Oh, maybe you prefer RTS... Ultimate General series won't let you down.Doesn't that kind of prove the rule
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Can anyone involved with development tell me when I can expect siege AI to be competent?
- 主题发起人 Lord_Grem
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While it is obvious it needs improvement; A.I. is not exactly an easy fix. Let's consider sieges in the total war series. A 20 year old series with 14 instalments and a much larger developer;
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Like when everyone always says "God the A.I. is terrible in this game..." I want them to say - compared to what?
Name a game that does have good A.I.?
Fact is - until we get machine learning in video games A.I is always going to be janky. TW can improve it for Bannerlord but I don't know where everyone gets their high expectations from...
Having played all these games except for Cyberpunk, the difference between them and Bannerlord is that while they might bug 1-5% of the time, Bannerlord AI bugs out 100% of the time. No one is asking for human-like AI, they just need to be able to climb ladders and defend themselves. Btw the Mordhau developers', who are much smaller than Taleworlds, eventually did update their AI to be able to climb ladders and surfaces, they must be using machine-learning since that is truly a marveling feat.
Fear had a very cool AI but much of it was done with smoke and mirrors and really in a sense is pre-scripted to look emergent. You also have to consider the scale - a few bots in a few rooms needing only to react to Player is far easier than hundreds of bots concerned about hundreds of potential threats as well as strategic locations they need to defend.
Mordhau is again small scale bots that need basically have one goal and thats to kill the other nearest bot. Id love if mordhau tried to create a strategic battle with hundreds of bots and other goals besides terminator kill, kill KILL! But that aint gonna happen.
Ultimate General is a 2-d strategy game and these game are utterly devoted to AI if you think about it *(the models art are nothing special) that dont have to worry about 3d pathfinding and scaling ladders navigating rooms etc...
Mordhau is again small scale bots that need basically have one goal and thats to kill the other nearest bot. Id love if mordhau tried to create a strategic battle with hundreds of bots and other goals besides terminator kill, kill KILL! But that aint gonna happen.
Ultimate General is a 2-d strategy game and these game are utterly devoted to AI if you think about it *(the models art are nothing special) that dont have to worry about 3d pathfinding and scaling ladders navigating rooms etc...
Well, there is nothing left to do then but get into bed and cry under the blanket...
And even then, it uses a lot of cheats to get around AI limitations. They had to disable artillery friendly-fire because the AI couldn't handle it.
Siege AI, as they said, will take a bit of time to fix... it's not an easy fix they said some months ago. But don't be surprised they didn't fix it yet, I am still waiting for engineering perks and leveling balancing. Maybe engineering perks and siege AI are meant to be implemented/fixed together? Other than that, by march I expect those things to be fixed, or taleworlds be slacking! Also I do hope they don't move out of early access too soon........
Well, there is nothing left to do then but get into bed and cry under the blanket...
AI is tough man - but ill tell ya its fans with unrealistic expectations and multiplayer that have stunted its growth all these years. Theres a great youtube which i cant currently find which really explains how and why AI hasnt really evolved, and really devolved since the days of FEAR, Half Life 1 *those marines were amazing* etc... AI design is really costly and even when games dedicate a huge part of their resources to it. their devs would wake up and find 30 threads on their forums about "How bad their AI sux!!". so at some point AI devs kinda went well if they are going to say it sucks anyways -minds well just give them a scripted affair as opposed to "real AI" which works off a finite state machine (flowgraph of options depending on circumstances presented to AI). Scripted AI is far easier -for instance while playing Battlefield 3 (the 1st game they switched over from finite state to scripted) i was following my squad around a corner where there were enemies firing at us some 30 meters away - being in the back of my 4 man group i decided NOT to engage to see what would happen to my AI squaddies -nothing happened. Meaning, they kept leaning around the corner firing and the enemy appeared to be firing back -but the whole scene was a gimmick -meant to only really work when the Player himself was firing. I never loaded that game up again. Dreadful.
Multiplayer let Devs off the hook -why spend all this money and manpower on a system that might utterly fail (as many other components are interdependent on it such as level design and physics engine and animations system and.........) when we can just simply model some guns, some cool levels with lots of smoke and god rays and let people duke it out among each other!!! It was a godsend for devs - a huge burden off their back but was a soulcrusher to gamers who prefer AI or at least some AI in their games to better flesh out their worlds.
Now onto Taleworlds -i always, always give strong props to the engineering feat of the initial engine the developed -the one in which hundreds of AI could fight melee, horse and bow and everything was being calculated in real time -thats amazing!!! That said -we already know they can do this and obviously we dont want to keep buying the same dammed game just to congratulate them -we also want to see the evolution of that engine. We are paying next level so GIVE US next level AI!! Siege im sure is tough but im not sensing enough umbrage from the Devs like "Oh hellz no this aint our finished product.." - which is worrisome. Need more umbrage.
Nah...I don't think it has any relation with the multiplayer alternatives.
I don't know...maybe I have the mood downstairs these days...but the Ai in M&B has evolved rather little. In previous installments the bots also detected enemies, strike, ride horses, go to high areas etc... a new engine combined with more modern hardware allows a higher computing capacity (I don't take away the props to Murat Türe, the optimization work is fabulous). But the only new behaviour that stands out is the circling attack of horse archers...
