Buy land for a profitable venture

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Kellick

Sergeant
WB
So we've found a half-finished feature. If you talk to a guildmaster with cheatmenu on you get the option to "buy land for a profitable venture" You then are given a list of the different businesses you could start and how much they will cost, and approximately how much it will cost to run and how profitable it might be.

Here is the guildmaster dialogue from conversation.txt:
dlga_mayor_talk:mayor_investment_possible 69631 1095  2 30 2 144115188075856163 1 567 3 288230376151711845 57 288230376151711844 I_wish_to_buy_land_in_this_town_for_a_productive_enterprise  1121  0 NO_VOICEOVER
and thanks to kefka95 here is what it needs to be changed to so that it works without cheatmenu:
dlga_mayor_talk:mayor_investment_possible 69631 1095  2 30 2 144115188075856163 0 567 3 288230376151711845 57 288230376151711844 I_wish_to_buy_land_in_this_town_for_a_productive_enterprise  1121  0 NO_VOICEOVER

Your choices of business ventures is as follows:
Enterprise name & description Buildcost Input/run Output/run Overhead/run Base Item Price
A mill and bakery, to make bread from grain 1500 6 6 30 50
A brewery, to make ale from grain 2500 1 2 50 120
A tannery, to make leather from hides 8000 3 3 50 220
A wine press, to make wine from grapes 5000 4 2 60 220
An oil press, to make oil from olives 4500 6 2 80 450
An ironworks, to make tools from iron 3500 2 2 60 410
A weavery and dyeworks, to make velvet from silk and dye 10000 2 2 160 1025
A weavery, to make wool cloth from wool 6000 2 2 120 250
A weavery, to make line from flax 6000 2 2 120 250

If you have a negative relationship with the local lord or the town itself then you will not be able to setup shop. Also if you are at war with the owning faction then you cannot setup shop.

Input/run is how many of the raw material is used. Output/run is how many finished goods you get. Overhead/run is how much labor,upkeep, etc costs. Base item price is for reference. Now I am not sure about dye, it is a secondary resource for velvet but the code for the player owned facilitys are seperate from the code for normal consumption so I suspect that dye is not actually used to K.I.S.S.

You have the option to have them not sell the finished good so it piles up in the warehouse (your employees inventory) so you could go and sell it yourself, or you can just let them sell it locally for you.

If you stock raw materials in thier inventory they will use them first, otherwise they will buy locally.

So you can micromanage it or set it and forget it.

