caltrops?

[Rando]

Use them stop cavalry. They were like one of the first non-lethal weapons used and only for the purpose to stop all the freaking horses barreling towards you. That's just one of my minor complaints about the game is that if all my dudes are unconscious/killed and I'm still fighting 10+ black khergit/dark hunters, I am just chasing horse archers that can't hit me for about 5 mins so i just stand by a tree and wait for their arrows to run out.

I saw that caltrops were originally suggested as minor footnotes in 2 other posts, but i figured they needed a headline.


;(

 

[Worbah]

Nah, caltrops aren't really as important to me as an anti cavalry defence as some kind of sharpened poles. The hoof of a horse is really thick, and it's not subject to pain. They're a bit like fingernails, people have to saw and file them a bit from time to time. My mom rides a lot in her spare time and so I've been around horses a lot as a kid. besides, if their shoes were anything like they are today, the hoof would basically be kept intact with them.

 

[Mechstra]

The centre of a horse's foot (in the middle of the surrounding hoof) is soft, though, and this soft skin is easily broken by a 3-inch metal spike.

 

[alesch]

Aren't caltrops more common in katanafetishist/ninjaphile games? I might just be uninformed, but I've never heard anything about them being used as an anti-cavalry defense... it'd take a hell of a lot of caltrops to actually coat an area anyway...

 

[Rando]

So your saying it would be easier to carry 21 javelins or 72 arrows just on your person? If you actually had that much space on u, a large bag of caltrops would be just as feasible. And as for the whole ninja thing:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/information/artifacts/caltrop.htm

Hope that is enough justification (despite it being the CIA) if not, you could just google them. But yes, ninja's do use them, although they are much smaller (the caltrops, not the ninjas). But hey, ninja's use swords right? You wanna take swords out of the game to?


;(

 

[alesch]

Wow, CIA would definately not have been the first place I'd have gone looking for information about... well... anything really. It's kindof funny that I'd have so little faith in the collective intelligence of an INTELLIGENCE agency. In any case I was just saying that I associated caltrops with ninjas more than I did with any kindof anti-cavalry weapon. I'd never heard of it being used against cavalry at all, which makes me think it couldn't have been that popular.

When I googled Caltrops, I got nothing but ninja crap and some junk about keeping your cats off your furniture. Maybe it's not patriotic of me (but I live in Canada now so who cares?) but I'll take google over CIA on the use of caltrops in medieval europe.

 

[Cor Shan]

Well, in my stupid kiddie knight books, they are semi common.

 

[Rando]

Well I really wanted to quote the history channel special I saw on non-lethal weapons (cause they did like a 5 min piece on the use of them), but they didn't have it up. So I just went with the first one that mentioned it (why it was the cia I have no idea). The other link I can give you that I just thought of (I decided against the use of the pentagon website, wtf?) is www.dictionary.com which says:

A metal device with four projecting spikes so arranged that when three of the spikes are on the ground, the fourth points upward, used as a hazard to pneumatic tires or to the hooves of horses.

Anyway the only way I can explain why there are so many more NINJA than WEAPONS OF THE MEDIEVAL ERA websites is:

who is more likely to make a website, some wapenese-ninjafetishist or a college professor?


;(

 

[JohnathanStrange]

Wow, were caltrops used in our type of combats: chance encounters where we have virtually no time for preparing defenses or reconnoitering the terrain?

Even if one argues that caltrops are quickly emplaced, how many would you have to carry to prevent any horseman from simply riding around it?

It's been my impression caltrops if employed at all were placed in large numbers when armies formed up for battle; are you suggesting that the troops could carry in their saddlebags enough caltrops to make a difference?

In your example, you said they'd be effective when you're all alone facing 10 Khergits or Dark Knights, but Khergit horse archers wouldn't need to close with you anyway and unless caltrops are hugely effective, 10 Dark Knights to 1 Hero odds aren't gone to be easily overcome.

No, I like variety so I like your suggestion to consider, but having done that, I don't see it as being the answer to being hugely outnumbered as in your example. (I really am trying to see how realistic your ideas are - so no offense.)

Anyone know how caltrops would be usefully employed to defend a single man as in this scenario? Or how our tiny battles where the enemy's suddenly less than a minute's ride away would play out?

 

[Rando]

Well there are about 20 seconds or so before even horse dudes come to meet your party (not including the crossing of rivers or what have you), so there is some time to throw some down and back up. And NO they would not help you if you to much if you are all alone, but if you planted them down before all your dudes started getting killed, it might provide you with a slight situation improvement.


;(

 

[Fidelis]

Wow, CIA would definately not have been the first place I'd have gone looking for information about... well... anything really. It's kindof funny that I'd have so little faith in the collective intelligence of an INTELLIGENCE agency. In any case I was just saying that I associated caltrops with ninjas more than I did with any kindof anti-cavalry weapon. I'd never heard of it being used against cavalry at all, which makes me think it couldn't have been that popular.

When I googled Caltrops, I got nothing but ninja crap and some junk about keeping your cats off your furniture. Maybe it's not patriotic of me (but I live in Canada now so who cares?) but I'll take google over CIA on the use of caltrops in medieval europe.

