Can we do something about the khuzaits?

[bigbalzzz]

You don't lay siege to a single castle for over 6 years if you don't want to conquer it, not to mention, the Mongols attacked Song for more than 4 decades: they CLEARLY wanted to conquer it -- but they could not.

100 thousand Mongols under Kubilai laid siege to the defense of Xiangyang between 1267-1273 for 6 years. They failed to take it. In the spring of 1273, the Mongols finally acquired the tech and engineers from the Middle East to produce their own version of Western-style counterweight trebuchets (unlike the less effective, torsion trebuchets used in the Far East), which finally brought the defenses down and the city was captured after 6 YEARS.

From this point on, Mongol armies started recruiting infantry and engineers from their conquered territories in northern China and they became a significant part of the Mongol army that began to lose the composition the "original" Mongols had when they were just all cavalry. Mongols after crossing the Xiangyang defense line began to field at least 40% of infantry in their armies, to swiftly besiege and capture the remianing Song fortifications.

So, even the Mongols clearly had problems. CLEARLY.

their biggest problem was civil wars for game play reason i dont want khuzait seiging to be nerfed but civil wars to be added and khuzait faction to split always among each other

 

[black_bulldog]

I will say this about the Khurzaits it's amazing to watch as 100+ horse archers skirmish. It's like watching sharks circle their prey.

 

[Odione]

Devs working on it. They just need to fix the flowers and some trees first. We all know mother earth is nr 1 right! Save the planet people!

 

[Apocal]

I've specifically stated that steppe people only entered China AFTER the Chinese basically tore themselves up from the inside. When their empires were functioning normally, sorry, but all the steppe people could muster were occasional raiding parties along the border frontiers.

...

The Mongols, at the prime of Genghis Khan, took 23 years to finally break through Jin and conquer them, because they've met tremendous resistance in the Chinese cities. Under a normal situation, no steppe leader has enough political power to put their tribe through a war that takes decades. BECAUSE THE MONGOLS WERE AN ANOMALY IN THEIR CONSOLIDATION OF POWER these campaigns were possible -- which I have also mentioned.

You couldn't. That's not how socio-political conditions work.

The fact that steppe people could field so many cavalry, comes from their overall material situation. Their life style that produces such a strong field army, in turn, makes it impossible for them to maintain a consolidated military force for long enough a time to run yearslong campaigns to really conquer anything. Which is why the process of the Mongols coming to power, and forming a tight political control under the power of the Khan was something unprecedented and unseen in the steppes.

Because the Khan held such unusual power, he could assert enough will to keep the army besieging major fortifications despite heavy losses with no progress, for years.

More than a thousand years prior to the Mongols, the Xiongnu were a steppe confederation of comparable power and cohesion. Their "raiding parties" were tens or hundreds of thousands strong and while you could say they were concentrated around frontier areas, the Han Empire at the time was a very large state when speaking geographically, even if considerably smaller than modern China.

For one example: In the fourteenth year of Emperor Wen’s reign the Shanyu led a force of 140,000 horsemen though the Chaona and Xiao passes, killing Sun Ang, the chief commandment of Beidi province, and carrying off large numbers of peoples and animals. Eventually he rode as far as Penyang, sent a surprise force to break into and burn the Huizhong Palace, and dispatched scouts as far as the Palace of Sweets Springs in Yong [bringing them within eyesight of the capital].

To put this into terms more easily understood by this forum, it would be equivalent to raiding an area larger than entirety of England in 1066 except with more men than William the Conqueror and Harold fielded at the Battle of Hastings, combined. Then doubled. And then doubled again. The Xiongnu went from their the home on the Mongolian Plateau all the way to what the Han Empire itself considered the interior of their lands. And this was not a one-off event, but a persistent threat against the Han Empire for decades.

In other words, when speaking of his ability to create a unified steppe confederation, Ghengis Khan was unusual but not exceptional. There were other major steppe confederations of the Mongolian plateau, to say nothing of relatively stable, long-lasting steppe confederations elsewhere on the Eurasian landmass, such as the Turkic conquerors, the Parthians, the Cuman-Kipchaks, the Khazars, and others.

As for Bannerlord, canonically the Khuzaits figured out siege warfare under Urkhun, a few decades prior to the game's timeline. They also have foot archers, spearmen, cities, etc. They are basically half-sedentary already, so why shouldn't they be able to build siege engines? The Vikings, Kievan Rus and Celts weren't exactly known for their siegecraft but nobody complains that Sturgians or Battanians can siege stuff down.

 

[luisedgm]

Instead of nerfing Cav multiplier they should instead make a more detailed autobattle system
Cav vs infantry = +20%
Cav vs spear infantry = -20%
Cav vs pikes = -40%
etc...

 

[bigbalzzz]

Instead of nerfing Cav multiplier they should instead make a more detailed autobattle system
Cav vs infantry = +20%
Cav vs spear infantry = -20%
Cav vs pikes = -40%
etc...

cav vs spear +5%

 

[Because]

Personally in the dozen or so games I've played I've only once had the Khuzaits run riot (and even then it was over Sturgia and so it was just their turn really). Its always been the Vandians or Battanian's who were the ones that tended to dominate my games. Obviously only one example, but I've never had them snowball to the extent that others seem to and in most play throughs they just swap border towns with the Aserai and Northern Empire.

