[Captain mode] Archers have no counter

Currently viewing this thread:

Ulfkarl

Recruit
Current version of the game e1.5.5 archers in captain mode have no counter, people are just spamming them, not even cav can do anything against them, before it was shield infantry the perfect counter for archers but now they are worthless, slower than a snail, they are in a sad spot right now. I have some suggestions to fix this balance problem:

*Make archers slower.

*Remove two handed weapons to archers, they can kill in one or two shot in melee the best infantry units.

*If you don't want to make shield infantry fast and able to do something against archers, then why not use Skirmishers? at the moment they have no role the battles right now, they are worthless in captain mode, I suggest them to make them a perfect counter to archers, keeping their shields and faster run speed, remove snail walk while shieldwall on them, make javs stronger and usefull.

Thats all I can think for now.
 
Last edited:

Spottswoode

Recruit
I'm sorry to say and i hope this isn't offensive, but you might need to strategize better with your team, bring enough shields and at least 1 cav unit with a shielded infantry army (and some shock / skirmish) to beat the archers. It takes timing and technique which is how it should be. You dont need to sit in shield wall for the charge if you do it correctly, the cav will stop the archers from raining hell if they doi their job right too. You need to know that when the charge starts on archers it is going to be followed through with.. if your team is charging and stopping and charging and stopping your definitely taking a dirt nap

If your team falls for all the other distractions on the field (besides the archers) then the archers will decimate you, if your team lazer focuses those archers down while dealing with any other threats as they become a problem then its game over for the archers.

The problem may be that your cav players are doing solo cav runs, (trying to get kills but not strategizing on helping the infantry close the distance), Solo cav attacking archers wont stop archers from firing into infantry lines, however if he uses his cav correctly, he will tie up the archers long enough to get your infantry in close and its game over.

Archers that are setup are extremely dangerous and need to be dealt with quickly or keep your army hidden until they are close enough to do a
coordinated charge... in 1.5.5 you cant sleep on archers any more like in the old version.

I think this is how it should be. Slightly faster shield wall yes, but still considerably slower than it was. (shield wall SEEMS to be much more effective at stopping both arrows and mele hits so i think the fact that it is slower has been effectively countered by making it a powerful defensive measure. I find most of the time if you charge shields in line formation at archers they will make it without being too beaten up... they throw up their shields every now and then to block occasional arrows... this tends to get them close enough to the archers to force them to stop firing then its done.

If the archers retreat and you are a very slow unit chasing them... you have to make the decision fast... keep pressing them or back off and let someone else take over... if you press them for miles and then give up when you are far away from support, you are playing into their trap, when you turn to go back to your army after giving up the chase they will turn and decimate you.

Being beaten by an archer army is demoralizing, but you do have to be on point to beat them, by the same token the archer army needs to be on point to win as well... so its really up to who is working together best and who is playing sloppy
 
Last edited:

Ulfkarl

Recruit
I'm sorry to say and i hope this isn't offensive, but you might need to strategize better with your team, bring enough shields and at least 1 cav unit with a shielded infantry army (and some shock / skirmish) to beat the archers. It takes timing and technique which is how it should be. You dont need to sit in shield wall for the charge if you do it correctly, the cav will stop the archers from raining hell if they doi their job right too. You need to know that when the charge starts on archers it is going to be followed through with.. if your team is charging and stopping and charging and stopping your definitely taking a dirt nap

If your team falls for all the other distractions on the field (besides the archers) then the archers will decimate you, if your team lazer focuses those archers down while dealing with any other threats as they become a problem then its game over for the archers.

The problem may be that your cav players are doing solo cav runs, (trying to get kills but not strategizing on helping the infantry close the distance), Solo cav attacking archers wont stop archers from firing into infantry lines, however if he uses his cav correctly, he will tie up the archers long enough to get your infantry in close and its game over.

Archers that are setup are extremely dangerous and need to be dealt with quickly or keep your army hidden until they are close enough to do a
coordinated charge... in 1.5.5 you cant sleep on archers any more like in the old version.

I think this is how it should be. Slightly faster shield wall yes, but still considerably slower than it was. (shield wall SEEMS to be much more effective at stopping both arrows and mele hits so i think the fact that it is slower has been effectively countered by making it a powerful defensive measure. I find most of the time if you charge shields in line formation at archers they will make it without being too beaten up... they throw up their shields every now and then to block occasional arrows... this tends to get them close enough to the archers to force them to stop firing then its done.

