[bug] Party skill gets penalty instead of bonus

[Rongar]

It seems char gets penalty, and instead +-value should be -value.
But what cause penalty?

 

[amade]

Whoa... I just noticed this as well. I've never bothered to check it in ages

I don't think it's a penalty, it's more likely a bug.

 

[Rongar]

I'm sorry for bumping this thread, but I found that it is actually penalty. It seems player can now only help in party skills, but almost can't lead in them.
I could post screenshots, but I hope you’ll believe me without them. I tested trading skill.

Player(0), linen cost 190
Player(1), in party screen player has 1(-1), linen costs 190
Player(2), in party screen player has 2(-1), linen costs 192
Player(3), in party screen player has 3(-2), linen costs 192
Player(4)  in party screen player has 4(-3), linen costs 192
Player(4)  and NPC(2) in party screen player has 4(-1), linen costs 195
Player(4)  and NPC(3) in party screen player has 4, linen costs 197
Player(4)  and NPC(4) in party screen player has 4(+1), linen costs 200
Player(4)  and NPC(5) in party screen NPC has 5(+1), linen costs 200
Player(4)  and NPC(6) in party screen NPC has 6(+1), linen costs 202


As I do remember the skill bonus system in M&B was aimed to spur player does not relay all skills to companions but develops party skills by himself/herself.
The current system makes developing party skills almost useless as well as staring for a noncombat character.  I think it can not be intentional, i.e.  it is a bug.

 

[amade]

Trading is a bit dodgy methinks, maybe we should try with some other party skill that's more easy to observe e.g. first aid skill.

To test, make sure you have full health, with a relatively high max HP (so changes would be more noticeable) and 0 FA skill (or 1 or 2) Go into battle and get yourself knocked out (make sure you have other troops with you so you don't lose). When you enter the next round press c and check your exact hp. End the battle by winning/leaving.

Then add more points into the FA skill. Wait for HP to go back to full (make sure you still have the same amount of max HP in both tests) then go into battle again and KO yourself. Start the next round and check how much HP were recovered with higher FA skill. If there is no change or the change doesn't correspond to your actual skill level then the negative is a penalty.


I'll be testing this too and report this in a while.

 

[amade]

Crap, can't test this in .633 since you can't get wounded! Your HP keeps resetting back to full. Gotta try testing with .632.

Or try testing some other skill... Tracking maybe.

Result:
I tested tracking skill.
Having 1 tracking skill with party bonus of +-1 = net skill of 0 - no tracks appeared.
Having 3 tracking skill with party bonus of +-2 = net skill of 1 - only then tracks will appear but only as the white no info tracks.
Having 6 tracking skill with party bonus of +-4 = net skill of 2 - tracks started to have colour to indicate time.

So it's confirmed, the (-) is giving the player penalty.
You should change the thread title in the original post to "[bug] Party skill gets penalty instead of bonus"

 

[Rongar]

>Trading is a bit dodgy methinks
ORLY? =) I think it is clearest skill. That's why I chose it.

I made some type of testing with wound treatment and surgery. It looked that without NPC that skills almost don’t work.

Engineering works normal. i.e. no penalty and no bonuses. But it was not true party skill in M&B. And nothing unusual that and now it works different from other party skills.


>You should change the thread title in the original post to "[bug] Party skill gets penalty instead of bonus"
Roger.

 

[Sir Bommel]

Crap, can't test this in .633 since you can't get wounded! Your HP keeps resetting back to full. Gotta try testing with .632.

Tried CTRL+F3?

 

[amade]

Well, dodgy as in a bit too dynamic to observe it's actual figures

Not that trading (not the skill) is bugged. At least, it doesn't appear to be so 

Crap, can't test this in .633 since you can't get wounded! Your HP keeps resetting back to full. Gotta try testing with .632.

Tried CTRL+F3?

You can KO yourself by normal means or by cheat, but you start the next round with full health. Same bug as troops not getting killed/wounded and battle never ends unless you leave/surrender/autocalc.

