SP - World Map Campaign map speed, horses vs men.

[rippex]

Headsup, this is some ideas that sort of started to pour out once I tried to figure out how to reduce khuzait advantages, it kinda escalated into brainstorming with myself

Humans when well trained are incredible distance runners, this could be reflected in the game in comparison to mounted troops, horses do get tired faster than athletes.
This is mainly intended to have a "soft" nerf to khuzaits in particular and a slight buff to light infantry.

Having campaign speed for infantry be a calculation of f.ex equipment weight divided by athleticism would help differentiate between a heavily geared imperial army and a force of battanian skirmishers. You could then make out a army "average" to determine speed, or cap it by the slowest unit/horse/mule whichever seems more reasonable.

The reason nomadic/cavalry focused armies could cover ground so fast was in no small part due to them having extra horses to switch between to keep them "fresh".
Forcing armies comprised of cavalry to have a supply of spare horses to make them much faster than foot troops would serve to make them more expensive and annoying to maintain, which is reasonable imo. Mounted troop campaign speed could also be determined by horse speed divided by riding skill, or something similar. It might also be a good idea to stop them from outrunning their supplytrain.

Current speedboost that mounted infantry get could be slightly reduced to compensate. Reasoning would be that riding is a skill in itself, someone who is not used to horses will get injuries and overexertion in certain muscles that they aren't used to excercising to such a degree.

Not sure if these are doable or even wanted as "realism" or attempts at it can hamper gameplay if not applied carefully. But wth, might as well put it out here. Sorry if I gave you grey hairs/migraine =).

@TaleWorlds Thank you for keeping it up even during the pandemic <3

 

[Apocal]

They already nerfed the Khuzait culture perk by recoding it only do what it says on the tin: 10% to the cavalry bonus. Instead of party speed in general getting a flat 10% boost. The cavalry bonus baseline only ever reaches 3.00, at most. So a Khuzait-led party will only ever have -- at absolute most -- 0.3 extra speed over an equivalent party. But the cavalry bonus also weakens with party size increases and any non-mounted troops, even if given a horse to ride from your inventory. So in practice it is virtually always much, much less than that. The only real (and consistent) exceptions are the player party, because the AI will ignore the benefits of map speed in favor of adding 30 recruits without horses, and upgraded Khuzait-led caravans, which are forced to keep a small size (good for map speed) and relatively few non-mounted units.

You could then make out a army "average" to determine speed, or cap it by the slowest unit/horse/mule whichever seems more reasonable.

If you do that, the AI speed will always be the slowest low-tier unit in their troop tree.

As an aside, I can't emphasize enough that the AI does not optimize its party composition at all. It takes whatever it can get, whenever it can get it, without any sense of what goal it is try to accomplish -- except keep itself as close to its party cap as it can.

Forcing armies comprised of cavalry to have a supply of spare horses to make them much faster than foot troops would serve to make them more expensive and annoying to maintain, which is reasonable imo.

It wouldn't make them much more expensive or annoying to maintain, spare horses are not a recurring cost.

An early/mid-game low-tier riding horse costs about ~150 denars. At 2 per horsemen, you're still looking at ~500, including the cost of recruiting or upgrading a mounted unit. That's not a meaningful cost except in the early game, when your target selection is limited and you haven't had time to build a decent warchest. A decent party of 30-60 of the right troops can beat up small lord parties for roughly 5,000 denars per takedown in loot, with the potential to double that (or more!) in plundered denars. The remounts (spare horses) won't take losses either; effectively, they are a permanent party speed buff that's only lost on escaping from a bad fight or full party wipe. Adjusting for inflation over the first few years (gut feeling: horse prices rise to ~250 as you hit clan tier 4) and 2 extra per rider, we're still talking under 100,000 denars, one-time, for an endgame party that can take on any other party fielded by an AI lord, and some of their smaller armies too.

That's assuming you loot zero horses, which is something that isn't really realistic.

This is mainly intended to have a "soft" nerf to khuzaits in particular and a slight buff to light infantry.

The problem with light infantry has nothing to do with map speed and everything to do with archers killing them.

 

[JuanNieve]

Perhaps mountainous terrain can analyze more the speed of cavalry units, then heavy infantry and the one that would be least affected would be light infantry.

The problem with light infantry has nothing to do with map speed and everything to do with archers killing them.

Perhaps light infantry can benefit from passive blocking

 

[Apocal]

Perhaps mountainous terrain can analyze more the speed of cavalry units, then heavy infantry and the one that would be least affected would be light infantry.

Perhaps light infantry can benefit from passive blocking

There are not that many mountains in BL that are traversable and almost none of them lead anywhere. It's pretty much a brief range to the west of Tyal that leads over the north of Tyal (but not into Tyal), a few east of Akkalat and Odokh, east of Vostrum, and finally around where the Southern Empire borders the Northern Empire, there is a very narrow path over the mountain that's almost surely a bug/oversight in the pathing.