I'm cynical, but goddamn, not that cynical.

You should have Googled for "caltrops medieval europe" instead of just "caltrops".

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/980700-schneck.htm
Under the "Early Obstacles" header.

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/IV16.html
Use Ctrl-F to search for caltrops.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery...&dekey=Caltrop&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a
Lots of nice information about the various definitions of caltrop. Notice that they use the same image from the CIA.gov link.

http://www.answers.com/topic/medieval-fortification
Also from answers.com, it lists caltrops as a method of medieval fortification.

Hopefully you can trust at least one of these sources. And may I add that I also hope that your distrust in the CIA has been loosened. It's really silly not to trust something the CIA puts on its website. In fact, it's absolutely ridiculous.[/url]

 

[Rando]

I've thought about how someone (OK, armagan) could add caltrops and this is the best solution I could think of. Make them set before the battle begins (like on the world map). Yes, these are chance encounters, but if you'll notice, a lot of time passes from the moment you see someone to the moment you enter battle (like an hour or more). So maybe caltrops could be dropped while you are standing still (a certain amount for every hour that passes or something). This way, caltrops would be a commodity you would have to buy over and over again, but would disappear from the map after you begin to travel (thus a few enemy parties could run over the same caltrops). Anyway, some sort of system like that would be cool (it would also make spotting a worthwhile skill) because, yeah, I don't think deploying them during battle would add any benefit to you.

 

[Destichado]

Even better: Deposit them as you walk

Pick a strategic point -having your DISMOUNTED troops hold that position- and spread a line of caltrops over, say, ten to twenty yards as you walk.
You can defend a valley pass, or wall off one of the sides of your "battles", or even make the cavalry go the long way around to get at you while you have a chance to make mincemeat of the infantry beforehand.

In this way, you'd actually have to THINK during a battle. Wow, how about that!!!


And caltrops were *quite* medieval, thank you. Were do you think we got the word? There aren't any Japanese words that end in "p", you know.

 

[wastelander]

Why not just give the main char a 'special' item slot for things like beer, wine, caltrops or ANY other cheap trick, medieval commanders used? The item would be used up like food and in case of caltrops, the speed of following enemy units would be decreased.

Wouldn't that be a good and moderately easy way of implementing them? Instead of going for the über-realistic version of making a hotkey in battle and upon hitting this key the caltrops spread out in a cone-shaped particle spray of small caltrop-shaped lowpoly-particles - affected by moving speed, wind direction and terrain modifications(for realistic bouncing) of course. It also think that foot soldiers shouldn't be excluded from their.

Don't get me wrong, this wasn't meant to be sarcastic. I'd really love such kind of features, since I really like the battle system, but

1st - IMO there are far too few tactical elements on the world map.
2nd - You would have to program at least new dynamic objects for the battle map, which I can imagine is a serious pain in the neck.
3rd - Personally, I wouldn't use them much, because I'd find it too dangerous that my own soldiers would step onto them.

All my regards
~Wasty

 

[Crazed Rabbit]

As I recall, the byzantines used caltrops several times when fighting the Frankish crusaders (yes, I know they weren't all franks). They'd spread out a whole bunch in front of their infantry to counter the heavy cav the crusaders had, but the knights just rode around them and then beat the byzantines. I believe this occured more than once just in the series of battles they fought.

So while caltrops could be effective in a chokepoint, you wouldn't have a lot of time to set them up. And the would just ride around them, not to mention that it would be impassible for just aobut everyone. Though if you just sat and waited for an enemy you could get a prebattle set up time.

Crazed Rabbit

 

[Caius]

Yes because the horsemen in this game that you face (If they are anything excepting knights or actual horsemen/man at arms) come in such large groups at a time (3 maybe?) and they attack your infantry first (Seem to anyone else they all come for you instead?). I think a more practical and combat efficient way would be that if you actually did use infantry have about 5-10 pikemen that would spread out in your archers and hold their pikes up at a 45 degree angle. This game is pretty much realistic in the way of combat, so having a hotkey like someone mentioned would be outright (Sorry to offend) stupid. And to actually spread out caltrops over 20 yards would take a while even if you did just have a sack and you tossed them out.

 

[Lamaros]

A two handed polearm owns calvary; time the thrust properly.

And to agree with what has been said above. Caltrops are very good versus calvary but they are for prepared battlefields, so it doesn't make much sense in the game context.

 

[Skeletor9000]

Seems to me that caltrops would make for a rather defensive (and boring) battle. You'd just deploy the caltrops and wait behind them until the enemy was dumb enough to walk over or smart enough to go around. Or if the AI was good, they'd wait for you or decimate you with archers. So either the AI would be dumb or you'd retreat. It seems to me like set spear/pikes would be much more effective in countering cavalry. They're mobile and they won't hurt your own troops. If you're going to bring up caltrops, though, why not throw in ditches, pits, and abatis? They don't really fit the small scale battles, in my opinion. Though once you're facing huge armies, it might make sense. That would require some sort of pre-battle planning phase or something, which seems like something that would be in the sequel, if at all.