[Captain Mode][Debate area-poll] Who should decide which weapon the bots use, the player or the AI?

[Terco_Viejo]

I open this thread only to quantify the players' interest in a simple question​

Who should decide which weapon the bots use, the player or the AI?

For those who are familiar with the previous installments, you will know that there were commands for the purpose of exclusive use of weapons in SP. In MP section we had f.e. the commander mode (similar to the current captain mode) in Napoleonic Wars in which the player had this tactical option.

At the beginning of the 2019 closed beta so many other players that we began to experiment with Captain mode, we put on the table of debate the desire to bring back an order button to change weapons in a way analogous to previous installments or reconverted into an updated 2.0 version. This was my thread then ( Weapon Change button ).

After the last statements, the devs are still betting so that the AI has more decision power over the player.

AI makes the decision depending on who it is attacking.

(source)

Parallel to the MP section, this button in my eyes is equally important for the SP section; but I would like to know different opinions.

Without the slightest intention to polemize or generate controversy, I would like to bring this question back to the table.

I open a debate and a poll:

 

[AxiosXiphos]

I mean... both would be nice? I can't really vote on that poll. I like the A.I. changing weapons depending on the enemy it faces. But yes a 'force weapon' option would be brilliant.

 

[Vattghern]

What about adding a “change weapon as will” option and an option to manually select weapons by the player. As it seems to me, this is the best way. Since putting the choice of weapons under the control of AI means weakening the player's influence on the course of the battle, and making the battles more monotonous. In addition, no matter how good the AI is, there will always be a non-standard situation in which the player would find a non-standard solution for it, which the AI could not do. There are also many commonplace situations where manual switching can be annoying then you could use the automatic weapon selection option. In general, I am in favor of both possibilities.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

What about adding a “change weapon as will” option and an option to manually select weapons by the player. As it seems to me, this is the best way. Since putting the choice of weapons under the control of AI means weakening the player's influence on the course of the battle, and making the battles more monotonous. In addition, no matter how good the AI is, there will always be a non-standard situation in which the player would find a non-standard solution for it, which the AI could not do. There are also many commonplace situations where manual switching can be annoying then you could use the automatic weapon selection option. In general, I am in favor of both possibilities.

It was precisely this action that formed part of the weapons orders.

 

[vfkaseke]

It was precisely this action that formed part of the weapons orders.

Yes, but I think we would need a couple more commands than just that. I think the essential ones are probably:
-Use blunt
-Use cutting (or something to that effect)
-Use polearms
-Shield toggle (for some of the heavy infantry that have bastard weapons, as well as some of the cavalry, to switch between 2h and 1h mode, as well as some of the units that have polearms)
-Use weapons at will

There are a lot of situations in captain where dictating whether they use weapon in a certain way can make or break the battle. Cavalry for example completely breaks some units by making them switch to spears and back to other weapons and thus getting overwhelmed by the enemy infantry, or getting shredded by arrow fire when in shield wall.

 

[Moton]

Could you add a "both" option. Since the majority of the time I am content with my mens choice of weapon but sometimes I would like to have some control over it.

 

[Thiil]

Could you add a "both" option. Since the majority of the time I am content with my mens choice of weapon but sometimes I would like to have some control over it.

+1

 

[Vattghern]

It was precisely this action that formed part of the weapons orders.

This is what we need. I already forgot that it was in warband.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Sorry if I don't answer directly to the quotes, but I would like to stand aside and let you guys as participants redirect the discussion around, what would be fun?... what options would be feasible?... what not; what usefulness...etc.

 

[Moton]

Well one thing that needs to happen before any of this happens is that cavalry needs a rework so your bots are more effective. A skillfull cav player at the moment does most effect when he charges into the battle making enemy AI's change weapon to spear or whatever anticav weapon they have wich gives allies a clear upper hand in the fight. If we get the option to force weapons on AI's the only thing cav is good for is archers and maybe other cav.