Shields already passively block projectiles in vanilla Bannerlord, the mod in the video just applies it to melee attacks as well.

 

[JuanNieve]

Shields already passively block projectiles in vanilla Bannerlord, the mod in the video just applies it to melee attacks as well.

Yes, but when you are preparing to throw the javelin it leaves you a lot of openness. As I understand it, what he did was model it from the banner so that the shield stays in place even when you attack. I think that could help in animating the light infantry with projectiles so that they can return fire and in turn be more covered.

Spoiler

Although also the units with shield like peltast should try to move to the sides trying to avoid the arrows and try to maintain the social distance between them XD

 

[rippex]

@Apocal
Cheers for the criticism, can be a bit hard to make sense of your own ideas at times =)

 

[Lusitani 5th Empire]

Nerf the army speed by adding a new parameter to the speed formula

• Army speed significantly reduced in wood and mountain areas when it's big and mainly composed of cavalry
  • This way smaller armies could easily escape if not caught in open ground.
  • Lords would be able to survive longer and regroup more often.
  • It’s a good way to nerf and balance the attacking factions, since they would be less able to kill all the defenders in one go.
  • It's like trenches to hold a "lightning attack", from World War II.

 

[Haiw]

Why are you proposing to nerf strategic speed of horses? This is exactly why they were always used so much. The idea that walking foot infantry must somehow be able to keep up with horses is just laughable. If anything the speed difference between foot and horse armies is already unrealistically small. Nerfing it further is just nonsensical.

Kuzait steamrolling has more to do with other stats... for example their position on the map (they can largely fight a onefront war) and the autoresolve calculations not taking into account their army's unsuitability for siege warfare (so horse archer armies still take castles and settlements easily unlike their real world counterparts).

If you wanted to put a more realistic nerf upon cavalry; increase their food consumption to take into account fodder for the horses. But given how much the AI already struggles with managing food I don't think that's really gonna make for a better game.

 

[AfLIcTeD]

Why are you proposing to nerf strategic speed of horses? This is exactly why they were always used so much. The idea that walking foot infantry must somehow be able to keep up with horses is just laughable. If anything the speed difference between foot and horse armies is already unrealistically small. Nerfing it further is just nonsensical.

Kuzait steamrolling has more to do with other stats... for example their position on the map (they can largely fight a onefront war) and the autoresolve calculations not taking into account their army's unsuitability for siege warfare (so horse archer armies still take castles and settlements easily unlike their real world counterparts).

If you wanted to put a more realistic nerf upon cavalry; increase their food consumption to take into account fodder for the horses. But given how much the AI already struggles with managing food I don't think that's really gonna make for a better game.

Horses won't always be faster though. It depends on the terrain. Cavalry would be slower in forest, mountains and snow. So the cavalry and footmen on horses bonus' would be penalised in these terrains.

 

[TheWitchIzalith]

Horses won't always be faster though. It depends on the terrain. Cavalry would be slower in forest, mountains and snow. So the cavalry and footmen on horses bonus' would be penalised in these terrains.

I'm not sure you've ever worked a horse in snow, but they can, and do move much faster than humans. It's ice they struggle with.

I'm not sure where the OP gets the idea that people can outrun horses, even if it's just on endurance.

Even if one were to walk the entire day (because theres no way you run all day in heavy gear) people who intentionally do long distance walking get about 30 miles in 10 hours. Thats on relatively flat terrain.

A Horse can do that in 6 hours, rest for 4, and then be moving again. A horse averages 26-32 Miles in 8 hours day just walking. That doesn't include canter, or trotting.

Humans can run longer than horses sure, but thats with no gear, and not nearly as fast. The fastest human alive runs 27 MPH. For 100 meters, a horse can easily go 44 MPH. You might run longer, but that horse is long gone before you get tired anyway.

It's literally the Rabbit vs the Tortoise, but presumably the Rabbit isn't just going to wait around forever to let you catch up / Outrun you.

 

[Apocal]

Why are you proposing to nerf strategic speed of horses?

I'm not sure where the OP gets the idea that people can outrun horses, even if it's just on endurance.

It is just a suggestion to provide some give-and-take to using cavalry. Right now, there are incredibly few advantages to using infantry -- they kill less, die more, move slower, are just as time-consuming to train, equally expensive to maintain and count just the same for party size limits. Archers are in a somewhat better place but if it weren't for other parts of balance being out of whack, people would (rightfully) be complaining that there is no reason to ever use foot troops.

 

[TheWitchIzalith]

It is just a suggestion to provide some give-and-take to using cavalry. Right now, there are incredibly few advantages to using infantry -- they kill less, die more, move slower, are just as time-consuming to train, equally expensive to maintain and count just the same for party size limits. Archers are in a somewhat better place but if it weren't for other parts of balance being out of whack, people would (rightfully) be complaining that there is no reason to ever use foot troops.

I was just addressing the real life equivalent.

