Campaign balancing - Passive XP for AI

[Lord Irontoe]

This is related to extreme perk bonuses. There are 4 perks giving xp.

1-Combat Tips : +15 xp per troop / day
2-Raise The Meek : +30 xp per troop / day for troops < tier 4
3-Walk It Off : +15 xp per troop / / day while traveling on map
4-A Good Day's Rest : +30 xp per troop / day while waiting at settlement

These xp bonuses are given per troop. It was per stack previously and changed to per troop. Of course per troop makes more sense but values did not reduced while changing to per troop. We are fixing it (reducing daily per troop effects to 3-5 instead of 15-30)

The amount of XP for Raise the Meek seems perfect right now. It lets you get low tier troops up to speed at a pretty nice rate that doesn't feel too fast, but its not too slow either. Nerfing it to 3-5xp will just make the perk useless again. The only problem is that its supposed to only work for Tier 1-3, but now it seems to be giving xp to all tiers.

I've also noticed that the AI seems to get much more xp from battles. When fighting alongside my companion's parties, they always get around 3-4x more troop upgrades after each battle than I do.

 

[mexxico]

The amount of XP for Raise the Meek seems perfect right now. It lets you get low tier troops up to speed at a pretty nice rate that doesn't feel too fast, but its not too slow either. Nerfing it to 3-5xp will just make the perk useless again. The only problem is that its supposed to only work for Tier 1-3, but now it seems to be giving xp to all tiers.

I've also noticed that the AI seems to get much more xp from battles. When fighting alongside my companion's parties, they always get around 3-4x more troop upgrades after each battle than I do.

What I see is npc troops generally get passive xp from "Walk It Off " perk. Because their leadership skill is not set (as a bug i think, now reported) so they cannot get leadership perks. I checked raise the meek and it is working right currently and giving xp to only 1-3 tiers but I think amount is too high. Its only a perk it should not upgrade even 25% of your troops, maybe 5-10% can be upgraded by this perk and still 90-95% should be upgraded after battles. It's effect should reduced by 50% at least with others.

I also adviced giving passive xp to player not only by perks but also with leadership skill. Currently each npc troop getting daily 5+troop_level passive xp, I will reduce it to (3 + troop_level x 0.5) but we can give same xp to player also. Also we can multiply this effect with the level of leadership skill imo. Something like this can work :

Giving every troop daily passive xp as :
(3 + troop_level x 0.5) x (1 + leadership skill level / 200) x (playerparty ? 0.5 : 1)

means that if it is player party it will get 50% less passive xp compared to npc parties and passive xp will be proportional to leadership skill level of heroes. This is only adviced for now. Currently player party cannot get any passive xp if he/she has not got 1 of these 4 perks, but npc parties get passive xp even they have no perks. Npc parties should get more passive xp however we can also give it to player party proportional to level of leadership skill I think.

 

[Dabos37]

I cannot find these perks, where are they?:

3-Walk It Off : +15 xp per troop / / day while traveling on map
4-A Good Day's Rest : +30 xp per troop / day while waiting at settlement

@mexxico thanks for the info. So, the AI is not getting passive XP from other sources and just getting It from combat tips?

 

[remorse]

This is related to extreme perk bonuses. There are 4 perks giving xp.

1-Combat Tips : +15 xp per troop / day
2-Raise The Meek : +30 xp per troop / day for troops < tier 4
3-Walk It Off : +15 xp per troop / / day while traveling on map
4-A Good Day's Rest : +30 xp per troop / day while waiting at settlement

These xp bonuses are given per troop. It was per stack previously and changed to per troop. Of course per troop makes more sense but values did not reduced while changing to per troop. We are fixing it (reducing daily per troop effects to 3-5 instead of 15-30)

FYI Raise the Meek is not multiplying it by the number of troops in the stack, it's multiplying it by the stack index (probably a typo using a loop index i instead of a j or n or something)
It took me a while to realize WTF i was looking at, but this made it pretty clear:

UNIT    ----  Number in Stack   -  XP PER DAY
=================================================
-------------------------------------------------
Alena the Wronged     1             --
highwayman            1             60
sturgian warrior      3             90
sturgian recruit      9            120
hillman               2            150
sturgian woodsman     2            180
sturgian brigand      1            210
--------------------------------------------------
highwayman            1             30
sturgian warrior      3             60
sturgian recruit      9             90
hillman               2            120
sturgian woodsman     2            150
sturgian brigand      1            180
imperial recruit     80            210
--------------------------------------------------

Also it really does seem to be giving XP to all units. Highwaymen, Veteran Farises, Aserai Archers, etc.

 

[mexxico]

I cannot find these perks, where are they?:

3-Walk It Off : +15 xp per troop / / day while traveling on map
4-A Good Day's Rest : +30 xp per troop / day while waiting at settlement

@mexxico thanks for the info. So, the AI is not getting passive XP from other sources and just getting It from combat tips?

