Camelry

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Earth Dragon

Sergeant
Been away for a bit, came back, disappointed that there aren’t Camelry Aserai options still and it’s hard to get War/Riding/Pack Camels. Why is this?

A lot of good improvements though from where the game was a few months ago. Very glad skills are becoming cross compatible and it seem like Archers are no longer “everything just dies before you get to me”.

But I’d be lying if I didn’t say Camelry was what I was most excited for and it is still oddly missing out of special captures (many of which advance off of them) and rare finds
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Been away for a bit, came back, disappointed that there aren’t Camelry Aserai options still and it’s hard to get War/Riding/Pack Camels. Why is this?

A lot of good improvements though from where the game was a few months ago. Very glad skills are becoming cross compatible and it seem like Archers are no longer “everything just dies before you get to me”.

But I’d be lying if I didn’t say Camelry was what I was most excited for and it is still oddly missing out of special captures (many of which advance off of them) and rare finds

No doubt the Aserai troop tree is lacking a camel rider. I think the cavalry branch tier 2 could be fitted with a camel. But also, as I said back then, the camel sizes on Bannerlord are a trully joke.

Native - Modified
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We want real desert dromedaries camels, the ones they shown us in the camelry devblog.
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In fairness with the small camels, speaking personally I already struggle to hit anything from the top of a camel. Part of the difficulty is muscle memory betraying me of course since I'm on a different mount, but I do believe that the extra height makes hitting infantry much harder than it normally would be.

While larger camels would be closer to reality, I worry that if you sit the rider any higher they'll be sitting ducks against infantry without especially long spears or other specialized equipment.

*EDIT*

Also yes, I absolutely agree that camels need more representation in the Aserai roster. Maybe camel archers?
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
In fairness with the small camels, speaking personally I already struggle to hit anything from the top of a camel. Part of the difficulty is muscle memory betraying me of course since I'm on a different mount, but I do believe that the extra height makes hitting infantry much harder than it normally would be.

While larger camels would be closer to reality, I worry that if you sit the rider any higher they'll be sitting ducks against infantry without especially long spears or other specialized equipment.

*EDIT*

Also yes, I absolutely agree that camels need more representation in the Aserai roster. Maybe camel archers?

The main weapon for a camel troop is undoubtedly a spear long enough to cause damage to the opponent on foot. The role is that of a skirmisherman, so it will be equipped with javelins or bow and arrows + a secondary weapon for self-defence in case it is dismounted.
If it is the PC who wants to acquire a camel but wants to hit enemies with a short mace...boi...you are in the wrong saddle or don't have a long enough weapon :iamamoron: .
 

Earth Dragon

Sergeant
That’s why traditional Camelry used mostly javelins/thrown weapons, and acted as a munitions train for Parthian Horse Archers.

The Camel Cataphracts used to push back the romans used lances as well (this was also when it was discovered that horses unaccustomed to camel smell would often break in disarray).

So to my knowledge, Camelry was not really a “sword” wielding unit.

But I don’t mind the compromise. Mounted Troops are egregiously misused in this game anyway. So if they are designed as more of a “slower higher HP” horse, I’ll bite. But I’d really love to see them in there
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
That’s why traditional Camelry used mostly javelins/thrown weapons, and acted as a munitions train for Parthian Horse Archers.

The Camel Cataphracts used to push back the romans used lances as well (this was also when it was discovered that horses unaccustomed to camel smell would often break in disarray).

So to my knowledge, Camelry was not really a “sword” wielding unit.

But I don’t mind the compromise. Mounted Troops are egregiously misused in this game anyway. So if they are designed as more of a “slower higher HP” horse, I’ll bite. But I’d really love to see them in there

Exactly and I will add that given what Taleworlds told us about the inspiration for Aserai...

Dev Blog 11/01/18 said:
Those who could not were pushed into the desert, left to raise goats and camels and raid caravans until they could plot a comeback. [...] The Aserai are based on the Arab tribes just before the great Islamic conquests of the seventh century, which created a diverse tri-continental caliphate whose scale and institutions don't really fit Bannerlord's political system. In the centuries before, the Arabs formed a series of confederations and kingdoms inside and on the margins of the Arabian and Syrian deserts.