 

[Trauko]

250hrs. 6 saves.
In every gameplay the Khuzait singlehandedly destroy the Empire or the Sturgians within the first 3 years.
In one of them, I played as a vassal of the Northern empire, we couldnt keep up with the army spam.
1500 khuzait army > we win > another 1000 army > we barely win > we try to retake a town > the first army again with another 1500 men > we lose > the second army again with 1000 men again > no npc army can keep up > we lose 3 castles and 2 towns while Im recuiting > repeat.

 

[PeteSKTemplar]

Well usually when I fight any enemy after the battle I release captured lord to get relation and charm there is just one examption - if I capture a Khuzait noble I lock him to dungeon

But as was mentioned already by the time I can really make a difference they often already have too much in possesion.

Perhaps if possible devs could make that only warhorses would be counted for that autocalc bonus not regular horses so even T2 Khuzaits on horse would be good only for speed bonus on map but for autocalc only war horses should count if possible so just latest tiers would matter for autocalc bonus.

 

[Lord of Banners]

Khuzait absolutely need a nerf. I’ve tried on 1.4 beta to vassal under northern empire and regardless of what I do Khuzait take amprela Espinosa and syronea before I can help. Sometimes they get gaos and myzea as well. Needs rebalanced hard

 

[Brocephus]

I'm playing them now for the first time. Definitely ROFLstomping.

 

[Lord of Banners]

Idk if this will get seen but does anyone else think that cavalry should be more expensive to maintain?

 

[Apocal]

250hrs. 6 saves.
In every gameplay the Khuzait singlehandedly destroy the Empire or the Sturgians within the first 3 years.

It is something you are doing, assuming you mean in-game years (84 days). That would basically be chain-sieging every single fief, even if they started off at-war with each other and Khuzaits only have Northern Empire for starting war. I've seen factions disappear pretty quickly, but never due to only one foe, usually two but more likely three or four simultaneous wars.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Idk what it is that makes em so aggressively effective either because im not having problem facing em on equal forces with Sturgs on the battlefield (depending on the terrain ofc) and not with Empire and Aserai either. However they pretty much steamroll like no tomorrow for some reason which they should have an issue doing on castles compared to the others since that shouldn't be their strong side in theory. Are they having more commanders getting faster and effective recruits or something perhaps ?

 

[Bob Gnarly]

Khuzait are pretty much under control in my 1.3 playthrough through no effort on my part since I'm based on the west side of the map. They basically lost half their territory mainly to the empire, but Sturgia and Aserai have taken some land too.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Khuzait are pretty much under control in my 1.3 playthrough through no effort on my part since I'm based on the west side of the map. They basically lost half their territory mainly to the empire, but Sturgia and Aserai have taken some land too.

interesting. well we have some lands from em as well playing as Sturgs. But they have carved all the way to Battania in this one fending off Empire like nothing ^^

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Khuzait absolutely need a nerf. I’ve tried on 1.4 beta to vassal under northern empire and regardless of what I do Khuzait take amprela Espinosa and syronea before I can help. Sometimes they get gaos and myzea as well. Needs rebalanced hard

Just go take them back if you're a vassal? I understand not wanting the AI to wipe each other out and ruin the game and I'm glad they're working on it, but factions are going to take some stuff and it's not that hard to just take small elite force and compel them to sally out to undo whatever they do while you were... doing whatever other people do that take them so long to have competent army!
I guess I don't understand because early on AI really did snowball bad and they slowed it down. Now I think it is at least partially the players taking too long, but I'm all for some kind of pause option for if players want to just spend a lot of time and have the map stay pristine.

 

[Bob Gnarly]

interesting. well we have some lands from em as well playing as Sturgs. But they have carved all the way to Battania in this one fending off Empire like nothing ^^

Yeah, I'm just as surprised as you

In every other playthrough I've done, Khuzaits have been a dominate force.

 

[Maggot Toes]

Only my own experience, all the lords want to defect to them. When you keep capturing Vlandian, Sturgian, Imperial lords that are Khuzait vassals and all the mercenaries keep defecting back to them, I don't think the issue is cavalry.

 

[PeteSKTemplar]

I´ve just deleted my last campaign as Aserai. While we were fighting Southern Empire our forces decimated Khuzait just started war against both of us taking all what we got and finishing the Empire. I hoped the next war we push them back but they had almost 9k strenght while Aserain and all other factions were around 4,5k only Vlandia had nearly 6 but leader just made peace after losing one city so I knew I will not be able to change that.

I wish I had exported char with some stats and money to start for faction immediately for it takes too long to get some income, compagnions and especially biggest issue to me is to train those funy recruits to at least T3.

It is not first time I see somehow Khuzait are either very aggresive from the start usually vs Northern Empire sometimes immediately taking two cities but if they got to status quo then they seem like waiting to attack any neigbour who is weakened by a war so they just steamroll. But ofc this might be problem for any other faction timing its attack on weakend pray.

Perhaps prolonging sieges and failed ones could make massive desertions so those huge armies would be also a gamble that a siege is easy with huge numbers but if fails then army might be doomed at least by running out of moral or food (it should be both ways so not big army could starve out similar size of garison - right now I do not see any good in starving garisons). I fear ofc much of work with AI to make it work with that if implemented but right now seems like who has more numbers and more horses accomodated in peace time will just erase anyone depleted in war. Prolonging sieges could give some time for beaten faction and some risk to huge armies.