Campaign balancing - Passive XP for AI

[Dabos37]

While I like the idea of giving the AI passive XP to avoid having to fight recruits constantly, now I am noticing that some lords armies are overtuned. I am at day +250 in my current campaign and some Khuzait parties are composed for 100% elite units.

Would be possible to nerf the passive XP gain for +T3 units to avoid this? Having to fight this kind of armies is not a good thing IMO and this makes worse snowballing because some factions armies (especially Khuzaits which rarely lose battles) become too elite and just starting wrecking everything.

 

[brognar]

yeah getting my hard earned soldiers steamrolled by elite cataphracts is getting old. Either tone it down or implement training perks for players so we can keep up

 

[Theofilos]

I would prefer AI lords to have t3-t5 armies but when they lose stay prisoners for a month or something,now defeating them seems pointless as they escape after 1 day and boom another stack.

 

[black_bulldog]

I would prefer AI lords to have t3-t5 armies but when they lose stay prisoners for a month or something,now defeating them seems pointless as they escape after 1 day and boom another stack.

sad but true...

 

[Rik Halderman]

I'm OK with the AI passive xp, however it should probably be tuned down a fair bit. We don't want armies of recruits everywhere, but we also don't want armies of elites. A majority of armies should really just be regulars unless they've actually earnt elite troops by a lot of successful fighting . You would expect faction leaders and the most influential lords to have more elite troops, so perhaps there could be a kingdom law introduced which would grant passive xp bonus to troops in the employ of top tier clans with high influence, plus by default the faction leader.

And yes, the dynamic will change when they fix the prisoner lord situation. I'm sure they'd be working on it but I hope that is implemented soon.There definitely needs to be a parole period for lords after ransoms are agreed to.

 

[remorse]

This probably wasn't fully intentional.
Raise the Meek now gives +180 per day per stack. On all stacks.
Meanwhile Combat Tips gives +45.
Maybe that's the ratio they want (1:4), but Raise the Meek should only work on t1-3.
This issue only shows up big in later campaigns since NPC lords start with low/zero leadership.

 

[Rik Halderman]

Yeah, I'd forgotten about those, probably because the weren't originally working. Just a matter of getting the balance right.

 

[Dabos37]

Yep, 100% elite armies are even worse than recruits armies IMO. Not sure if It is something wrong with traits because I have these traits and I am far to have a full T5-T7 army. I think It its something related to passive XP gain and some lords being able to do not get defeated in some time.

Passive XP gain should be stopped or reduced a lot for +T3 units IMO.

 

[geala]

Army composition should be ruled by costs and training time, costs should reflect the economical base. A cataphract, or cavalry in general, should cost immensely more than infantry, well armored top tier infantry should cost hugely more than lighter armored low and medium tier troops. The AI should be affected by this. But that's far from game reality. The costs for horses in the game for example are insanely low (I use a mod which makes horses 3 to 5 times more expensive, and still there are javelins which cost more than a warhorse), the tiers of wages are ridiculous. All cries for elite armies. I don't like this. I would even prefer recruit heavy armies instead (in my game all recruits have shields and work ok in battles).

The cost balance should change considerably. But I fear the AI would possibly not affected by this at all. I don't think it's a good way to balance it through xp gain, that's just another word for training time and/or grind, absolutely unhistorical (in this aspect our world and fantasy Calradia would not differ and by no means a Calradia army could have consisted only of elites, given the social and economical -feudal- systems allegedly in effect). My only solution would be fixed percentages of troop and tier types in an army, based on historical data. Will not happen, as it would remove a freedom that most of the players like.

 

[Rik Halderman]

Yep, 100% elite armies are even worse than recruits armies IMO. Not sure if It is something wrong with traits because I have these traits and I am far to have a full T5-T7 army. I think It its something related to passive XP gain and some lords being able to do not get defeated in some time.

Passive XP gain should be stopped or reduced a lot for +T3 units IMO.

Yeah, I'd be good with that.

 

[Nakh]

I imagine "fun" of fighting 1000+ Khan Guards and Heavy Lancers. Probably I will stay away from this game a little more.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I would not blame the passive exp since players have always reported that the Khuzait barely lose and get too strong.
I would rather have better passive exp skills that the player and companions can learn AND stick this on all the AI lords too, so we're all on the same page.
I suppose passive exp gain without a skill would be okay too, but I want it equal.

I'm all for the AI having a time out after it loses. Whether it's having to actually chase bandits to level troops or a artificial effect like they don't get their free troops back or spawn for so many days. I just don't want to see the same fools back every 2 days trying to mess with my stuff.
I think some recent changes to campaign are a step in right direction and I hope cheats for AI can be removed soon.

It would be really an improvement to M&B if the AI lords actually learned not to mess with you/your stuff after being defeated. They should know if they brought 1k guys and you beat them with 100 to not immediately try it again with worse troops....... they should go mess with someone else.
The AI should have threat meter it remembers based on you defeating them throughout the game. They should become afraid of you.
If you have good relations they should always prefer to attack another person's stuff too.
This stuff is really important to me for considering BL a meaningful improvement over warband.

