Byzantine research

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Just some research I put together which ceaser said would be good to have done,on behalf of 1200 mod, I hope you all enjoy it. Im a bit busy at the moment but I hope to include more research in regards to Byzantine weapons,Constantinople it self and other Byzantine towns and city's.



Byzantine unit tree: includes armour, weapons for each unit, including the emperors armour  , and  also includes info regarding the Byzantine navy, and  information regarding recruitment and the ability to allow the player to take control of the empire for themselves. Other notes regarding the Byzantine and 1200 mod


Unit tree village

starting unit:sad:branching into skirmisher and archer tree)

pilso (should be a mix of archer and javillen based weapons, if possible ??),(I would suggest not using a hat or helmet for this unit)

pic1:http://totalwar.honga.net/images/medieval2/bc2/unit_info/byzantium/ere_archer_info.png
pic2:http://grippingbeast.com/sizeimage.php?size=150&image=photos/byz13.jpg
pic3:http://totalwar.honga.net/images/medieval2/m2tw/unit_info/byzantium/s_archer_militia_info.png
skirmishers

tier 1:peltastoi
pic1:http://totalwar.honga.net/images/medieval2/bc2/unit_info/byzantium/ere_jav_info.png
pic2: http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/4155/acontistaejz7.jpg

tier 2: menaulatoi
pic 1: http://totalwar.honga.net/images/medieval2/bc2/unit_info/byzantium/ere_heavy_jav_info.png
archer


tier1: toxotia
pic1;http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/3224/toxotaefinaldy7.jpg
pic2:http://www.planetfigure.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21027&thumb=1&d=1214488441

tier 2: mourtati
pic1:http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1646/mourtatoifinalyj3.jpg
pic2:http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqirgSC5_DN3gfcWp9eDp0tUcptrNqEimL5zkgZMaH8ZKV6wk
pic3:http://totalwar.honga.net/images/medieval2/m2tw/unit_info/byzantium/byzantine_guard_archers_info.png



horse archers (branches from toxotia)

tier1:cavalarii

tier 2: skythikon


unit tree castle and town:

infantry tree
starting unit: Akolouthoi
pic1:http://totalwar.honga.net/images/medieval2/bc2/unit_info/byzantium/ere_light_spearmen_info.png
pic2:http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4975/contaratoifinalzf6.jpg


tier 1: Acritae
pic1:http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7061/acritaefinalrs0.jpg
pic2:http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/3224/toxotaefinaldy7.jpg
pic3:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Byzantine_fresca_from_St-Lucas.jpg/200px-Byzantine_fresca_from_St-Lucas.jpg


tier 2: Skutatoi
pic1:http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/Byz/116cq.jpg
pic2:http://totalwar.honga.net/images/medieval2/m2tw/unit_info/byzantium/byzantine_infantry_info.png
pic3:http://www.flickr.com/photos/cool-art/4476838526/ (2 on the right I perosnally can not stand the helmet worn by centre figure).
n.b.(very simillar to the okia unit you already use)

tier 3: Vestiaritai(heavy infantry unit)
pic1:http://www.modellbau-universe.de/uploadfiles/original/se_h54005.jpg
pic2:http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/2575/spathariivasileosfinalnq1.jpg
pic3:http://www.medieval.co.nz/images/10-12thheavy.jpg (centre figure)
pic4:http://totalwar.honga.net/images/medieval2/bc2/unit_info/byzantium/ere_heavy_swordsmen_info.png



Heavy cavarly tee (recruited differently maybe from some type of stable master??)

tier1:Strataoi
pic1:http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/2156/stratiotaeug2finalmt2.jpg
pic2:http://totalwar.honga.net/images/medieval2/bc2/unit_info/byzantium/ere_medium_lancer_info.png



tier2:  Kataphraktoi:
pic1:http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2159/scholariifinal1ry3.jpg
pic2:http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/6936/scholariifinal2qc7.jpg
pic3: http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/5841/1211699679052855490S500x500Q85.jpg

tier3: Imperial Kataphraktoi:
pic1:http://totalwar.honga.net/images/medieval2/bc2/unit_info/byzantium/bodyguard_ere_info.png
pic2:http://totalwar.honga.net/images/medieval2/bc2/unit_info/byzantium/ere_proniarioi_info.png




unit tree imperial palace only (can only be recruited from officer in charge of the imperial army??, none of these units can tier up), (however Constantinople can still recruit from town and castle troop tree in normal way).