I feel that the Horses suffer speed penalties in forests / Mountains would be a suitable nerf to Horse speed. As suggested by someone above. Perhaps make the over world have a bit more Dense forest etc in certain regions, so that the Horse parties are severely impaired in these regions. Adding marshes, and other terrain affects too.

 

[Lusitani 5th Empire]

I'm not sure where the OP gets the idea that people can outrun horses, even if it's just on endurance.

Agreed. I think armies with horses should be faster if they are in open terrain and traveling with light weight. But at the same time having higher speed penalizations in forests and mountains for big and fast armies, so that smaller armies have a chance to escape.

I feel that the Horses suffer speed penalties in forests / Mountains would be a suitable nerf to Horse speed. As suggested by someone above. Perhaps make the over world have a bit more Dense forest etc in certain regions, so that the Horse parties are severely impaired in these regions. Adding marshes, and other terrain affects too.

Yes, precisely!

 

[Apocal]

I was just addressing the real life equivalent.

Oh, for sure. I just don't think looking to real life is going to help much here because looking to real, historical employment of horses is a niche-within-a-niche. I don't want to get started too deep into it because it is boring and I sound crazy throwing around terms like "sheep equivalents" but basically any idea to nerf cavalry is going to be game-y.

My criticism of the OP's idea was that it wouldn't do what he intended, not that it was unrealistic.

 

[TheWitchIzalith]

Oh, for sure. I just don't think looking to real life is going to help much here because looking to real, historical employment of horses is a niche-within-a-niche. I don't want to get started too deep into it because it is boring and I sound crazy throwing around terms like "sheep equivalents" but basically any idea to nerf cavalry is going to be game-y.

My criticism of the OP's idea was that it wouldn't do what he intended, not that it was unrealistic.

Yeah I get Real life =/= Gameplay, but there should be at least a semblence of a logical reason to nerf them, such as make some more difficult terrain, except in Khuzait lands etc.

When people just arbitrarily toss around nerfs for the sake of nerfs, it can dilute gameplay. And I say this as a Sturgian player who uses only infantry (Including me) in most runs. Even my empire run Im not using horses (Cause I cant find any damn noble recruits!).

I think a modification of the over world to add in swamps, and denser forests would do. Maybe even make some forests that are impassible to mounted units? So that infantry can escape through it (Albeit slowly) but the only way to be caught would be for the horse unit to go around. Since the AI tries to take the fastest path to the target, they would logically have to reroute once a certain threshold was hit.

This would also buff the smaller mercenary clans, as I dont think many of them have mounted units.

Could also be expanded upon to the Culture traits, in that some snow passes are impossible to traverse except as sturgians, and woods as battania etc.

 

[Apocal]

I think a modification of the over world to add in swamps, and denser forests would do. Maybe even make some forests that are impassible to mounted units? So that infantry can escape through it (Albeit slowly) but the only way to be caught would be for the horse unit to go around. Since the AI tries to take the fastest path to the target, they would logically have to reroute once a certain threshold was hit.

The problem is how you handle mixed parties.

The AI usually has at least a few mounted units. If nothing else, most lords ride. So what happens? A proportional debuff to movespeed? Or do the units actually get stripped off when you enter impassible terrain? And the AI needs to understand the tradeoffs to avoid cheesing it -- although this is a decidedly tertiary concern -- and the information needs to be presented the player in a way that they intuitively understand certain kinds of terrain will have an effect on their mounted units.

A secondary issue would be redesigning the map so there are actual reasons to ever be near those areas, while not having a hundred caravan pileup somewhere.

This would also buff the smaller mercenary clans, as I dont think many of them have mounted units.

Elefteroi (or however it is spelled), Beni Zilal, Ghulam and Karakhergits all use predominately mounted units. Jawwal have camels for their higher tier units as well.

 

[TheWitchIzalith]

The problem is how you handle mixed parties.

The AI usually has at least a few mounted units. If nothing else, most lords ride. So what happens? A proportional debuff to movespeed? Or do the units actually get stripped off when you enter impassible terrain? And the AI needs to understand the tradeoffs to avoid cheesing it -- although this is a decidedly tertiary concern -- and the information needs to be presented the player in a way that they intuitively understand certain kinds of terrain will have an effect on their mounted units.

A secondary issue would be redesigning the map so there are actual reasons to ever be near those areas, while not having a hundred caravan pileup somewhere.



Elefteroi (or however it is spelled), Beni Zilal, Ghulam and Karakhergits all use predominately mounted units. Jawwal have camels for their higher tier units as well.

Yeah I wouldn't begin to know how to balance the technical implementations, or that they'd even work. Just throwing ideas about. It's definitely a much more daunting task than a simple buff or nerf though. As you said it could possibly get Game-y. Which I feel is a poor way to address a system that needs fixing, but could be the only solution. Perhaps similar to how extra horses gives a speed boost currently, based on percentage, the same could be applied that the more you have incurs a negative penalty in certain terrain types and it simply be left at that.

I shall wait in the mean time to see how TW addresses it, as I'm sure they are vastly more capable then I am when it comes to the matter.