[Captain mode] Archers have no counter

[Brandis.]

I agree, killing randoms proves nothing. I haven't played in 3+ months but from what I have gathered (from people opinions and watching game play) archers are as effective as they were before 1.5. Like @Ling* said, the four clans who have been apart of the tests haven't been committing to the archer strategy. I know banning cavalry was a **** idea at making archers better. Maybe Ling should make it so he calls the strategy for both teams and then it will be up to the team to decide how to make it work.

I asked my team to go kite every round, to their annoyance lol.

Yeah, learning if archers are good with no cav isn't really helpful, because there will always be cav. However, they seem average even if they do get time to shoot.

 

[Ulfkarl]

If the enemy team is competent at all, archers are gonna do nothing to you. One cav rambo can nullify the archers completely, taking a whole unit out of the fight, while having their bots join the infantry fight with the inf blob. If a spear player hangs next to the archer, that's one more unit out of the melee fight. If the whole team hangs around the archers, the archers are not gonna be able to get shots off properly, and the team is just going into melee with what is now basically just a weaker melee class.

you are absolutely wrong if you think archers are a weaker melee class, they are the strongest melee class, they have a lot of armor, and two handed weapons, 9 archers can kill 20 varyags in just melee, so EZ

 

[vfkaseke]

you are absolutely wrong if you think archers are a weaker melee class, they are the strongest melee class, they have a lot of armor, and two handed weapons, 9 archers can kill 20 varyags in just melee, so EZ

Khans are the exception here, and even they get overwhelmed by numbers at a point. They are best used as support for melee as well, since the need a lot of bodies to draw aggro to stay alive long enough in a melee fight. They are more or less Khuzaits shock unit anyways, to supplement the fact that Khuzait doesn't actually have any.

 

[Olaf The Cruel]

You're right, I shouldn't have focused on the kills aspect so much. The first screenshot is against randoms, which is basically useless. There's nothing more to say beyond that.

That said: supporting your presupposition with handpicked best-case-scenarios proves nothing.

The second screenshot has two variables benefiting archers heavily: the best map for archers against the faction with the worst cav. Assuming random maps/factions and that archer comp works on Akkalat+Jawwali against Battania, that's a 5.5% chance. Additionally, you can't be Sturgia or Vlandia, which don't kite very well, chopping that down to 3.3%. The example is the single best possibility to play archers, and it occurs 3.3% of the time.

If they played archer comps 10 matches in a row and won more than 5 there'd be an argument.


If you posted every match where you played archers against a team, that would be useful.

I'm not a rapper.

On WoV, it's not intended to be a slight, if you're presenting data on something you need to mention every factor, and that one team is (most likely) better than another is a significant factor.

"Hey, Just wanted to say thx for the opportunity to play in the test games. We had great fun. We were hoping to win at least a round or two, winning a few matches vs such good teams, was very unexpected xD We are all looking forward to the actual tournament!" -- WoV

In their own words, KoV is a better team.

Hi, just want to clarify some things about our cap mode clan.

We were about 11 friends that created a clan because we were so tired of playing random games, that had no teamwork or tactics. There have been some confusion to how and when it began, because we could not figure out a clan name. After long time and a vote we tagged up first, just before they implemented the clan functions in the game.

Now we are way past 20 members, we are small, and are growing slowly, just after our plan.
I would call WoV a hyper active clan. We play so much, because we simply love this game mode and want to help TW with testing it.

About KoV vS WoV ...We did never meet in the test games. But we have played many, many times against each other in random clan matches. And every time we play vs them, you can be sure there will be action. KoV plays with very good communication, uses complex tactics. While WoV is more to one army, counting on numbers. I think its more or less even, but still with a big advances to KoV. Their "Death by a 1000 cut's" tactic you should be aware of. So yes, I guess KoV is the better team. Or maybe I am just being humble, so you will underestimate us on the battlefield xD

Oh, and about archers. TW, give us 1.4.x archers back, then encrypt the code and throw away the key, so NO ONE can ever f..ck with them again..thx..

 

[Brandis.]

Hi, just want to clarify some things about our cap mode clan.

We were about 11 friends that created a clan because we were so tired of playing random games, that had no teamwork or tactics. There have been some confusion to how and when it began, because we could not figure out a clan name. After long time and a vote we tagged up first, just before they implemented the clan functions in the game.

Now we are way past 20 members, we are small, and are growing slowly, just after our plan.
I would call WoV a hyper active clan. We play so much, because we simply love this game mode and want to help TW with testing it.

About KoV vS WoV ...We did never meet in the test games. But we have played many, many times against each other in random clan matches. And every time we play vs them, you can be sure there will be action. KoV plays with very good communication, uses complex tactics. While WoV is more to one army, counting on numbers. I think its more or less even, but still with a big advances to KoV. Their "Death by a 1000 cut's" tactic you should be aware of. So yes, I guess KoV is the better team. Or maybe I am just being humble, so you will underestimate us on the battlefield xD

Oh, and about archers. TW, give us 1.4.x archers back, then encrypt the code and throw away the key, so NO ONE can ever f..ck with them again..thx..

Thanks I understand that better now.

I know some of you guys are really great players, and definitely a team to look out for. In my personal experience, I know that KoV has been around since the start of EA and I've played against them a lot and they're a very good team, and one of the best archer teams. I haven't gone against WoV yet except in the tournament with some strange rules.

And yeah, as you pointed out, that wasn't a tournament game, so neither team was probably trying their hardest to win because it was just a random queue match.

Wayne posted some bad circumstantial evidence and I was trying to pick it apart in every way that I could.