Scholai  imperial guard: pic1:http://totalwar.honga.net/images/medieval2/bc2/unit_info/byzantium/ere_elite_spearmen_info.png

Vangarian guard:
pic1:http://www.larsbrownworth.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Varangian_Guard.jpg
pic2:http://totalwar.honga.net/images/medieval2/bc2/unit_info/byzantium/ere_elite_varangian_axemen_info.png


Lationkon (western knights in service of the empire):
pic1:http://whitewraithe.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/knights_templar1.jpg
pic2:http://www.ballantynethebrave.com/uploads/SCAN0058.JPG
pic3:http://medieval2.heavengames.com/albums/Kingdoms_Official_Screenshots/938849_20070412_screen001.jpg 

N.b. There heraldry would probably have been that of HRE most likely since the HRE gave the Byz's quite a lot of support. However you could have knights having a Byzantine themed heraldry



N.B.  The officer in charge of the royal guard was called the prtospatharios.



N.B.: whilst it is clear all these units did exist,  due to the passing of time and different translations, there are many names for these units which I have put in my troop tree. However regardless of the name the function,purpose and status of these units are all the same regardless of name.

N. B.apoulgise didn't add any real info regarding these units but I am quite busy at the moment should be able to give you more info if  required soon.


Regarding Byzantine weapons

-cavalry were the  only unit  that used the mace.
- byzantines used 2 different types of sword : the spathion which was straight and double edged and differed only in details of the hilt from the typical ‘sword of war’ found in Western Europe, and the paramerion which appears to have been a form of single-edged, perhaps slightly curved, sabre. Most Byzantine soldiers would have worn swords as secondary weapons and have used a spear as there primary weapon, due to the fact that the Byzantine's primary enemy were the horse archer of army's of the Turks.


Emperors  Armour

picture 1:http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3558/aa5iw2.jpg
picture 2:http://i30.tinypic.com/33ykzz9.jpg
picture 3: http://www.grippingbeast.com/sizeimage.php?size=320&image=photos/emp2.jpg
picture 4: http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/7041/dressroyalsie7.jpg
picture5:http://www.flickr.com/photos/cool-art/4476061021/

N.B. Whilst most of these images are from the 11th century I was unable to find pictures of the imperial armour during the 12th century. However due to the close time frame it is very unlikely the imperial armour had changed much, this is tougher backed up by images of the emperor's armour  during the 14th century which is almost identical to the 11th and previous centurys version of the armour, except for some late medieval armour addition.

Byzantine navy

 
-primary naval vessel of the Byzantine navy during the time frame was the Dromon which is a direct development of the trireme of ancient Greece. The dromon had a central tower near the main mast from which marines could use bows and spears and other projectiles, ships were equipped with Greek fire and catapults capable of hurling 10 kg projectiles up to 250 meters.

Dromon pictures:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/Byzantine_dromon_reconstruction.png
http://www.agiasofia.com/emperors/dromon.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Byzantinische_Dromone.PNG
http://sfr.ee.teiath.gr/historia/historia/graphics/30/30-56c.jpg



the commander of the navy  was the megas doux (grand duke),who was also the military commander of Crete, during this period the post was held by the Kontostephanos family (I am finding it hard to get hold of the exacts persons name).


-this is a web link regarding Byzantine naval chain of command, hope it can be of use to you:

http://www.neobyzantine.org/byzantium/army/navy2.php










List of revolt and civil wars in 1200


. coup by John kommneons the fat against alexios III Angelos in Constantinople is violently suppressed

-1200-1206: revolt and establishment of breakaway regime by Leo chamaretos in Laconia

-1200-1208; revolt and  establishment of breakaway regime by leo Sgouros in NE peloponnese and central Greece.



Byzantine court and imperial dress

This is a good link in regard to Byzantine nobility and court dress, which also includes palace dancers dress:

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?104247-A-Quick-Guide-to-Byzantine-Dress-(8th-to-12th-century)



Byzantine Imperial none combat dress


Emperors/empress  dress


http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Medieval/Bio/NicephorusIII.jpg

http://holytrip.com/turkey/image/Alexios%20III%20Komnenos.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Jan2_Alexios1.jpg/220px-Jan2_Alexios1.jpg

http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/topicimages/a/al/alexios_i_komnenos.gif

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cool-art/4475671065/in/photostream/  (should be purple)





Recruitment

My advice regarding recruitment is that, all royal units should only be availableee to a player who has become Byzantinenene lord and can only get hold of these units though talking protospatharios (in exactlylyly same way as originalnalal lord of the rings mod), these units will cost a lot anavailableablele in limited numbers.however by increasing  your reputation with the emperor, these units will become cheaper and more avabile  If the player does take over and become emperor (discussed later on), then these units should be free and be available in a large number but not to large to make the player to powerful.