I am trying to work out what are the best locations for each type depending on if you are going to buy and sell yourself or not.  Here is an analysis on potential profit by Monnikje:
Bread: For 1500 denars I could buy a mill and bakery, to make bread from grain. Even though it's the cheapest initial investment, it's not really worth the trouble. 6 units of grain will be converted into 6 units of bread, so a full warehouse will last only 7 weeks. After that time the baker will search the local market for grain. Cheap grain can be bought for 20 denars per unit, but bread is mostly sold for 50 denars. Also the working crew costs 30 denars per week, giving a profit of 150 denars per week. Not only will the initial costs be earned in 10 weeks, the profit is so low that it's actually not worth the trouble.
Ale: A brewery seems to be a better investment than a bakery. Only 1 unit of grain is needed to produce 2 units of ale, which sell for 120 each. The workforce costs 50 denars per week. That means the profit is 170 per week, and the stock can hold out for 42 weeks. This seems a lot better than producing bread. The only downside is the initial building costs: 2500 denars, which will take 15 weeks to earn back.
Leather: A tannery has one of the highest build costs: 8000 denars. The workers cost 50 denars per week, and they convert 3 units of hides, which you can get for 90 each, into 3 units of leather, which sell for 220 denars. That's a profit of 340 per week. A lot better than the previous two, although the stock only lasts for 14 weeks. The big downside are the buildcosts, which take 24 weeks to pay back for.
Wine: wine presses cost 5000 denars to build, and the men stamping those grapes cost 60 denars per week. Grapes can be bought for as low as 90 denars each, while wine mostly sells for 220 each. Of course this can be raised in certain cities to be over 300 denars, but for my analysis I'm using the averages. The workers use 4 units of grapes to produce 2 units of wine. That's a profit of 20 per week. If build in a profitable city it can be raised to 180 per week. The inventory will be out of stock in 10 weeks, while earning the initial investment costs 28 weeks in a profitable city and 250 weeks in an average one.
Oil: An olive press is cheaper than a wine press, costing only 4500 denars. The workforce is more expensive: 80 denars per week. And even though oil sells for a nice 450 denars per unit, there is a large catch: you need 6 units of olives, which you can buy for 120 denars each, to produce 2 units of oil. In 7 weeks you'll be out of stock, and the profit is only 100 per week. It would take 45 weeks to make earn your investment back.
Tool: Tools seem to be very profitable. Not only has an ironworks a very low buildcost of 3500 denars, they also use 2 units of iron, which you can buy for around 100 denars each, to produce 2 units of tools, which sell for 410 each. The workers are cheap too: only 60 denars per week. That means a profit of 560 per week, allowing you to earn your investment back in only 7 weeks. And another bright side: the stock will run out in only 21 weeks.
Velvet: The trade good that is most expensive to buy, selling for 1025 each. Is it worth the trouble? You'd need 2 units of raw silk, costing 600 denars each, and one unit of dyes, which can be obtained for as low as 150 denars, to produce 2 units of velvet. This means the supply lasts for 14 weeks. The workforce is expensive, costing 160 denars per week. A profit of 540 per week can be obtained, which sounds pretty nice. But the initial buildcosts of the weavery and dyeworks are 10,000 denars: it would take 19 weeks before you'd earned that back.
Wool Cloth & Linen: Both the production of Wool Cloth and Line is very similar. Both use a weavery, which has a buildcost of 6000 denars; both use a similar workforce costing 120 denars per week; both use 2 units of raw materials to produce 2 units of the end product, meaning the supply can last for 21 weeks; both sell on the market for 250 denars each. The only difference is in the raw materials: obtained at the right place, you can get flax for 40 denars each, and wool for 50. Wool cloth thus gives a profit of 280 denars per week, meaning the investment will be earned back in 22 weeks, while Linen gives a profit of 300 denars per week, earning back the buildcosts in 20 weeks.

This was all originally posted in Monnikje's excellent AAR Me, Floris http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,115780.msg2944219.html#msg2944219 Note that King Floris is a master trader and so will be stocking his inventories himself which is what his analysis is based around. If you plan on just building them and leaving them alone then ymmv, although so far I see that ironworks in Dhirim and Curaw work well. Velvet anywhere besides Jelkala (because they buy silk at average price out of thin air it seems in other towns, in Jelkala silk is both produced there and used so the price on silk is always high).

Ok, here is the town industrial data:
Town # Town Name Wool Looms Breweries Pottery Kilns Smithies Mills Tanneries Wine Presses Olive Presses Acres of Grain Acres of Vineyard Linen Looms Salt Pans Fishing Fleet Silk Looms
1 Sargoth 20 2 10 15 5 2 1 2 1000 1000 15 0 0 0
2 Tihr 20 2 10 15 5 2 1 2 1000 1000 0 5 25 0
3 Veluca 20 2 10 15 5 2 10 2 1000 1000 0 0 0 0
4 Suno 20 2 10 15 5 2 1 15 1000 1000 0 0 0 0
5 Jelkala 20 2 10 15 5 2 1 2 1000 1000 0 0 30 20
6 Praven 20 10 10 15 5 4 1 2 1000 1000 0 0 10 0
7 Uxkhal 20 2 10 15 15 4 1 2 1000 1000 0 0 0 0
8 Reyvadin 35 2 10 25 5 4 1 2 1000 1000 0 0 0 0
9 Khudan 20 2 10 18 5 3 1 2 1000 1000 0 0 5 0
10 Tulga 20 2 10 15 5 2 1 2 1000 1000 0 2 0 0
11 Curaw 20 2 10 19 5 2 1 2 1000 1000 0 0 10 0
12 Wercheg 20 2 10 15 5 2 1 2 1000 1000 0 5 25 0
13 Rivacheg 30 2 10 15 5 5 1 2 1000 1000 0 0 20 0
14 Halmar 20 2 10 15 5 3 1 2 1000 1000 0 2 0 0
15 Yalen 20 2 10 20 5 2 5 5 1000 1000 0 0 25 0
16 Dhirim 20 2 10 30 5 4 1 2 1000 1000 0 0 0 0
17 Ichamur 40 2 10 15 5 2 1 2 1000 1000 0 0 0 0
18 Narra 35 2 10 15 5 2 4 2 1000 1000 0 0 0 0
19 Shariz 20 0 10 15 5 5 3 2 1000 1000 0 0 5 0
20 Durquba 20 0 10 15 5 5 2 2 1000 1000 0 0 0 0
21 Ahmerrad 20 0 10 15 5 5 2 2 1000 1000 0 0 0 0
22 Barriye 20 0 10 15 5 5 1 2 1000 1000 0 0 0 0