 

[Ulfkarl]

Khans are the exception here, and even they get overwhelmed by numbers at a point. They are best used as support for melee as well, since the need a lot of bodies to draw aggro to stay alive long enough in a melee fight. They are more or less Khuzaits shock unit anyways, to supplement the fact that Khuzait doesn't actually have any.

to be a shock unit in bannerlord they need to have less than 20 armor, look at berserkers, savages, menavs, and even guards, they have barely any armor, but strong two handed melee weapon, khans and fians **** on those rules, they have the armor of a heavy shield infantry, the attack of a shock unit and ranged sniper attacks... I really don't understand the taleworlds fetish for archers making them like demigods, better for everything in battle, in all strategy games I have played in my life, the basic rule to balance archers is to making them weak in melee, so you need
Also the lack of shock infantry in khuzait it perfectly balanced with their strong and massive rabble troops, best cavalry and horse archers in the game, spear infantry with heavy mace is so strong. They really don't need a shock infantry if you ask me.

 

[Brandis.]

We held the finals for the No-Cav Captain experimental tournament. Everything was ideal for archers:

• No cav, their hard counter
• Largest map in the game (Jawwali)
• Experienced team with lots of practice on archers
• Enemy team had to run 2 archers, hurting their rush potential
• Enemy team has low practice dealing with archer comps

Guess what happened? Yeah, obviously, archers got f******. It's a useless class at the moment.

You'd have to ban heavy cav, light cav, heavy infantry, light infantry, and skirmishers in order to make them viable in the current gamestate.

 

[Tabitja]

Our games KoV vs BTL, they defeated us and we defeated them with archers several times last tourney. I'm not here to argue. Just pointing out. They need some buffs. they do not suck.

Deriad is a hell for archers though. We played Jawwali and Akkalat against BTL, very fun pew pew games.

@Olaf The Cruel thanks for your kind words. You guys are way way better then a few months ago, getting better every day.

 

[Spottswoode]

We held the finals for the No-Cav Captain experimental tournament. Everything was ideal for archers:

• No cav, their hard counter
• Largest map in the game (Jawwali)
• Experienced team with lots of practice on archers
• Enemy team had to run 2 archers, hurting their rush potential
• Enemy team has low practice dealing with archer comps

Guess what happened? Yeah, obviously, archers got f******. It's a useless class at the moment.

You'd have to ban heavy cav, light cav, heavy infantry, light infantry, and skirmishers in order to make them viable in the current gamestate.

You guys did seem to just plan to just charge with your archers in hold fire from the get go... I know the map I saw you play on isn't amazing for archers (deriad)... But surely that match strat is not what your basing archers usefulness on. Was pretty sad to watch it unfold like that.

Edit: was the match I saw you posted on YT... I see your talking about another map. My bad

 

[Ulfkarl]

You guys did seem to just plan to just charge with your archers in hold fire from the get go... I know the map I saw you play on isn't amazing for archers (deriad)... But surely that match strat is not what your basing archers usefulness on. Was pretty sad to watch it unfold like that.

Edit: was the match I saw you posted on YT... I see your talking about another map. My bad

is there any way to watch those matches? people here talk about tournaments a lot but I have never seen one where do they stream it?

 

[Spottswoode]

@Ulfkarl that's one of them I watched

 

[Spottswoode]

I think what is with thinking about in this discussion is the value of your archers is directly related to the way the rest of your team fights with them. The position the archers take, the position you infantry take, the way you respond to the direction of the enemy charge, the attempt you make to keep your archers position hidden until you feel it is advantageous to fire etc etc. Yes the enemy can counter archers very efficiently, but also yes you can create a situation where your archers put the enemy in a very bad position. Archers are not always taking kills, sometimes they are just softening up the enemy so badly that when the infantry hit them they melt like butter

 

[Brandis.]

You guys did seem to just plan to just charge with your archers in hold fire from the get go... I know the map I saw you play on isn't amazing for archers (deriad)... But surely that match is not what your basing archers usefulness on. Was pretty sad to watch it unfold like that

Oh, we had a finals this weekend that is separate from the youtube video.

This weekend we played against BTL on Jawwali Aserai mirror, which is the game I'm referring to.

 

[Spottswoode]

Oh, we had a finals this weekend that is separate from the youtube video.

This weekend we played against BTL on Jawwali Aserai mirror, which is the game I'm referring to.

Yeah sorry about jumping the gun on that with the initial post. I'm in BTL but haven't seen that one yet, keen to see it!

 

[Brandis.]

Yeah sorry about jumping the gun on that with the initial post. I'm in BTL but haven't seen that one yet, keen to see it!

Just finished processing:

I would have liked both teams to try and run 4-5 archer kite more, but we both wanted to win and archers don't have enough value or reliability compared to infantry rushes.

 

[Spottswoode]

I would have liked both teams to try and run 4-5 archer kite more, but we both wanted to win and archers don't have enough value or reliability compared to infantry rushes.

Thanks so much for posting mate! They were fun fights to watch! Less reliability is a really good way for describing archers! I guess you could say that reduced reliability comes from the quickly changing angles of fights and being pushed on and shut down. You guys were using yours really nicely to soften up prior to the main fights, wrapping your arrows around to keep an angle till the last second then pushing in on mele when the angle was lost.

No doubt in the world in infantry blob / rush is powerful as hell. But if we keep fighting these fights we will be getting better and better at extending time before engaging and the usefulness of our arrows! I look forward to joining these sort of unit restricted clan battles.. and also terrified of meeting you in one v one with my ping issues haha