If the archers retreat and you are a very slow unit chasing them... you have to make the decision fast... keep pressing them or back off and let someone else take over... if you press them for miles and then give up when you are far away from support, you are playing into their trap, when you turn to go back to your army after giving up the chase they will turn and decimate you.

Being beaten by an archer army is demoralizing, but you do have to be on point to beat them, by the same token the archer army needs to be on point to win as well... so its really up to who is working together best and who is playing sloppy
all what you said is in a scenario vs 1 archer troop only, I already know all of that, I have 147 hours in captain mode only I dont play single player and skirmish, I was talking about a team spamming all archers, when you succesfully get close to an archer enemy troop you have another 3 troops of archers shooting you from all angles, and line formation + charge wont save you from that, we need skirmishers to be more usefull and archer hunters, that would be much more interesting
 

Spottswoode

Recruit
all what you said is in a scenario vs 1 archer troop only, I already know all of that, I have 147 hours in captain mode only I dont play single player and skirmish, I was talking about a team spamming all archers, when you succesfully get close to an archer enemy troop you have another 3 troops of archers shooting you from all angles, and line formation + charge wont save you from that, we need skirmishers to be more usefull and archer hunters, that would be much more interesting

Absolutely... It's tough, they have setup well in the scenario above... If your team is working for the same goal and you are not running mostly shock troops and have cavalry... You will be able to do it. But in your scenario you are fighting against a team who is trying to make it at hard as possible and if they are spread out nicely they are doing it well... So it will be hard.. you need to be on point... If half your army are not charging then it's a bad day for you... If your team is on point you will get the win.

If you have your whole army charging 1 out of 4 or 6 units of archers then yes you will get shot in the back a lot. Spread your charge, or even better send a unit around to flank from their spawn side.. This will have to be timed and communicated but it can be very effective if done well
 
Last edited:

Ling*

Squire
all what you said is in a scenario vs 1 archer troop only, I already know all of that, I have 147 hours in captain mode only I dont play single player and skirmish, I was talking about a team spamming all archers, when you succesfully get close to an archer enemy troop you have another 3 troops of archers shooting you from all angles, and line formation + charge wont save you from that, we need skirmishers to be more usefull and archer hunters, that would be much more interesting
Skirmishers should be buffed I can agree with. I can even somewhat agree with taking away 2 handed weapons from heavy archers. What I do not agree with is that Archers are in any way shape or form unstoppable or overpowered. They are incredibly easy to counter with the proper team set up and positioning. To qualify: I have over 1,000 wins in captain mode and about 800 of my 1200 hours on bannerlord have been exclusively captain mode matches. Even an infantry spam with no cavalry can be enough to counterplay archers if played correctly. Before this current 1.5.5 meta as im sure you are aware was a 2handed shock troop spam fest, fortunately that is no longer the case due to archers actually being somewhat useful again in this update. I think you will be happier when they adjust the shield wall formation speeds to be faster in 1.5.6 as that will return some mobility to shield units and should help you combat archers even more. As it stands infantry in line formation can easily outrun archers, slowing down archers even further would be a terrible balance decision.

I'm glad to see more fellow captain players on the forums! If you ever would like to participate in any competitive Captain Mode events such as the upcoming Season 2 of the Captain's League come join our discord and say hello :smile: https://discord.gg/SSyujWU
 
Last edited:

Spottswoode

Recruit
So much of this counter (once the enemy is setup) comes down to the cavalry doing their job with all their remaining horses working with them. If the cav player is solely focused on his own kill count and is not focused on continuously annoying the archers keeping them from firing or keep them focused on firing at cav instead of infantry then it will be significantly harder to close the distance.

A lot (not all) of cav players who park and do solo cav runs do not have the ability to shut down archers properly. This kind of player may not be able to be relied on to do the job required to win in the scenario you are referring to. Unfortunately it is often hard but not impossible to convince them to try to be more strategic in their charges.

Re: Khans with 2h... They are dangerous as hell in mele... But don't forget in captain they can also double as the only kz shock units... So this is intended I believe. One shield unit moving against 2 glaive Khan units is going to get destroyed
 
Last edited:

Ulfkarl

Recruit
Skirmishers should be buffed I can agree with. I can even somewhat agree with taking away 2 handed weapons from heavy archers. What I do not agree with is that Archers are in any way shape or form unstoppable or overpowered. They are incredibly easy to counter with the proper team set up and positioning. To qualify: I have over 1,000 wins in captain mode and about 800 of my 1200 hours on bannerlord have been exclusively captain mode matches. Even an infantry spam with no cavalry can be enough to counterplay archers if played correctly. Before this current 1.5.5 meta as im sure you are aware was a 2handed shock troop spam fest, fortunately that is no longer the case due to archers actually being somewhat useful again in this update. I think you will be happier when they adjust the shield wall formation speeds to be faster in 1.5.6 as that will return some mobility to shield units and should help you combat archers even more. As it stands infantry in line formation can easily outrun archers, slowing down archers even further would be a terrible balance decision.