Here is what a village assigned to a particular town gets (this includes the castle villages as well, they still are assigned a tradecenter which is a town but I do not know which go where yet, this is obvious ingame as you can watch the villager partys):
Town assigned to (by name) Town assigned to (by #) Cattle Sheep Grain Vineyard Olives Apiaries(hives) Mills Pottery Kilns Acres of Flax Silk Farms Fur Traps Salt Pans Iron Deposits Acres of Dates Linen Looms
Sargoth 1 35-65 90-120 10000 500 200 1 1 1 8000
Tihr 2 35-65 90-120 10000 500 200 1 1 1
Veluca 3 35-65 90-120 10000 2000 4000 1 1 1
Suno 4 35-65 90-120 12000 500 5000 1 1 1
Jelkala 5 35-65 90-120 10000 500 200 1 1 1 500
Praven 6 35-65 90-120 15000 500 200 1 1 1
Uxkhal 7 35-65 90-120 15000 500 200 1 1 1
Reyvadin 8 100 90-120 12000 500 200 1 1 1
Khudan 9 35-65 90-120 10000 0 0 1 1 1 4
Tulga 10 35-65 150 8000 500 200 1 1 1 1 1
Curaw 11 35-65 90-120 10000 0 0 1 1 1 3 10
Wercheg 12 75 90-120 12000 500 200 1 1 1
Rivacheg 13 35-65 90-120 10000 500 200 1 1 1
Halmar 14 35-65 90-120 10000 500 200 1 1 1 1
Yalen 15 35-65 90-120 10000 2000 200 1 1 1
Dhirim 16 35-65 90-120 10000 500 200 1 1 1 7
Ichamur 17 35-65 90-120 12000 500 200 1 1 1 1
Narra 18 35-65 90-120 10000 500 200 1 1 1 2
Shariz 19 30 150 7000 2000 3000 1 1 1 2000 1 8000
Durquba 20 30 150 7000 2000 3000 1 1 1 1 8000 30
Ahmerrad 21 30 150 9000 2000 4000 1 1 1 8 2000
Barriye 22 30 150 5000 2000 3000 1 1 1 2000 3 5 8000

What is interesting there is that supply/demand works both ways. So now we know why Flax sells huge in Durquba; each village assigned to it has 30 looms!

Ok, I have found the secret of the spice...It is of course the Shai-Halud...uhh...some bits of code. Tulga has base production of 100. Ichamur 40, Shariz and Barriye 30. While I am not exactly sure the base production and consumption numbers mean in terms of in-game items, I strongly suspect 50 units is 1 tradeable item.

Here is the skinny on dye too. Jelkala and Barriye produce 50 units per cycle.

Hmmm...Suno really shouldn't be a big wine producer with only 1 press and grape production there only average. Still it tends to be as good a wine producer as oil.
Also we can see why raw silk is an awful tradegood. It is only used in Jelkala (to make velvet), which is also where it is produced. Dye is also only used to make velvet, so again Jelkala is the only place to sell it.

Now if the business will always acquire supply on its own, regardless of if it can be obtained locally or not then Velvet & Dye works all over might be the way to go. If it cannot then Jelkala is the only place to build one but you will want to manually sell the velvet elsewhere.

Likewise, Shariz, Barriye and Sargoth are the only places to get flax. Iron from Curaw, Dhirim, Narra, Ahmerrad and Barriye. Veluca, Suno and all 4 Sarranid cities are the best (but not only place) to get olives. Veluca, Yalen and once again the Sarranids are the best suppliers of grapes.