...A similar type of bard would be totally plausible because of the pure early muslim expansion/Rashidun army - Sassanian army connection.

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This type of "catafracted" bard would not necessarily go hand in hand with this particular troop unit.
 
I have a 2k playthrough with Husnphree as my mount.. Either I'm really bad at the game or something but I can't hit unmounted enemies for **** with my single handed weapon and my executioner's axe lol

Either way, would love to see more camel related items and possibly another line of unit for the aserai? seeing they lack melee cav after the mamelukes get to horse archers stage
 
Make minor faction troops recruitable and then call it a day with Ghilman cavalry.

Still going to want some actual camel armour first though.
 

Earth Dragon

Sergeant
Make minor faction troops recruitable and then call it a day with Ghilman cavalry.

Still going to want some actual camel armour first though.
No Thank you.

I'm not looking for a gimped version of something that was rather commonplace, in particular pre-crusades. This is something that deserves Tier 5 main tree treatment. Let Skirmisher break into two paths, Archer and Camelry Skirmisher. The Aserai are already behind other factions anyway in main tree options when they should have more variety then most. Give Camels an actual "Camel" tag for upgrading.
 

Anushtegin

Sergeant
yeah, no. camels were used for mounted infantry, fightign from camel-back was rare and inefficient as they were slower than cavalry and much easier targets. i like my bannerlord without orientalism, thanks.
 
No Thank you.

I'm not looking for a gimped version of something that was rather commonplace, in particular pre-crusades. This is something that deserves Tier 5 main tree treatment. Let Skirmisher break into two paths, Archer and Camelry Skirmisher. The Aserai are already behind other factions anyway in main tree options when they should have more variety then most. Give Camels an actual "Camel" tag for upgrading.
Perhaps the mod in my signature might interest you then. I'll be honest when I say that I'm generally unsatisfied with what TW has made, prompting me to create my own troop 'overhaul'. Its got camelry, to say the least.

Haven't figured out a way to mod a camel tag in though. And I don't think the Aserai troop tree is the worst.
 

Earth Dragon

Sergeant
yeah, no. camels were used for mounted infantry, fightign from camel-back was rare and inefficient as they were slower than cavalry and much easier targets. i like my bannerlord without orientalism, thanks.
What? Then maybe you SHOULD do your history. Camelry wasn’t mostly phased out until the crusades. This is pre-crusades.

And we’ve show cases already why it was less preferred then horseback, but where it was used. But Camel Skirmishers and Cataphracts were a very real thing. It’s not romanticization at all. We’re talking about the one faction who would have employed Camelry in their auxiliary at this stage still.
 

Earth Dragon

Sergeant
Hilarious. This is a pre-Islam army and you choose an Islamic one. And the Berbers used lots of camel skirmishers and Archers throughout the 9th and 10th centuries still. They were more reliable then horses in much of the North African terrain (which this game simulates as the main Aserai territory)

And just like the Khuzait is representing the Turks that were in the region but also pulling a lot from Mongol culture, the Sassanids/Persians fall into the Aserai as well. They are on record as using camel Cataphracts against the Byzantines not too long before the rise of Islam (again, the centralized time of inspiration NOT 11th century, post-Islam Fatamids)

No other faction is cherry picking as much as you are wanting here, and Heavy camels phased out due to the tactics being used at the time. Bring back in the legions, as they are in this game, and heavy camels, used to drive light Cav into their own troops, have a role.

The only reason I’m okay with an adjustment to height and all that is you could never fully simulate they’re purpose.

And finally, they don’t even have pack camels in the game, which were used WAY more then horses in the supply train and trade caravans. Why is there only a single camel in game period?
 