I'm glad to see more fellow captain players on the forums! If you ever would like to participate in any competitive Captain Mode events such as the upcoming Season 2 of the Captain's League come join our discord and say hello :smile: https://discord.gg/SSyujWU
the problem with line formation towards archers is the AI is too dumb they don't block anything and heavy infantry dies like if they were shock infantry, shields are just an ornament for them in line formation, also thanks for the discord invation I will check it out
 

Mabons

Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I get a feeling the people saying "Archers can be beaten by tactics and co-ordination" literally never played without clanmates. Trying to beat 6 archers back in beta as a solo player with other solo players, it was literally impossible. Your shield only covers the front, all they had to do was split on either side and they beat you easily, you can't expect your teammates to understand what your going to do.

No, the solution to this issue is not to nerf archers but give some tools to co-ordinate with the randoms. I doubt a 6 archer team will see competitive play because it's very easy to deal with if you co-ordinate but I still have nightmares of pressuring one unit of archers and being shot in the side by other archers that my teammates either completely ignored and charged the same unit I am or decided to stand still/retreat for some reason.
 

Spottswoode

Recruit
I get a feeling the people saying "Archers can be beaten by tactics and co-ordination" literally never played without clanmates. Trying to beat 6 archers back in beta as a solo player with other solo players, it was literally impossible. Your shield only covers the front, all they had to do was split on either side and they beat you easily, you can't expect your teammates to understand what your going to do.

No, the solution to this issue is not to nerf archers but give some tools to co-ordinate with the randoms. I doubt a 6 archer team will see competitive play because it's very easy to deal with if you co-ordinate but I still have nightmares of pressuring one unit of archers and being shot in the side by other archers that my teammates either completely ignored and charged the same unit I am or decided to stand still/retreat for some reason.
I play on the NA server at the worst possible time for population... I rarely play with my clan because they are all on at NA prime time when I am at work or asleep. I am a vocal player, captain requires teamwork so I have taken it upon myself to be vocal in matches where no one else is willing to be. Some people actively go against a strategy the team of randoms is trying to execute... They can do what they want.. the other 4 players often are interested enough in winning to try a strategy they are happy with the sound of. If we are all trying we have a chance. This is the nature of random matches. If you don't try to co ordinate the best you can, no you will not be able to beat a well organised team of archers with space to work.

I hardly play on my much closer and better ping east asia server because usually there is a language barrier. The game is much better with coms and text will do the job just fine if people are willing to talk

(Not aimed at you, just generally speaking) If people are playing captain and not actively trying to strategise, then it's a bit rough to point the finger at any units for not being good enough. It's the team that is not working on the same goal and therefore will almost always fail. And yes you are 100% right. We need a better coms in game. I hope people look to discord in the interim and try to create a robust friends list of people they can group up with who they line how they play... This will help a lot of you do not want to be in a clan
 

Wayne2077

Recruit
I never had a problem playing vs archers in a new patch.
Randoms like to F1 F3, that's why they suffer.
Full cav and full archers are the most easiest composition to beat, whether you play with teammates or not.
 

Thiil

Recruit
I never had a problem playing vs archers in a new patch.
Randoms like to F1 F3, that's why they suffer.
Full cav and full archers are the most easiest composition to beat, whether you play with teammates or not.
+1 to this.
Got 1000+ wins in Cpts Mode and almost exclusively play that. I do not share the opinion of the OP.
Ofc. he has 3 groups of archers shooting him if he allows himself to be baited
 

FARIAS

Recruit
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Sorry but a good team can destroy archers very easly, i find archers kinda week, dumb and slow...with the last few updates
 
True...if CAV is hunting them consequently and not doing hero stuff on their own, Archers are no problem. I get creamed playing archer because sometimes I am left on my own by my teammates (and maybe because I am a n00b). And even when charged by INF like the berserkers I mostly need more than one arrow for the kill resulting that they reach my formation and decimate them horribly if not wiping it out. Playing versus a coordinated team is far more difficult no matter the units they take. 6 archers can be overcome or be a pain - this depends on the cohesion and communication of the opposing team, not on just the possibility of fielding 6 archers.
 