Remember though that Suno has a lot of oil presses (so they will compete for olives) and Veluca has a lot of wine presses (so they will compete for grapes). Praven also has an assload of brewerys so that is definitly not the place for one. Actually Curaw doesn't look like such a bad place for a smithy after all (better than Dhirim should be, as it has less of its own...not to mention it doesn't get sieged as often...if you cannot fiercely and actively protect Dhirim it is probably the worst place for a business)

I strongly suspect the linen looms assigned to Durquba's villages instead of to itself was a mistake on the devs part. Being as industry is concentrated in the towns and raw materials production in the villages (other than basic needs like 1 mill and 1 kiln) We also see why pottery is a pretty useless good, everyone produces a little bit.

Fishing Fleets by village (this is done per individual village):
Village # Village Name Fishing Fleets
1 Yaragar 15
3 Azgad 15
8 Haen 15
9 Buvran 15
20 Uslum 15
21 Bazeck 15
23 Ilvia 15
27 Glunmar 15
30 Ruvar 20
31 Ambean 15
35 Fearichen 15
47 Epeshe 15
49 Tismirr 15
51 Jelbegi 15
56 Fenada 15
66 Fisdnar 15
67 Tebandra 15
68 Ibdeles 15
69 Kwynn 15
77 Rizi 25
79 Istiniar 15
81 Odasan 15
85 Ismirala 15
87 Udiniad 15
90 Jamiche 15
Yes, Tebandra, that is not a mistake (at least not on my part, but probably on the devs since it is inland and not near a river and there were others that I thought more suitable candidates that did not have boats, like Shapeshte 16 or Ruldi 24) Fishing fleets don't affect businesses but for the sake of economic completeness I included them. All this info is actually useful for general trade as well.

Here is some production data (really has nothing to do with your own business I guess, I will probably split this post into another just dedicated to general economy and trade). The format is source and units, multiply by number of facilities (actually there is a little more to it than this, been looking over the scripts) and you can figure out total possible production:
Mill 20 bread
Grain per acre 1/125 grain
Brewery 35 ale
Fishing Fleet 4 smoked fish
Salt Pan 35 salt
Head of cattle 1/9 beef, 1/3 dried beef, 1/4 cheese, 1/20 butter, 1/6 hides
Head of sheep 1/12 hides, 1/15 sausage, 1/5 wool
Tanneries 20 leatherwork
Apiary 6 honey
Village 8 cabbage, 5 apples (so now we see the gardens and orchard are irrelevant)
Loom 5 wool cloth
Iron deposit 10 iron
Smithy 3 tools
Pottery Kiln 2 pottery
Vineyard per acre 1/100 grapes
Olive press 30 wine (I **** you not)
Olives per acre 1/150 olives
Olive press 12 oil
Linen loom 5 linen
Flax per acre 1/65 flax
Silk loom 5 velvet
Silk farm 1/20 raw silk
Dates per acre 1/120 dates
Fur trap 3 furs

So now we know why Suno produces so much wine, the olive presses are making wine and olive oil. The wine presses do nothing. I submitted bug reports for this as well as village looms and landlocked fishing fleet. Speaking to Nijis he seems to recall correcting this. Also now that I think about it, I have noticed that since 1.125 Suno does not produce very much wine anymore. It seems likely that it was fixed in the compiled version but not in the module system. So those who use the module system for their modding and have recompiled the scripts script you will need to correct that yourself until they update the module system. If not then it is corrected.

Also prosperity and price affects production on most finished goods.

Here is consumption. We have 3 classes besides our factory consumers; desert (Sarranid towns ONLY), rural (all villages), urban (all other towns)

Mill 20 grain
Brewery 5 grain
Smithy 3 iron
Wool loom 5 wool
Linen loom 5 flax
Tannery 20 hides
Wine press 20 grapes
Olive press 12 olives
Silk loom 1 dye, 5 silk
Fishing fleet 5 salt
Head of cattle 10 salt (for making dried beef)
Now we see that while the oil press produces the wine the wine press does actually consume the grapes.

Edit, and I found the rest of the consumers in script initialize_item_info of all places
Good Urban Rural Desert
Grain 20 20 20
Bread 30 30 30
Ale 10 15 0
Wine 15 10 25
Apples 4 4 0
Smoked Fish 16 16 16
Salt 5 3 -1
Dried Meat 15 15 15
Cheese 10 10 10
Butter 2 2 2
Leatherwork 10 10 10
Sausages 5 5 5
Wool Cloth 15 20 5
Linen 7 3 15
Tools 7 7 7
Pottery 5 5 5
Oil 10 5 -1
Velvet 5 0 -1
Dye 3 0 -1
Spice 5 0 5
Fur 5 0 -1
Honey 5 5 5
Cabbage 7 7 7
Date Fruit 7 7 7
I am not positive how -1 works. One would assume it means they actually produce a bit of it in the Sarranid towns then even without the production facilities.

