Can we do something about the khuzaits?

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I'm trying new things as I'm having crash problems in longer 1.4.1 games, so I'm going to try to derail the Khuzaits as a lone clan and see how they do. On my previous game I vassal for them and they were reedickyouless in 4-5 wars constantly and still expanding. So far Just a little tuff love has kept them in check, they expanded a bit but then lost it once I interfered.

Horse archers being strong is fine. Infinite rapidly-respawning horse archers is not fine.
Khuzait settlements could be set to generate recruits more slowly to balance things out.

Well they're not supposed to be spawning with anything, they need to go back to struggling like the player to build up their forces.
I wish they would rip off the AI band aids until player death, heritage/family and lord generation are fully implemented.... no such thing as a long game now, especially in beta where you need a new game every week.

 

[Nightdotexe]

1. Properly implement the Sturgian Trait and see how it works out (maybe it gives Sturg an edge and Khuz don't have a freebie at the beginning)
2. Properly implement the tactic skills for Lords that give +damage against cav and see how it works out.

Every other option is basically to early, since that stuff isn't implemented.

 

[xdj1nn]

1. Properly implement the Sturgian Trait and see how it works out (maybe it gives Sturg an edge and Khuz don't have a freebie at the beginning)
2. Properly implement the tactic skills for Lords that give +damage against cav and see how it works out.

Every other option is basically to early, since that stuff isn't implemented.

I guess that's because all perks will be overhauled into the new format of 2 branches for each perk level, meaning that most will likely change drastically.

 

[Sidrath]

Would definitely favour further nerfs to the Khuzaits - it's far too common to see them snowball ahead of everyone else. In 7 playthroughs, I've never see them die out as a faction. I've seen them snowball HARD every single time unless I was personally working on their containment. My favourite playthroughs (Vlandia) actually often stall because, even though we're doing very well, I'm too far away to stem the Khuzait tide, and I just know sooner or later I'll be facing a boring, mostly dichromatic map. At least as Southern Empire or Aserai, I can painstakingly bleed the Khuzait dry on every war and keep them in check.

Would strongly advise the devs to keep making changes to the Khuzait: significant reductions to the prosperity of the steppe settlements, maybe a nerf of the culture bonus to 5% map movement speed instead of 10%, further armour nerfs (now that those matter in 1.4.1 auto-calcs).

 

[xdj1nn]

Would definitely favour further nerfs to the Khuzaits - it's far too common to see them snowball ahead of everyone else. In 7 playthroughs, I've never see them die out as a faction. I've seen them snowball HARD every single time unless I was personally working on their containment. My favourite playthroughs (Vlandia) actually often stall because, even though we're doing very well, I'm too far away to stem the Khuzait tide, and I just know sooner or later I'll be facing a boring, mostly dichromatic map. At least as Southern Empire or Aserai, I can painstakingly bleed the Khuzait dry on every war and keep them in check.

Would strongly advise the devs to keep making changes to the Khuzait: significant reductions to the prosperity of the steppe settlements, maybe a nerf of the culture bonus to 5% map movement speed instead of 10%, further armour nerfs (now that those matter in 1.4.1 auto-calcs).

at this point nerfs will destroy the game, they need to buff others instead.

 

[Apocal]

I`m a sturgya (more like nords really) fan as well but it is just absolutely pointless at the moment to have any kind of army comprised solely of footmen. You`re basically shooting yourself in the foot multiple times. And the grind to actually make recruiting battanian fian noble lines from villages viable... it`s just not worth it in my opinion, not when you can get pallatine guard. But again, foot armies are a no no right now. I got like 200-220 horse arches with some 30-40 heavy cav, and I still get 6.2 - 6.6 speed, depending on how much food I carry or the number of sumpter horses. Make that army 250 foot soldiers only, and you`re gonna be in a world of pain (4.5 - maybe, if you bother with keeping 300 horses you get to a 5). Just no.

Armies of nothing but dismounted footmen being relatively less mobile is pretty accurate though. If you don't have ships, use horses.

1. Properly implement the Sturgian Trait and see how it works out (maybe it gives Sturg an edge and Khuz don't have a freebie at the beginning)

In all the playthroughs I've observed, the Khuzaits less commonly screw over the Sturgians. Their freebie is at the Northern Empire's expense most often, with the Southern Empire being the next runner-up and Aserai tying with Sturgia for a distant third-place. The most often thing that happens is Sturgia losing the western extension to both Vlandia and Battania. That's a pattern I see across screenshots other people post as well.

Secondly, Sturgia tends to do reasonably well in war against Khuzaits until they lose a doomstack (army around 900-1200+) in one of the deathtrap cities with locked-in corridors: Tyal, Varnovapol or Revyl. The speed bonus wouldn't help because those places are inescapable. If you are visiting or besieging any one of them, and a larger, more powerful army comes in behind you, regardless of your mapspeed, you cannot escape. Automatic welp.