Regarding cavalry units they should be available from castles and city's only, to obtain them the player should have to talk to the stable master. Professional units should be available from castles and city's, be recruited in the same way as a village in native. Skirmishers should be available from villages only (historically accurate because the skirmishers in the Byzantine army were mainly peasantry levies),recruited same way as normal.




Becoming emperor or king


This is a suggestion for a game play element regarding 120 mod in general which I think would be extremely fun and unique. It would work  like this if the players faction ruler/king/emperor, is captured or killed by the enemy,if the player has high enough favor  (over 60??) with a certain number of lords the player should be given the option ask them to support the player with there military coup. If enough of them agree, the player should then be given the option to persuade/bribe the population of the capital city e.g. Constantinople to let you take the throne, however  even if you succeed here you can not become official emperor. Therefore the player has to kill the original emperor to truly gain the throne, after this  the player should have to head back to the capital were a ceremony takes place, were he is appointed by the head religious official of that nation as ruler and is also given the royal armour weapons and clothing, after this the player is then the official king of that faction.


May I suggest that if you do go ahead of this that you should include this mod,since I think it would be extremely good with this feature of becoming king.

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,116424.0.html


N.B. I hope this fact sheet helps you in anyway, apologise if you feel I may have been a bit bosey in any areas,
 
great post. although i'd suggest revising it because a lot of the text for picture addresses weren't written properly and their link isn't available. other than that, great post.

and seconded the motion on the diplomacy thing. :smile:
 
Thank you very much and sorry about the links, i think next time i shall add them after spell check. :grin:

Before i forget some of those images belong to the tw mods broken cresent and the complete byzantine unit roster mod.



 
Good post!
I'll add to the "List of revolt and civil wars in 1200" Manuel Kamytzes' revolt in Macedonia (together with his son-in-law Dobromir Hris) and Thessaly, although it was squashed relatively soon after the start of the mod.
For the Byzantine clothes, I have the ebook (pdf file) for "Byzantine fashions", where the pics like this one are from. If you want, I can send it to you (edit: actually, seems I've already uploaded it before, so here's the link).
Also, for the unit trees - don't forget that the Warband version will have 4 standart troop trees - peasant levies (from villages), urban militias (from towns), professional soldiers (from castles) and nobles/knights (from castles). Thus f.e. I've included the Bulgarian pronoiaroi as a first tier unit in the "noble/knight" castle tree, which could be done for Byzantium as well (though I don't know how they'd upgrade in Byzantium's case).

Oh, and I very much like your idea about "becoming emperor/king" and it would be great if it's doable for all factions in general, though I think it would require quite a great ammount of work to script all those conditions and their order. But, of course, that's for Cruger or some other coder to say.
 
Thank you very much :grin:, I wish I could do more for the mod in regrades to models and coding but I have very little skill in these areas (infarct none at all in making models). Sadly my time is limited due to work and academical restraints. However I can still help give info for this mod, also dialogue which needs I should be able to do if your interested. I personally feel that whilst the 4 recruitment system works fine for most European  such as England particularly because of the fyrd, that all peasants were trained as longbow men. However I do feel that the Byzantine city and castle unit tree should be combineddue to the fact the byzantines had the most professional army in the memedievalorld at that time, however I do think things like vevenitianrossbow men could be included in the city tree (maybe recrutable from taverns??), due to the large numbers of merchants in Byzantine city's. Now regarding the Proniarioi now from what I can gavor from the internet and what not, they were actuallyy quite toughcavalryydeignedd to mimic theNormannknightss they faced, due to the fact that  Kataphraktoi wereineffectiveeagainstt theNormannknightss (due to there impossible to stopcavalryy charges),in facttByzantineemilitaryymanualss instruct commanders to use ambush tacticsagainstt theNormanss and to avoid  open combat. This unit might be an interesting one to use for a tier one cavalry unit maybe?

http://totalwar.honga.net/unit.php?v=bc2&f=byzantium&d=aor_wanatolian_nobles



Also have you though about adding rebellions to the mod since during this period rebellions across Europe were common, even in politically stable England against king John (evil bastered who deserved it).