So we can see from the above tables that everything (besides weapons, armor, horses duh) is produced and consumed. Some things are consumed everywhere but also produced everywhere in small amounts (pottery and honey for example) and that is why they can be hard to find and also are not considered useful for the player to trade
in.

This proves silk is a deadend because it is only produced and used near Jelkala (until you open your own dyeworks) but the price on silk never fluctuates much because the supply and demand are all in the same place. Consequently building a dyeworks in Jelkala is a loser but anywhere else a winner (unless you buy your own dye cheap and sell the velvet yourself, but you can forget about getting good deals on silk anywhere unless Veluca and the castles closest to Jelkala changed hands to another faction). So local competition is going to affect profitability of your enterprise.

Y'know, another thing that always struck me as odd, it's "All the silks of Veluca", not "All the silks of Jelkala" . Now if we produced silk around Veluca like the poem says and still produced the velvet in Jelkala then it becomes a viable tradegood.
 

Kellick

Sergeant
WB
monnikje said:
Interesting: Maybe I'll install the latest patch soon. This is worth checking out.

Oh, one thing of note, I am not sure if the option disappears when you are king. So if Floris doesn't get the option that would confirm it.
I have one game running, which I started during 1.12 beta and have several different "forks" off of.
The one where I am king I haven't seen the option. It was actually from an earlier version before I took the throne that I started playing again after 1.125 that I noticed it.

By the way, I made an ironworks in Dhirim, which I have stocked with iron (which was probably unecessary as it is a big iron producer) and I let it sell on its own. It nets me about 800 week on average, but lets take out 200 per week for iron that I bought myself...so still about 600 net. It isn't bad granted it cost me about 6k to build, so there is 10 weeks to recoup investment.

I am not sure about limits, it is 1 per town but you can setup in more than 1 town. It will be interesting to see if you can have 1 in every town, and also how the fortunes of war affect them.
 
What!? They implemented it? That was in the beta but ended up with the player having to alt-F4 out of the game. Sneaky devs. :razz:

Blimey, an ironworks in Curaw would be immense.
 

Phoss

Squire
Wow, that sounds awesome! I'll have to go check that out. I'm king too, so I'll test it. Haven't played in a few days, though. Just waiting for the plethora of patches to be all done with before I start back up :smile:
 

Kellick

Sergeant
WB
tyrannicide said:
Do you get the income automatically or do you have to go pick it up?

Auto. It shows up in your weekly budget.
I have not tried manually selling yet but I would assume then your budget entry would be in the red as the profit is directly off whatever you sell for.

Charlie Brooker said:
What!? They implemented it? That was in the beta but ended up with the player having to alt-F4 out of the game. Sneaky devs. :razz:

Blimey, an ironworks in Curaw would be immense.

Ok, it was then. I guess I never saw it before it went out and then back in. I remember it being mentioned.

It would and it wouldn't. Same as Dhirim. The raw materials price is going to be lowest but then so is the sell (as those are also the 2 best citys to buy tools). I guess it depends on how much interaction you want to have with the place. Velvet of course should be most profitable but the only place silk is produced is the villages around Jelkala (most of the towns have more or less the same facilities from show reports cheat; it is their villages that really define the local industry) I am trying to work up a good list and maybe will produce some kind of rudimentary guide.
 

tyrannicide

Knight
Kellick said:
tyrannicide said:
Do you get the income automatically or do you have to go pick it up?

Auto. It shows up in your weekly budget.
I have not tried manually selling yet but I would assume then your budget entry would be in the red as the profit is directly off whatever you sell for.

Neat. Thanks for sharing.
 

Hughes

Sergeant
Hell I'm going to open an oil press to make olive oil, what an invention! There's no olive oil anywhere in Calradia at the moment. Or a weavery to make "line" out of "flax", whatever those things are.
 