It is only after that, Sturgia missing a full field army with multiple lords out of action for several days, that the Khuzaits were able to actually win a siege without breaking off or being interrupted by an army of approaching Sturgians.

 

[Nightdotexe]

Armies of nothing but dismounted footmen being relatively less mobile is pretty accurate though. If you don't have ships, use horses.



In all the playthroughs I've observed, the Khuzaits less commonly screw over the Sturgians. Their freebie is at the Northern Empire's expense most often, with the Southern Empire being the next runner-up and Aserai tying with Sturgia for a distant third-place. The most often thing that happens is Sturgia losing the western extension to both Vlandia and Battania. That's a pattern I see across screenshots other people post as well.

Secondly, Sturgia tends to do reasonably well in war against Khuzaits until they lose a doomstack (army around 900-1200+) in one of the deathtrap cities with locked-in corridors: Tyal, Varnovapol or Revyl. The speed bonus wouldn't help because those places are inescapable. If you are visiting or besieging any one of them, and a larger, more powerful army comes in behind you, regardless of your mapspeed, you cannot escape. Automatic welp.

It is only after that, Sturgia missing a full field army with multiple lords out of action for several days, that the Khuzaits were able to actually win a siege without breaking off or being interrupted by an army of approaching Sturgians.

I mean, I always see Tyal taken first, then Varnovapol and in my own 2 playthroughs with Sturgia, Khuzait was always the first to declare war against Sturgs. I mentioned the map speed, simply because they are bad at assembling new units, because the villages are so stretched out. Really makes it hard for lords to respond or recover. Well, at least I think that. That's why I wrote "let's see how it works out."

 

[Apocal]

I mean, I always see Tyal taken first, then Varnovapol and in my own 2 playthroughs with Sturgia, Khuzait was always the first to declare war against Sturgs.

At game start, the Khuzaits are at war with the Northern Empire and no one else. I know 1.4.1 has some goofy **** going on though, so maybe that changed.

I mentioned the map speed, simply because they are bad at assembling new units, because the villages are so stretched out. Really makes it hard for lords to respond or recover. Well, at least I think that. That's why I wrote "let's see how it works out."

AI parties should probably default to all-cav on respawn for this reason. Beccause even giving Sturgia the Khuzait bonus x2 wouldn't be enough to get them from Revyl to Tyal in less than four days with their typical army composition.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Would definitely favour further nerfs to the Khuzaits - it's far too common to see them snowball ahead of everyone else. In 7 playthroughs, I've never see them die out as a faction. I've seen them snowball HARD every single time unless I was personally working on their containment. My favourite playthroughs (Vlandia) actually often stall because, even though we're doing very well, I'm too far away to stem the Khuzait tide, and I just know sooner or later I'll be facing a boring, mostly dichromatic map. At least as Southern Empire or Aserai, I can painstakingly bleed the Khuzait dry on every war and keep them in check.

Would strongly advise the devs to keep making changes to the Khuzait: significant reductions to the prosperity of the steppe settlements, maybe a nerf of the culture bonus to 5% map movement speed instead of 10%, further armour nerfs (now that those matter in 1.4.1 auto-calcs).

If they need to nerf them I I "strongly advise" they keep it solely in the auto-calc formulas. Changing their armor or AI in live battle will just makes them useless for the player. I mean currently armor doesn't mean much in live battle,but they nefred horse archers in the original mount and blade and it made them utterly useless. Likewise if they need to nerf their heritage trait, nerf it for AI and let the player keep it.

I don't know if the AI actually uses thing like prosperity enough for it to help, since they get magical troop spawns, recruits from empty villages and trainer exp...... hmmm maybe don't do that for the Khuzait or have it toggle on and off depending on how bad a faction is doing. Like below a threshold the game gives them a handicap but not when they're holding their own.

Anyways, so far taking Chaikland and lopping a few heads as an independent clan off has evened them out. Northern empire might even move into their territory. I hope someday different lords leading ad faction or clan have a different effect, would add some strategy to executions. In my imagination I'm thinking snuffing Mochung and my mother in law Musui will help because "they're aggressive and unreasonable" but I know the AI probably does the exact routine no matter who's in charge.

 

[FreezeZ]

They need to somehow nerf them. In my playthroughs, Khuzaits always snowball and Tyal is one of their first targets. But Sturgia has so many problems that its not odd. They losse battles where they heavily outnumber Khuzaits and in general suffer vey heavy losses in battles.
Right now khuzaits HA have:
1) High mobility
2) High survivability
3) Very high killing power
Two of these 3 shouldnt be a thing. They should at least loose all heavy barding from HA units and get some small nerf to dmg or accuracy. So they stop being tanks and become tool of harrasment, forcing movement and restricting it. They should be used to make openings for melee cav but now they mow down everything they see, even heavy, shielded infantry.