I was really excited when I read the Dev Blog 25/10/18, wow three levels of AI. I may be asking for tomatoes from the grapevine, but in my eyes the Bannerlord AI doesn't make the cut.
I don't know...maybe I have the mood downstairs these days...but the Ai in M&B has evolved rather little. In previous installments the bots also detected enemies, strike, ride horses, go to high areas etc... a new engine combined with more modern hardware allows a higher computing capacity (I don't take away the props to Murat Türe, the optimization work is fabulous). But the only new behaviour that stands out is the circling attack of horse archers...
I was really excited when I read the Dev Blog 25/10/18, wow three levels of AI. I may be asking for tomatoes from the grapevine, but in my eyes the Bannerlord AI doesn't make the cut.
Yeah and TW even mentioned they changed their AI to surround when they outnumber an enemy, but it almost never happens. I do see it occasionally but I think it must be tied to particular map areas and not actually an AI 'choice'. I notice it on some particular siege map gardens they will do it, but it's only in a certain area of a few map types. I mean it doesn't work on the player anyways but at least they tryOne more proof showing the embarrassments of the current state of AI.
Flanking? what is that? Bots look like Justin Bieber fans chasing an autograph through the shopping centre corridors...
Philozoraptor
Sergeant
Actually we managed to fix ladder climbing and defenders properly defending when attackers break the gate or enter via breached walls in Realistic Battle Mod, the siege towers are much thougher nut to crack (I think we improved their functionality too, just not enought to be better than rugular ladders). However the scripted locations such as places where defenders are supposed to prepare on walls, etc are totally map dependent and as of now modding tools do not allow modification of original Bannerlord maps (you can make your own maps though). So siege pathfinding is something that modders could probably fix but they are not allowed to.
Was it too hard to fix like some fundamental flaw/ bad code or "just" some typos and messing around with numbers to find a sweet spot the AI reacts better as they should?
Realistic battles never leaves my load-order since it came out and i'm loving the fix in the last update, just had a nice surprise in a siege with my men rushing forward to ax down the gate as they should while the others were actually going up the ladders!
The AI is pretty competent in sieges.
The navmesh is not.
The navmesh is not.
I was thinking than breaking the wall, will solve the problem, since the units will just rush into charge, but I was wrong, after destroying both walls, units behave the same as with ladders, they just stay outside (getting shoot), and slowly one by one go into the breach,
I needed to rush myself with the horse inside the breach (LoTR style) and press the follow command for units to go through the breach, and still, they behave quite random.
I needed to rush myself with the horse inside the breach (LoTR style) and press the follow command for units to go through the breach, and still, they behave quite random.
Philozoraptor
Sergeant
Was it too hard to fix like some fundamental flaw/ bad code or "just" some typos and messing around with numbers to find a sweet spot the AI reacts better as they should?
Realistic battles never leaves my load-order since it came out and i'm loving the fix in the last update, just had a nice surprise in a siege with my men rushing forward to ax down the gate as they should while the others were actually going up the ladders!
Well it took Marnah (He is responsible for most of the code, I do mostly the xml stuff, historical research and formula development for some of the simulations we are doing.) several hours to get the ladders working correctly and then like 20 more hours to get the other stuff done and to improve the ladders further I think. Big part of the fix was changing how the troops stand and move, by default they have trouble reaching the ladders in time before they are reasigned to other part of formation because they cannot push through their own formation, to my understanding. Then it was lot of tweaking ofcourse. As for counterattack Marnah gave them order to charge enemies when they get too close and order to go back when there are no more enemies inside the castle so they just dont rush out and get slaughtered in the open. In vanilla troops are just standing in shield wall formation, standing in general is very bad in the game bcause movement is very important to melee performance of troops (and player) so charge is always better than move to position. Also we are completelly reworking how the troops move (no more vibrating) so they behave more like humans and less like robots (they will wait or try to move to the side if they cannot go in straight direction) which improves their behaviour further in tight corridors.
five bucks
Knight at Arms
This isn't a case of isolated incidents like those cherrypicked videos though. Bannerlord's siege AI sucks a lot of the time.
Also, regarding your Mordhau video: That video is out of date and AI have been updated to be able to climb ladders; and Mordhau is a PVP game overall, bots are not its focus and Horde mode is just a minor gimmick mode in that game. Whereas Bannerlord is first and foremost a singleplayer PVE game.
Oh! I thought vibrating/flickering was a problem caused by collision capsules and inverse kinematics...
So, you think it's possible to fix the flickering? I mean this (video test belonging to this thread)
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I take this opportunity to thank you for creating the mod and sharing it with the Community
Philozoraptor
Sergeant
You are right that original problerm is caused by collision capsules and inverse kinematics. However we "simply" told the troops to stand instead of pushing like morons when there is no place in front of them - so they behave more like IRL or total war. Obviously there is gonna be little bit vibrating in the gatehouse simply because the troops are touching the walls and walls are pushing them back (also with more fps you gonna get more vibration so it has something to do with how often position of object (agent) with hitboxes in relation to other objects with hitboxes is calculated (why AI is allowed to push into object with hitboxes - is something that I dont understand, afterall you cannot as a player push into wall so much that it will push you back, but AI can do it).
You can try our mod and test it your self, its savegame compatible.
You can try our mod and test it your self, its savegame compatible.