Another side note is that I think your AI's needs to stay closer to you when you charge because very often they are so far behind that when you've done your damage and come out on the other side of the enemies and changed course the enemies run into some stupid spears or something because they're taking the fastest route to you.

 

[Rycon Caldestan]

Yes, but I think we would need a couple more commands than just that. I think the essential ones are probably:
-Use blunt
-Use cutting (or something to that effect)
-Use polearms
-Shield toggle (for some of the heavy infantry that have bastard weapons, as well as some of the cavalry, to switch between 2h and 1h mode, as well as some of the units that have polearms)
-Use weapons at will

There are a lot of situations in captain where dictating whether they use weapon in a certain way can make or break the battle. Cavalry for example completely breaks some units by making them switch to spears and back to other weapons and thus getting overwhelmed by the enemy infantry, or getting shredded by arrow fire when in shield wall.

MOAR choices. Agreed

 

[ParzivaI]

The player always.. I can give you an example on how this is important..
Battania savages for example you can pick the falx/Rhomphaia or the hammer, the falx has a faster swing ratio and is better to deal with inf with lower armour ex (ranged units and other 2h units).. The hammer on the other hand is slower but deals blunt damaged and is good against armoured units (legionary/sergenats) etc
I switch it up depending on the situation and agaisnt what faction I am playing.. I do not believe the A.I is smart enought to choose this.
And this applies to every single unit.. if A.I was in command of its won equip there would be some weird Sh*t like khan guards with glaives and shields or lancers with glaives and shields, and other weird stuff

 

[matamor]

+1 Player already decides which perks to use. It should be granted option to decide which primary melee weapon to choose. (Toggle button F3-F6?).

AIS. From my experience, as infantry with spears, if I command them to charge a CAV unit around them, they use spears. But what happens if it's mixed with CAV and another infantry enemy unit around? Well they use spears engaging fight VS both enemy units.

 

[Thiil]

+1 Player already decides which perks to use. It should be granted option to decide which primary melee weapon to choose. (Toggle button F3-F6?).

AIS. From my experience, as infantry with spears, if I command them to charge a CAV unit around them, they use spears. But what happens if it's mixed with CAV and another infantry enemy unit around? Well they use spears engaging fight VS both enemy units.

Yes. If there is a melee blobl-fight going, just park your horse in the middle, enemy will switch to spears and get killed by your teams infantry ez

 

[Super Jew]

Player control of AI using their weapons would definitely be game changing and add more skill to the gamemode. Also, using pikes for shock units will be useful since before it was to big of a risk that cavalry can pull your AI's pikes out during melee fights.

 

[MP_Erik]

Player should always have the last word but AI should have a solid grasp on what weapons are appropriate in what situation. In captain I see shockinfantry using pikes in melee far too often.

 

[dijiTurk]

Where is the 3rd option? We dont know how good it would be. Not yet.
I select 3rd option, unsure.

 

[vfkaseke]

Well one thing that needs to happen before any of this happens is that cavalry needs a rework so your bots are more effective. A skillfull cav player at the moment does most effect when he charges into the battle making enemy AI's change weapon to spear or whatever anticav weapon they have wich gives allies a clear upper hand in the fight. If we get the option to force weapons on AI's the only thing cav is good for is archers and maybe other cav.

I disagree. Cavalry would also be good for supporting the infantry fight by being a distraction and charging them in the back. I think at the moment cavalry is just too powerful to the point of some classes (like light archers) being completely useless in the game mode.

 

[Moton]

I disagree. Cavalry would also be good for supporting the infantry fight by being a distraction and charging them in the back. I think at the moment cavalry is just too powerful to the point of some classes (like light archers) being completely useless in the game mode.

I'm not saying that they should be OP, but I mean it's rare that your bots gets even one kill when charging into the enemies and you will still have that clear counter wich is the spear or pike that is super effective versus cav. I am a heavy infantary main btw and I still think cav is useless for the most part.

 

[Younes]

Just give us both options