 

[xdj1nn]

They need to somehow nerf them. In my playthroughs, Khuzaits always snowball and Tyal is one of their first targets. But Sturgia has so many problems that its not odd. They losse battles where they heavily outnumber Khuzaits and in general suffer vey heavy losses in battles.
Right now khuzaits HA have:
1) High mobility
2) High survivability
3) Very high killing power
Two of these 3 shouldnt be a thing. They should at least loose all heavy barding from HA units and get some small nerf to dmg or accuracy. So they stop being tanks and become tool of harrasment, forcing movement and restricting it. They should be used to make openings for melee cav but now they mow down everything they see, even heavy, shielded infantry.

They need to balance by buffing all other cultures / kingdoms, if they stick onto the "nerf" path, the game will be boring.

 

[FreezeZ]

They need to balance by buffing all other cultures / kingdoms, if they stick onto the "nerf" path, the game will be boring.

Its easier to nerf one faction than buf others. I dont know if giving them weakness will make them boring. From my point of view they are anoying to fight against, feel unfair and from streams I have seen they are mindless to play. With every other faction you need to use some tactics but with Khuzaits you just press F6 and see enemy melt. Maybe I need to play them myself but right now I am doing Sturgia and after that is Vlandia.

 

[xdj1nn]

Its easier to nerf one faction than buf others. I dont know if giving them weakness will make them boring. From my point of view they are anoying to fight against, feel unfair and from streams I have seen they are mindless to play. With every other faction you need to use some tactics but with Khuzaits you just press F6 and see enemy melt. Maybe I need to play them myself but right now I am doing Sturgia and after that is Vlandia.

They need to buff all others because most factions are feeling too generic, leveling the game by higher standards is always better.. In fact, in life, everything works better when leveled by higher than by lower.

I was talking about Auto-Calc too, in battle it's irrelevant for the AI, they don't do battles, only the player does. The AI exclusively does Auto-Calc. Also, I already find Khuzait much easier to deal with than Khergit in WB. You just need to apply proper tactics against them. IN case YOU are the Khuzait, the AI should be applying proper tactics against you, but it's bound to be improved anyway... Khergits in M&B, WB and now in BL have always been the cheesiest, followed by knight-only Swadian army. If they give strengths to the remaining BL factions, it levels by quality instead of just turning things unviable through nerfs. The economy nerfs are already making the game much more annoying than it already was. To pickup into a good economy now is taking much longer, and there's too much probability of the player going broke due to them.

 

[FreezeZ]

They need to buff all others because most factions are feeling too generic, leveling the game by higher standards is always better.. In fact, in life, everything works better when leveled by higher than by lower.

I was talking about Auto-Calc too, in battle it's irrelevant for the AI, they don't do battles, only the player does. The AI exclusively does Auto-Calc. Also, I already find Khuzait much easier to deal with than Khergit in WB. You just need to apply proper tactics against them. IN case YOU are the Khuzait, the AI should be applying proper tactics against you, but it's bound to be improved anyway... Khergits in M&B, WB and now in BL have always been the cheesiest, followed by knight-only Swadian army. If they give strengths to the remaining BL factions, it levels by quality instead of just turning things unviable through nerfs. The economy nerfs are already making the game much more annoying than it already was. To pickup into a good economy now is taking much longer, and there's too much probability of the player going broke due to them.

Question is how you buff other factions and if they realy need buff aside from Sturgia?

Autocalc is just too simple right now. It gives straight buff too cav units and nothing else. Making autocalc better will help, I wont oppose that.

As for economy I think they nerfed influence gain way to much. Cash is not a problem after first workshop.

 

[Reiksmarshal]

Well they are dead in my 1.4 game without my involment.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Its easier to nerf one faction than buf others. I dont know if giving them weakness will make them boring. From my point of view they are anoying to fight against, feel unfair and from streams I have seen they are mindless to play. With every other faction you need to use some tactics but with Khuzaits you just press F6 and see enemy melt. Maybe I need to play them myself but right now I am doing Sturgia and after that is Vlandia.

This sin't just for you I saw several people say similar things.
The problem is most units in the game flat out suck ATM, they don't do their ****ing job. Cav doesn't land it's charges, it wiffs and gets taken down. Infantry would rather die then hold it's shield up for more then 2 seconds. It's absolutely wrong to weaken working units because others are broken still.
If it's just auto calc, for AI balance only, then that's fine but you've specified said (and others too)they are hard and annoying to fight.