knight92

Sergeant
With the last patch, after removing the spear from archer, if you are a decent cavalry player you could take down an archer unit going alone without any effort or you can just run in circle around them to draw their fire while the infantry charge, i don't see them as OP in the other hand i think they should increase their speed expecially light archer.
I think the last patch changes were on the good direction but the AI is still to easily exploitable by the human player, and unfortunatly most of the captain mode skill right now is know how to exploit the AI better than the enemy team, is that why in my opinion giving the player more control troops could only improve this mode.
 

vfkaseke

Regular
WB
all what you said is in a scenario vs 1 archer troop only, I already know all of that, I have 147 hours in captain mode only I dont play single player and skirmish, I was talking about a team spamming all archers, when you succesfully get close to an archer enemy troop you have another 3 troops of archers shooting you from all angles, and line formation + charge wont save you from that, we need skirmishers to be more usefull and archer hunters, that would be much more interesting
So take the 2 flags they're not at, and wait for the archers to come to you? It's easy enough even with full infantry and no cavalry. If you force the archers to approach you, you're gonna have the upper hand since they will have no possibilty of setting up. Also, if you're going against a full 6-stack using any of the useable units (cav, shock, heavy inf or heavy archers) you are most likely gonna be on the losing side. Being able to beat a coordinated team with pubs is gonna be next to impossible whatever their units choice.
 

.Brandis

Subforum Moderator
Current version of the game e1.5.5 archers in captain mode have no counter

This isn't correct. I have more hours on archers, but in solo queue random matches, my winrate on cavalry is much higher.

One bad cav player can nullify a skilled archer player just by riding in their general vicinity. However, a skilled cav player will very rarely be shut down by enemies even if the enemies have lots of anti-cav. In fact, that might help them as they force anti-cav weapons in a melee fight.

Archers are situational and reliant on their team and enemy, while playing cav is strong in almost every scenario if you use them correctly.

I get a feeling the people saying "Archers can be beaten by tactics and co-ordination" literally never played without clanmates. Trying to beat 6 archers back in beta as a solo player with other solo players, it was literally impossible. Your shield only covers the front, all they had to do was split on either side and they beat you easily, you can't expect your teammates to understand what your going to do.

No, the solution to this issue is not to nerf archers but give some tools to co-ordinate with the randoms. I doubt a 6 archer team will see competitive play because it's very easy to deal with if you co-ordinate but I still have nightmares of pressuring one unit of archers and being shot in the side by other archers that my teammates either completely ignored and charged the same unit I am or decided to stand still/retreat for some reason.

I play solo more than I play in stacks.

Archers were turbo broken back in beta, so it's not comparable. Also, if 6 archers was strong solo, we would see it more. You see random players asking for all rabble, shock, or shield units, but I have yet to see a teammate ask for 6 archers or seen it run on the enemy team. I play archer mostly on the current patch and I'm often asked to switch.

In competitive, we have seen and will probably see 4-2 archers-cav or 3-3 because if you have cav of your own to defend against cav, archers can work out. I'm not a fan of this from a game design perspective, because all of the spears and classic "anti-cav" are useless against cav except for protecting themselves.
 

Super Jew

Regular
WBNWVC
when you succesfully get close to an archer enemy troop you have another 3 troops of archers shooting you from all angles, and line formation + charge wont save you from that
I haven't played in 3 months but I refuse to believe that randoms have evolved into shooting from different positions. Like everybody else said, a good cavalry player can distract while the infantry can advance. Hopefully they revert the formation changes back to what they were before so that shield wall will be useful again in pushing archers.

*Remove two handed weapons to archers, they can kill in one or two shot in melee the best infantry units.
Having a shock unit follow a shield unit when pushing a group of archers has always worked to counter this.
 
I concur with Thistle - my experience is that you can only sell your life as dearly as possible. I play archers very often and have a negative kill/death ratio most times. A single unit of archers does not make enough impact especially versus shield inf. The damage output is ridiculous and your unit is squishy. Your influence grows with the skill of your teammates and coordination of actions...and for that I really miss a longer time to discuss in team lobby the tactics or strategy to do. It is especially important for randomly assigned teams as clans have other means. 15 seconds are too short - I would have 1 minute and a map shown where you could click on and others would see, what you mean. Maybe sometimes the game would have voice support for that so I can actually talk with my teammates (and I know I will hear many things I do not want to hear). But archers are not overpowered because they are archers.
 
Top Bottom