It seems they are new implemented then. If they are not at 1.4.2 this means they will be at 1.4.3, currently in my run npc lords get too much passive xp because these two perks. But I do not know if they exist in 1.4.2 or not.

In your runs AI get passive xp (5 + level xp per troop) directly also they get xp from battles and perks (generally athletics).

 

[mexxico]

FYI Raise the Meek is not multiplying it by the number of troops in the stack, it's multiplying it by the stack index (probably a typo using a loop index i instead of a j or n or something)
It took me a while to realize WTF i was looking at, but this made it pretty clear:

UNIT    ----  Number in Stack   -  XP PER DAY
=================================================
-------------------------------------------------
Alena the Wronged     1             --
highwayman            1             60
sturgian warrior      3             90
sturgian recruit      9            120
hillman               2            150
sturgian woodsman     2            180
sturgian brigand      1            210
--------------------------------------------------
highwayman            1             30
sturgian warrior      3             60
sturgian recruit      9             90
hillman               2            120
sturgian woodsman     2            150
sturgian brigand      1            180
imperial recruit     80            210
--------------------------------------------------

Also it really does seem to be giving XP to all units. Highwaymen, Veteran Farises, Aserai Archers, etc.

It seems these parts changed new so what you see is not same with what I see. I will deal with these problems and try to balance.

 

[Nakh]

Its only a perk it should not upgrade even 25% of your troops, maybe 5-10% can be upgraded by this perk and still 90-95% should be upgraded after battles. It's effect should reduced by 50% at least with others.

Why, why it so important to make us grind looters? All you achieve this way is what players try to avoid any battles which have probability of high casualties, even winnable ones.

 

[Dabos37]

It seems they are new implemented then. If they are not at 1.4.2 this means they will be at 1.4.3, currently in my run npc lords get too much passive xp because these two perks. But I do not know if they exist in 1.4.2 or not.

In your runs AI get passive xp (5 + level xp per troop) directly also they get xp from battles and perks (generally athletics).

Oh nice, then the passive XP for AI is getting removed in 1.4.3 if I am understanding correctly, and we will get new passive XP gain perks for everyone. Thanks!

 

[mexxico]

Oh nice, then the passive XP for AI is getting removed in 1.4.3 if I am understanding correctly, and we will get new passive XP gain perks for everyone. Thanks!

Removing passive xp for npc lords is so risky because you can find yourself fighting aganist 50% recruits again but we will reduce its effect because we have 4 perks now still total of these 4 perks will be about 2x of lord's passive xp gain. Yes there will be 2 new perks giving passive xp, it seems they are not yet at 1.4.2. But previous 2 perk's effect will be 50% reduced. Actually I suggested to give this passive xp to also player party instead of npc lord parties only so you do not need to get these perks to have passive xp (with 50% reduced to main party) and increase its effect proportional to leadership skill level but it is not accepted.

 

[Dabos37]

Removing passive xp for npc lords is so risky because you can find yourself fighting aganist 50% recruits again but we will reduce its effect. Yes there will be 2 new perks giving passive xp. But previous 2 perk's effect will be 50% reduced.

Ok thanks. Would be possible to give AI Raise the Mek instead Combat tips? This would make the fighting against recruits less common, at the same time that fighting against full elite parties rarer. Thanks.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

FYI Raise the Meek is not multiplying it by the number of troops in the stack, it's multiplying it by the stack index (probably a typo using a loop index i instead of a j or n or something)
It took me a while to realize WTF i was looking at, but this made it pretty clear:

UNIT    ----  Number in Stack   -  XP PER DAY
=================================================
-------------------------------------------------
Alena the Wronged     1             --
highwayman            1             60
sturgian warrior      3             90
sturgian recruit      9            120
hillman               2            150
sturgian woodsman     2            180
sturgian brigand      1            210
--------------------------------------------------
highwayman            1             30
sturgian warrior      3             60
sturgian recruit      9             90
hillman               2            120
sturgian woodsman     2            150
sturgian brigand      1            180
imperial recruit     80            210
--------------------------------------------------

Also it really does seem to be giving XP to all units. Highwaymen, Veteran Farises, Aserai Archers, etc.

I hope they take this info very serious and don't go nerfing non-existent effects instead.