If you think they're hard do this:
Move ranged units to back of map, on hill is good but anywhere is fine.
Press 0 f2 aim them diagonally to your left and press f1 so they focus on the direction HA will come from and wont try too hard to track them.
Move other unit to the left side of range units, near where HA sometimes end up.
As HA approach ride up personally and get behind them and start killing them with arrows and glaive. They keep a steady course so it's very easy to do.
Your ranged units will shoot them down easily if you focus direction as I described, I don't know why but it's much better then default.
Often the HA will even stop in the line of fire as if the AI is considering something and they take heavy losses on the spot and try to regroup.
If you're facing an extremely large force do this and then just retreat when the main force closes in. Eventually there will be no more HA and you can take on the main force.

If a player doesn't use many ranged troops or doesn't want to retreat then they are choosing to build a bad warband and play badly, so why should their opinion be given much weight?

 

[Sheepify]

Aren't those sources from the knights' perspective? And is there any turkish sources that can confirm that? Because these claims were probabaly greatly exaggerated or completely made up. It is a known fact that historical people liked to exaggerate certain things to make their side look good. If turkish archers really did not do harm to the knights, how could they have won the war? Some logical fallacy right there. The templers failed miserably to repel turkish armies in christian territories and lost all their possessions in israel. A simple google of crusades can tell you that.

A bit late, but while digging around for other things I found a highly reputable source that backs the claim that Crusader armor was highly impervious to their enemy's arrow fire. Comes from Saladin's own biographer, Bahā' ad-Dīn Yusuf ibn Rafi ibn Shaddād, and is a firsthand account of an engagement during the 3rd Crusade (obviously translated, but I see no reason to doubt the veracity of the translation):

[The crusader footmen] drawn up in front of the cavalry, stood firm as a wall, and every foot-soldier wore a vest of thick felt and a coat of mail so dense and strong that our arrows made no impression on them... I saw some with from one to ten arrows sticking in them, and still advancing at their ordinary pace without leaving the ranks.

This is from "The Life of Saladin," chapter 127, "What Befell Sultan Yusuf"

I also ran into several confirmations coming from the Crusader's side of things, but not the original account I was looking for. Yet

 

[Aggrobiscuit]

The problem seems to be how defeat is handled. For the player, he loses all troops, which gives a massive herd penalty to movement speed. AI can teleport out of being captured, ransomed and released, and get to keep 10% of their troops after capture, meaning if they suffer the herd penalty at all, it's in friendly territory. The player after capture, is a single person with 100+ mules, 100+ riding horses, can barely move, and has to delete some of those mules and horses so he can. So the AI gets to keep his horses, which allows him to quickly build a cavalry heavy army.

This is all going on the assumption that AI actually even needs mules for inventory management, and horses/warhorses for troop upgrades, and doesn't just create them from nothing. which would be a whole other problem. But I have noticed that other factions despite having mounted troops, don't seem to care to use them at all despite how useful they would be.

Fixing Khuzait dominance would help fix the Northern Empire problem too. I've tried to join them twice, and the first time, they were wiped out before my clan was strong enough for me to become vassal. Second time I joined as a merc after about 30 minutes play, and they had one city and a castle left by that point. They get wiped out first on every save file I have, despite their great military leader.

 

[pygc1]

A bit late, but while digging around for other things I found a highly reputable source that backs the claim that Crusader armor was highly impervious to their enemy's arrow fire. Comes from Saladin's own biographer, Bahā' ad-Dīn Yusuf ibn Rafi ibn Shaddād, and is a firsthand account of an engagement during the 3rd Crusade (obviously translated, but I see no reason to doubt the veracity of the translation):

This is from "The Life of Saladin," chapter 127, "What Befell Sultan Yusuf"

I also ran into several confirmations coming from the Crusader's side of things, but not the original account I was looking for. Yet

Maybe it was true, I don't know. But one thing that confuses me is that the muslim forces wore mail armor as well......they learnt how to manufacture mail from Europe centuries ago.......could it be that the Crusaders armor were made from better steel? Like Valyrian steel from GOT or something?

 

[Apocal]

Maybe it was true, I don't know. But one thing that confuses me is that the muslim forces wore mail armor as well......they learnt how to manufacture mail from Europe centuries ago.......could it be that the Crusaders armor were made from better steel? Like Valyrian steel from GOT or something?

That's possible although my faded recollection is that Islamic mail armor of the 12th century was mostly demi-riveted while European mail at the upper-end was fully riveted or transitioning to that point. They also expressed a preference for textile armor over mail, not the worst decision in a hot-ass desert but if you're squaring off against guys willing to wear both mail and textile armor, then it going to make your arrows perform markedly worse than you're probably accustomed to.

That being said, I recall an account where the crusaders were too hurt and exhausted after a previous battle and so suited up for the next attack wearing only their gambesons and not mail, figuring the former was enough protection against arrows.