Anushtegin

Sergeant
there are pack camels. did you ever raid a caravan? hilariously khuzaites have dromedaries too even though they should have "true" (bactrian) camels.

anways there's no solid evidence of 'cataphract' camels, that is camels with metal armor. likewise i never said camels weren't used in the desert. but for combat camels serve no real purpose, horses are always a better option and you'd rarely if ever only fight an infantry force except maybe on a raid.

either way, the evidence for "camelry" as opposed to mounted infantry is slim to non-existent. there will always be occasions were camel-mounted troops fought from camel-back due to circumstance (likewise cavalry would sometimes dismount to fight), but not design. it was reported that masud of ghazna had to mount his palace ghulams on camels on his march to dandanaqan, but that was because he was pursuing the seljuqs through the desert and because they had to slaughter their own horses for food (this story probably also gave raise to the saracen unique unit in AoE2 and the ghulam unit in bannerlord).

it is clear this bannerlord is supposed to take place in around 1080. just because some deviations from that here and there doesn't mean it isn't generally true. the way bannerlord simulates mounted infantry is by having mounts in your inventory. thus merley havign pack camels instead of havign dromedary-mounted troops is the way to go. but if they ever decide to add dedicated standard-bearer troops, that would change the equation.
 

Earth Dragon

Sergeant
Constant talk of pre-Islam and yet you say it’s clear the starting year of real world inspiration for the faction? Rather ignorant of the devs own blogs. And with an entire civilization (Battanian) that would already have been wiped out by that stage, in addition to the Empire (Post Roman split) already being evaporated. Again, you are cherry picking. And no other factions have such a strict cherry pick for unit inspiration.

And to be clear, the main ask is for skirmish camelry, which is well documented, to include The Fatimid Caliphate. So ignore That we know the Parthians used armored Camels as well as the Sassanians. This isn’t a myth or a rumor. They had them. But it doesn’t matter. Skirmisher can veer off to camel mounts which were used and reserve the armor for commanders looking for a status symbol.

And none of this changes the fact that camels aren’t being produced on the market. We shouldn’t have to raid to get access to something that should be commonplace on the Aserai market. This isn’t orientalist thinking at all.
 

Anushtegin

Sergeant
you talk like you were there and witnessed them yourself. so it shouldn't be hard to provide any evidence for them.

also, the dev blogs aren't 'canon'. literally half the troops in the aserai troop tree are mamlukes, who are clearly an exclusively islamic phenomenon. also battanians represent the celtic people resisiting norman invasion like the welsh, scots and irish. they are most definitely not 'wiped out' by 1080.

and the fact you're comparign berbers and arabs with iranian people especially in a pre-islamic context just further illustrates your strogn orientalism.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
And finally, they don’t even have pack camels in the game, which were used WAY more then horses in the supply train and trade caravans. Why is there only a single camel in game period?

There are pack camels. War camels and a special camel as well. They just can't be bought like normal -- no village produces them.
 

Earth Dragon

Sergeant
you talk like you were there and witnessed them yourself. so it shouldn't be hard to provide any evidence for them.

also, the dev blogs aren't 'canon'. literally half the troops in the aserai troop tree are mamlukes, who are clearly an exclusively islamic phenomenon. also battanians represent the celtic people resisiting norman invasion like the welsh, scots and irish. they are most definitely not 'wiped out' by 1080.

and the fact you're comparign berbers and arabs with iranian people especially in a pre-islamic context just further illustrates your strogn orientalism.

Stop the race baiting foolishness. It’s pathetic.

Each one of the factions has sub-factions that have also been incorporated in the main body. And it’s been explicitly expressed these are cultures with an amalgamation of 100s of years of history. You seem to just stubbornly see Mamelukes and ignore the core of the inspiration is pre-Islam and Berbers and Sassanids were both mentioned in blog posts. That’s why North Africans and Persians are also mentioned when I talk about military composition. You use other cultures in comparison with Battanians not just being the Celtic hold outs of mainland Europe, but you insist it can’t be done with Aserai for whatever reason

But I realize you get to pat yourself on the back if you use words like orientalism, so feel free to share it on Twitter.
 
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