 

[Sidrath]

Would be possible to nerf the passive XP gain for +T3 units to avoid this? Having to fight this kind of armies is not a good thing IMO and this makes worse snowballing because some factions armies (especially Khuzaits which rarely lose battles) become too elite and just starting wrecking everything.

I'm torn on this one. I actually like the notion that an undefeated army becomes a fearsome sight on the campaign map. I came across a serially victorious Derthert, and taking down a high tier Vlandian army felt like one of those epic moments that punctuate an exciting campaign. It's really interesting to me that you, and so many others, highlight Khuzait. I really think the high-tier army problem is specific to Khuzait:

• Their movement speed advantage: Both from high cavalry usage, and a broken cultural trait that gives +10% of 'Base' movement speed rather than +10% only to the cavalry component. Can anyone confirm that the AI does in fact receive the same culture bonus as the player? Even with stacked horses in your inventory, as the player you'll often struggle to catch up to retreating Khuzait armies. They'll always pick their fights rationally, and as such do not experience the normal frequency of army resets that other factions do. For the AI, that doesn't know to stack horses? They'll only ever get engaged by Khuzait when they're near-guaranteed to lose. Ergo, predictable map evolution and army strengths on the Eastern front (somewhat contained, in fresh 1.4.1 playthroughs on main branch, by what feels like a hidden coalition mechanic to contain anyone climbing much over 20000 faction strength - but that's another topic, unrelated to this thread).
  
  
• The horse archer problem: Archers are your main damage dealers in Bannerlord (2 quivers worth of safe damage, plus forcing the engagement on your terms - nothing compares). By virtue of mobility, cavalry survives way longer. Put heavily armoured archers on heavily armoured horses, and you get the most devastating unit in the game. Given their troop trees prioritise cavalry and archery, you'll suffer more casualties facing a high-tier Khuzait army than any other.

TL;DR : I'm not sure I mind the occasional high-tier army as much as I mind the specific conjunction of Khuzait too easily developing high-tier armies, and their high-tier armies being the best in the game.

 

[somethinglightthat]

I'm all for the AI having a time out after it loses. Whether it's having to actually chase bandits to level troops or a artificial effect like they don't get their free troops back or spawn for so many days. I just don't want to see the same fools back every 2 days trying to mess with my stuff.

This is entirely due to the AI always recruiting on what is basically easy difficulty. IIRC mexx said that they always have access to the first 2 slots. I had a 90 hour play that was much more balanced with recruiting on easy. I could get troops about as fast as they could and it was a much more enjoyable experience, especially late game. I played several plays on realistic and in the early game it was realistic, in the late game it was obnoxious. On easy you have access to 3 slots, but you don't know where recruits are, and the AI does. It works out about even.

 

[somethinglightthat]

I'm torn on this one. I actually like the notion that an undefeated army becomes a fearsome sight on the campaign map. I came across a serially victorious Derthert, and taking down a high tier Vlandian army felt like one of those epic moments that punctuate an exciting campaign. It's really interesting to me that you, and so many others, highlight Khuzait. I really think the high-tier army problem is specific to Khuzait:

• Their movement speed advantage: Both from high cavalry usage, and a broken cultural trait that gives +10% of 'Base' movement speed rather than +10% only to the cavalry component. Can anyone confirm that the AI does in fact receive the same culture bonus as the player? Even with stacked horses in your inventory, as the player you'll often struggle to catch up to retreating Khuzait armies. They'll always pick their fights rationally, and as such do not experience the normal frequency of army resets that other factions do. For the AI, that doesn't know to stack horses? They'll only ever get engaged by Khuzait when they're near-guaranteed to lose. Ergo, predictable map evolution and army strengths on the Eastern front (somewhat contained, in fresh 1.4.1 playthroughs on main branch, by what feels like a hidden coalition mechanic to contain anyone climbing much over 20000 faction strength - but that's another topic, unrelated to this thread).
  
  
• The horse archer problem: Archers are your main damage dealers in Bannerlord (2 quivers worth of safe damage, plus forcing the engagement on your terms - nothing compares). By virtue of mobility, cavalry survives way longer. Put heavily armoured archers on heavily armoured horses, and you get the most devastating unit in the game. Given their troop trees prioritise cavalry and archery, you'll suffer more casualties facing a high-tier Khuzait army than any other.

TL;DR : I'm not sure I mind the occasional high-tier army so much as I mind the specific conjunction of Khuzait too easily developing high-tier armies, and their high-tier armies being the best in the game.

Low tier Vlandia sucks. High tier Vlandia is tough, as you noticed. My own video of Derthert's late game army:



The other thing about Khuzait is they have an excellent tree progression. See all the troop trees here

Reddit - Dive into anything

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Dedicated infantry, archer, cavalry, and horse archer. It's straight up good. The special units don't suck either.

I haven't had trouble catching Khuzait parties, but I've always got 1:1 horses to infantry. The steppe bandits on the other hand, that 7.9 movement speed is nuts.

Thing about horse archers is you need to send your own cavalry after them. Have your cav follow you and get near the horse archers and have them attack. They will generally give chase at close range.