Btw: this total war mod is an open resoruce regarding its models and units,i dont know if by using them it would help you in regrades to making new units.



http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=718
 
I think rebellions would be a bit much.

I am, however, disheartened at the fact that there are so few claimants. I wish there was one claimant per faction. :razz:
 
just take a break from my Augustus and my res gestae work :cool:



That's a shame, but yes adding some more claimets would be good that would be infact classed as a rebellion :grin:


Also apoulgise for the spelling in the orignal post :oops: my open office doesnt seem to be working properly.
 
Nerius said:
I think rebellions would be a bit much.

I am, however, disheartened at the fact that there are so few claimants. I wish there was one claimant per faction. :razz:

Not all kingdoms had claimants going around. France didn't, Aragon didn't, and so on. We'll give claimants only to those factions with problems of dynastic legitimacy, but we're not gonna make up a claimant or make someone who was never so into it.
 
Yes, but it's the Roman Empire... everyone was a claimant!  :lol:

Besides, I'm not 100% updated on the history of Alexios III Angelos but from what I gather from wiki, I'd assume that Alexios IV Angelos would be a good candidate.. even though he'd be in a prision somewhere I would suspect. So maybe breaking him loose and then starting the revolution would work?
 
Isn't that will make it somekind of a special quest and then it lead to the claimnant quest as well? I don't think our developers will agree on this, since the first priority is historical accuracy, so a claimnant who should be imprisoned in 1200 break loose by the player and go rebel against the king cannot be accurate at all.

That is just my guess. You should look to Cesar and Cruger response.
 
Nerius said:
Yes, but it's the Roman Empire... everyone was a claimant!  :lol:

Besides, I'm not 100% updated on the history of Alexios III Angelos but from what I gather from wiki, I'd assume that Alexios IV Angelos would be a good candidate.. even though he'd be in a prision somewhere I would suspect. So maybe breaking him loose and then starting the revolution would work?

Haven't you looked at the planned companions? Alexios Doukas, who would be Alexios V in 1204, is one of them. You can start figuring it out...

Besides, Alexios IV was not in jail. His father, the former Emperor Isaac II, was in jail, and was set free for a while. But his son Alexios IV fled and found shelter with Philipp von Hohenstaufen, the Holy Roman Emperor and his brother in law. Also, he had a mysterious meeting with Bonifacio de Montferrato, when Bonifacio, leader of the Fourth Crusade, left the siege of Zara to visit Philipp. What for, I don't know, but probably Bonifacio and Alexios discussed how to take over Constantinople and place Isaac on the throne again.

Whether Enrico Dandolo was aware of that or not, how he reacted and what plans did he have, I don't know. And I'd like to.
 
Cèsar de Quart said:
Nerius said:
Yes, but it's the Roman Empire... everyone was a claimant!  :lol:

Besides, I'm not 100% updated on the history of Alexios III Angelos but from what I gather from wiki, I'd assume that Alexios IV Angelos would be a good candidate.. even though he'd be in a prision somewhere I would suspect. So maybe breaking him loose and then starting the revolution would work?
Haven't you looked at the planned companions? Alexios Doukas, who would be Alexios V in 1204, is one of them. You can start figuring it out...

Besides, Alexios IV was not in jail. His father, the former Emperor Isaac II, was in jail, and was set free for a while. But his son Alexios IV fled and found shelter with Philipp von Hohenstaufen, the Holy Roman Emperor and his brother in law. Also, he had a mysterious meeting with Bonifacio de Montferrato, when Bonifacio, leader of the Fourth Crusade, left the siege of Zara to visit Philipp. What for, I don't know, but probably Bonifacio and Alexios discussed how to take over Constantinople and place Isaac on the throne again.

Whether Enrico Dandolo was aware of that or not, how he reacted and what plans did he have, I don't know. And I'd like to.
Haha well, I didn't that the companions were important people!
 
There are several misspellings, and I still don't know why some names are in Greek and some in Latin... and it's a little confusing, but from what I get, it's a nice start so far.

I do like the idea of a palace units troop tree.
 
apologise for the misspellings but like i said my word document programme isn't working so causing somevery strange spelling mistakes to occur. Regarding the Latin and Greek I'm afraid i do not speak or know the languages, so apologise there. glad you like the palace guard, i  wasn't to sure about it my self but i though it would be cool :grin:. I was also thinking what do you think about byzantine city and castle infantry unit tress being the same,except the addition of Venetian  style units to the city one?
 
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