Kellick

Sergeant
WB
Hughes said:
Hell I'm going to open an oil press to make olive oil, what an invention! There's no olive oil anywhere in Calradia at the moment. Or a weavery to make "line" out of "flax", whatever those things are.

Suno is the biggest oil producer. Praven seems to be the biggest consumer. This is backed by play experience though not by the script engine (still checking that).
Linen is cloth made from flax fibers. Flax is a plant. The villages around Sargoth are the biggest flax producers. Probably TMI for you but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flax and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linen for anyone who cares. :wink:

DrowningFish said:
Do you have to own the city it's in? This sounds like a really cool feature and a good way to help support those armies

No, you do not have to own the city, although I believe you get a lower price on building, "Well, being as you own the town, I don't see anyone having a problem with you buying land" or something to that effect was said to me by the guildmaster in Dhirim (which I own). I have not tried going to other factions yet with that game. If you are unfactioned you can go to any town.

I am trying to put together an economic list for what would be the best for each location if you want to let them run by themselves vs if you are going to buy and/or sell for them (if you are going to do that I think we all know the usual buy and sell towns for traderoutes so you want to be close to each if possible)

initialize_economic_information seems to be the relevant script. I am reading through it right now. There are certain things common to every town. Then things set particular to a town. Villages are for the most part set by the town they trade at (although I don't know where each castles villages are set to go). Fishing fleets are set on a case by case basis. This is probably going to take a bit of time as there are 110 villages.
 

Velax

Squire
M&BWB
The option doesn't appear for me. Tried in my town of Narra (Reknown over 900 and a relationship of 10 with the town), but the Guild master doesn't mention it.
 

Kellick

Sergeant
WB
I added in the data for the towns themselves.
Obviously I need some help with formatting.

I also have a very annoying thing here with the forum that I had brought up but either noone else has this problem or I did not explain it well. Once the text I am typing fills more than the box to type in has the thing jumps all over the place very annoyingly. It makes it very hard to edit longer posts. I don't know if there is a forum preference setting I need to change or if it is IE8 or Win7 or what but it is driving me ******** insane so any help would be appreciated.

I will work on the data for the villages and then a guide maybe.

The villages are what makes things more complicated once game play starts because village being raided and villager partys and caravans killed will of course impact supply and demand.

Velax and Drowningfish, you did patch your game to 1.125 correct? Also what versions were your games started with and what tweaks/mods if any do y'all use?
I am finding a lot of the bugs people are complaining about are caused by these things. I find some inconsistencies in my own games as well, but I also muck about under the hood a lot.
 
My game was started in 1.125, no tweaks or anything, I'm gonna try what you did starting a noble and just giving him renown to see if that works.

Started a new character and it worked for him, both as a noble and as other stuff, so IDK why my first one can't do it, I'm pretty sure it was 1.125 that I started him in, unless using the import character function changed it somehow.
 

Velax

Squire
M&BWB
I started this character with version 1.113 of Warband, and updated to 1.124 and then 1.125. Not using any mods, and the only tweak is the one that lets me use my own equipment when caught sneaking into a hostile town.
 

Oldschool

Sergeant at Arms
Kellick said:
I also have a very annoying thing here with the forum that I had brought up but either noone else has this problem or I did not explain it well. Once the text I am typing fills more than the box to type in has the thing jumps all over the place very annoyingly. It makes it very hard to edit longer posts. I don't know if there is a forum preference setting I need to change or if it is IE8 or Win7 or what but it is driving me ******** insane so any help would be appreciated.

I had the same problem.  There is a hotspot at the bottom of the text box.  Mouse over it and you can resize the box until it shows all the text.  Voila!  Sanity restored.  :grin:
 

Kellick

Sergeant
WB
Oldschool said:
Kellick said:
I also have a very annoying thing here with the forum that I had brought up but either noone else has this problem or I did not explain it well. Once the text I am typing fills more than the box to type in has the thing jumps all over the place very annoyingly. It makes it very hard to edit longer posts. I don't know if there is a forum preference setting I need to change or if it is IE8 or Win7 or what but it is driving me ******** insane so any help would be appreciated.

I had the same problem.  There is a hotspot at the bottom of the text box.  Mouse over it and you can resize the box until it shows all the text.  Voila!  Sanity restored.  :grin:

THANK YOU!!!

DF and Velax. Might want to submit bug reports. I have run into the issue myself but like I said it is inconsistent.
 
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