The other thing I do against horse cav is have my archers behind my infantry and cavalry behind that. Usually when they take that ride around your troops it doesn't end well for them, the front catches arrows with shields and the rear line kills them as they circle, with cav giving chase. Infantry that throws things is a +.

I guess that's why I took to riding a tough to kill horse (Imperial Charger) with good armor and a long polearm to chase archers. They are one of the biggest threats on the field.

 

[Dabos37]

I'm torn on this one. I actually like the notion that an undefeated army becomes a fearsome sight on the campaign map. I came across a serially victorious Derthert, and taking down a high tier Vlandian army felt like one of those epic moments that punctuate an exciting campaign. It's really interesting to me that you, and so many others, highlight Khuzait. I really think the high-tier army problem is specific to Khuzait:

• Their movement speed advantage: Both from high cavalry usage, and a broken cultural trait that gives +10% of 'Base' movement speed rather than +10% only to the cavalry component. Can anyone confirm that the AI does in fact receive the same culture bonus as the player? Even with stacked horses in your inventory, as the player you'll often struggle to catch up to retreating Khuzait armies. They'll always pick their fights rationally, and as such do not experience the normal frequency of army resets that other factions do. For the AI, that doesn't know to stack horses? They'll only ever get engaged by Khuzait when they're near-guaranteed to lose. Ergo, predictable map evolution and army strengths on the Eastern front (somewhat contained, in fresh 1.4.1 playthroughs on main branch, by what feels like a hidden coalition mechanic to contain anyone climbing much over 20000 faction strength - but that's another topic, unrelated to this thread).
  
  
• The horse archer problem: Archers are your main damage dealers in Bannerlord (2 quivers worth of safe damage, plus forcing the engagement on your terms - nothing compares). By virtue of mobility, cavalry survives way longer. Put heavily armoured archers on heavily armoured horses, and you get the most devastating unit in the game. Given their troop trees prioritise cavalry and archery, you'll suffer more casualties facing a high-tier Khuzait army than any other.

TL;DR : I'm not sure I mind the occasional high-tier army so much as I mind the specific conjunction of Khuzait too easily developing high-tier armies, and their high-tier armies being the best in the game.

Yep, I do agree with part of the problem are khuzaits, but I think It also could a be aproblem for factions which live in peace for a long time. Should these factions have an advantage against other factions which have been fighting wars more often? I mean, the advantage already exists in terms of war attrition but this makes It even worse for the faction which has been fighting and losing men, and It is maybe a bad thing in terms of snowballing.

I am ok with passive experience for AI, and I am ok with factions living peace times are able to get fresh and big armies but giving them the change of also getting full elite armies while in peace feels wrong IMO.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

Yep, I do agree with part of the problem are khuzaits, but I think It also could a be aproblem for factions which live in peace for a long time. Should these factions have an advantage against other factions which have been fighting wars more often? I mean, the advantage already exists in terms of war attrition but this makes It even worse for the faction which has been fighting and losing men, and It is maybe a bad thing in terms of snowballing.

I am ok with passive experience for AI, and I am ok with factions living peace times are able to get fresh and big armies but giving them the change of also getting full elite armies while in peace feels wrong IMO.

I guess thats inevitable if we're going to have the lords recruit and train troops like the player. Its either at the same rate as the player and you get mostly low tier armies or an accelerated rate which will give them mostly high tier elite armies over time. It will be hard to find the sweet spot in the middle. That's why I prefer the old party template system from Warband. It guaranteed that lords would have varied army compositions and was much easier to balance.

 

[Dabos37]

The solution or sweet spot in the middle would be something like keep the current XP gain for T1 and T2 units while slowing It down for +T3 units. But yes, this is the sweet spot in the middle for me and not sure what most of people think about It.

I personally like to see AI having to visit settlements to recruit but if this means that we have to choose between armies of recruits or full elite armies, I would also prefer the Warband recruiting system too.

 

[mexxico]

This is related to extreme perk bonuses. There are 4 perks giving xp.

1-Combat Tips : +15 xp per troop / day
2-Raise The Meek : +30 xp per troop / day for troops < tier 4
3-Walk It Off : +15 xp per troop / / day while traveling on map
4-A Good Day's Rest : +30 xp per troop / day while waiting at settlement

These xp bonuses are given per troop. It was per stack previously and changed to per troop. Of course per troop makes more sense but values did not reduced while changing to per troop. We are fixing it (reducing daily per troop effects to 3-5 instead of 15-30)

 

[Nakh]

This is related to extreme perk bonuses. There are 4 perks giving xp.

1-Combat Tips : +15 xp per troop / day
2-Raise The Meek : +30 xp per troop / day for troops < tier 4
3-Walk It Off : +15 xp per troop / / day while traveling on map
4-A Good Day's Rest : +30 xp per troop / day while waiting at settlement

These xp bonuses are given per troop. It was per stack previously and changed to per troop. Of course per troop makes more sense but values did not reduced while changing to per troop. We are fixing it (reducing daily per troop effects to 1-2-3 instead of 15-30)

Oh well, don't nerf "Raise the Meek" back to nothing please. It was like a breath of fresh air after all this looter farming in previous betas.