I also adviced giving passive xp to player not only by perks but also with leadership skill. Currently each npc troop getting daily 5+troop_level passive xp, I will reduce it to (3 + troop_level x 0.5) but we can give same xp to player also. Also we can multiply this effect with the level of leadership skill imo. Something like this

I think you should have lower tier 1-2 troops get full 5+level and then stagger it down s 3+level X.5 you could even leave passive exp it off of tier 4+, I'd be fine with that, for the player I mean. My main goal with exp perks is to eventually not have to chase any looters with recruits ever again.
I would like to see a late game character with very high leadership and all relevant perks having a troop upgrading advantage equal to having a 10 in trainer skill in warband.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Removing passive xp for npc lords is so risky because you can find yourself fighting aganist 50% recruits again but we will reduce its effect because we have 4 perks now still total of these 4 perks will be about 2x of lord's passive xp gain. Yes there will be 2 new perks giving passive xp, it seems they are not yet at 1.4.2. But previous 2 perk's effect will be 50% reduced. Actually I suggested to give this passive xp to also player party instead of npc lord parties only so you do not need to get these perks to have passive xp (with 50% reduced to main party) and increase its effect proportional to leadership skill level but it is not accepted.

I've come around to being okay with the AI getting passive exp. I do think maybe some other remedy could be used to help them not show up on your doorstep so soon after a defeat though. I'd like to see the AI actually remembering their defeats by the player and choosing other targets and/or knowing they need even higher power before attempting the same siege. They come with 1k, lose, then come back very soon with 600.... they would be much better off attacking somebody else. If this learning or remembering is not possible, maybe they could be forced to choose different targets after a defeat or to be bared from choosing the same target for an amount of time.

Also, I notice if a Lord's party is reduced to 0 in the field but they are not defeated in battle, they just sit there on the map until their troops spawn. Harmless but funny.

 

[Bannerman Man]

FYI Raise the Meek is not multiplying it by the number of troops in the stack, it's multiplying it by the stack index (probably a typo using a loop index i instead of a j or n or something)

I can also confirm that this is the case for the Combat Tips perk as well.

Why, why it so important to make us grind looters?

Have you tried not grinding looters haha? I find that my troops level up at a good pace just through fighting lords. There are also a ton of perks that boost xp gain of troops from combat now, so it will probably go even faster if you unlock a few of them.

 

[Nakh]

Have you tried not grinding looters haha? I find that my troops level up at a good pace just through fighting lords. There are also a ton of perks that boost xp gain of troops from combat now, so it will probably go even faster if you unlock a few of them.

Here we go again. How do you plan to fight lords with no horses in inventory and stack of recruits after full party loss?

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Have you tried not grinding looters haha? I find that my troops level up at a good pace just through fighting lords. There are also a ton of perks that boost xp gain of troops from combat now, so it will probably go even faster if you unlock a few of them.

RECRUITS: We don't want them. After that yes, I'll use anyone with a horse or a ranged in Lord battle. Inf can **** off until fixed though. So can Cav actually, I'll take em when they're free but never make them, too docile and squishy still. Seriously I use 20 t2 ranged to kill of hidden hand parties in new games for easy money. I know how to make use of weak units, but we don't want to chase looters later in the game. I'm gonna look into those perks though, I hope you mean real codded into the game perks not show and tell perks.

 

[9yearsago]

How about making training grounds in castles give xp to your troops when you are stationed there but you have to pay for them, like paying for accommodation in Warband. This would differentiate castles and cities a bit more and having castles would make sense. AI lords could use that too and there would be no reason for them to cheat.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

And here I thought the new passive XP rates were just perfect. I can hire 30 recruits and passively level about 5 or 6 per day which feels about right. I should know by now that when it starts to feel good, a nerf's on its way.

 

[Nakh]

And here I thought the new passive XP rates were just perfect. I can hire 30 recruits and passively level about 5 or 6 per day which feels about right. I should know by now that when it starts to feel good, a nerf's on its way.

100% this. I feel bad now.

 

[Bannerman Man]

Here we go again. How do you plan to fight lords with no horses in inventory and stack of recruits after full party loss?

I wasn't trying to turn this into one of those threads, but seriously, I just timed myself doing all of that without any issues. I started a stopwatch and let myself get captured. In less than 18 minutes I was able to escape (through ransom), get back to home territory, recruit 100ish troops/mercs of various tiers, buy about 50 horses, get back to enemy territory, force recruit from a village, and then immediately fight a lord's party of 84 troops and win with roughly 80% of my troops left. By the end less than a third of my troops were still tier 1, and I did not fight a single bandit party.

I had the advantage of being Khuzait, but other than that it was a typical mid to late game campaign. I could have used better strategies such as using my companions as recruiters and pulling from my garrison, but I chose not to for the sake of the test. All settings max difficulty.

Honestly, I was just asking you if you felt looter grinding was really necessary. If you choose not to believe me that's fine, but I've done this sort of thing many times and besides tracking down more horses, getting back on your feet is relatively quick and painless.

Recruits are cheap and plentiful. If half of them die in the process of leveling up it's no great loss.

 

[crewsk8200]

How about making training grounds in castles give xp to your troops when you are stationed there but you have to pay for them, like paying for accommodation in Warband. This would differentiate castles and cities a bit more and having castles would make sense. AI lords could use that too and there would be no reason for them to cheat.

+1 great idea. We need a "boot camp".