 

[Narduiran]

I don't know. Maybe it is working as intended? Maybe TaleWorlds want the party skills to be less effective when alone?

That in themselves they are called 'party' skills might be an indication that for them to become more effective, you need more than 1 character. For example, wound treatment and surgery might be less effective when you are alone providing it because you are too slow to save everyone whereas if there were two people tending to the wounded you would be more effective. Also, let's say you were roaming solo and got battered quite a bunch in a fight. In vanilla, with 10 surgery, you'd be on your feet in no time. But with this change here, you would not be able to tend to your own grave wounds yourself. But with another surgeon companion, you'd be fine. This seems like a sensible system to me.

What I'm wondering now is, with this change and the negative bonuses applied to the player, do they get lessened by more than one companion?

I'll have to hop in the game and try this out.

 

[amade]

I don't know. Maybe it is working as intended? Maybe TaleWorlds want the party skills to be less effective when alone?

I haven't tested this with a companion, but I'm betting that this isn't the case.

 

[Narduiran]

No, what I mean is if you are the only party member with points in the skill, not with companions in your group.

 

[amade]

Oh, I see. Well, your party member does not seem to get the penalty.

If I have 2 skills in tracking and Borcha has 3 the party window gives me a 3 (+1) without a negative in the bonus.
You could have a point.

Will test this further.

 

[amade]

Tested again:
Tracking
My skill 0, Borcha 3 = net skill 3 (skill listed on Borcha)
My skill 2, Borcha 3 = net skill 3+1
My skill 3, Borcha 3 = net skill 3+1 (skill is listed on me)
My skill 4, Borcha 3 = net skill 4
My skill 5, Borcha 3 = net skill 5
My skill 6, Borcha 3 = net skill 6+-1 = 5
My skill 7, Borcha 3 = net skill 7+-2 = 5
My skill 8, Borcha 3 = net skill 8+-2 = 6

My skill 8, Borcha 4 = net skill 8+-1 = 7 (skill is listed on me)
My skill 8, Borcha 5 = net skill 8
My skill 8, Borcha 6 = net skill 8+1
My skill 8, Borcha 7 = net skill 8+2
My skill 8, Borcha 8 = net skill 8+3

So... maybe you're right.
Could be a feature. Lets see what Nijis says about it.

 

[Narduiran]

Yeah, I was playing with this right now. The only thing I don't understand is why the NPCs don't get the penalty themselves. I understand that it forces the player to invest intelligence and charisma points in his companions, but then it defeats the logical reason (meaning a realistic reason, like I explained above) for this change, so I'm kinda puzzled.

I guess we'll need to wait and get an official answer on this.

 

[amade]

Yeah, I was playing with this right now. The only thing I don't understand is why the NPCs don't get the penalty themselves. I understand that it forces the player to invest intelligence and charisma points in his companions, but then it defeats the logical reason (meaning a realistic reason, like I explained above) for this change, so I'm kinda puzzled.

I guess we'll need to wait and get an official answer on this.

Best theory I could come up with is that these companions are now "experts" in party skills. So even if you invested a lot of points in yourself you won't be as good as they are.

The reasoning behind it is not to encourage using up INT and CHA for them but to encourage you to recruit companions who are experts at these skills. Some people go at it alone and spend points on themselves to become experts at everything or they use the companions as tanks instead of their "original" purpose. "Original" here being just my speculation.

As for what happens when more than one companions has a party skill, the game will only consider your own skill and the one with the higher skill as per 1.011.

 

[Narduiran]

As for what happens when more than one companions has a party skill, the game will only consider your own skill and the one with the higher skill as per 1.011.

Yeah, I found that out by myself earlier. I went on a tavern shopping spree and bought every companion to experiment.

 

[Rongar]

Some people go at it alone and spend points on themselves to become experts at everything or they use the companions as tanks instead of their "original" purpose.

Some companions (Frentis, Nizar, Matheld,Baheshtur) have no other "original" purposes, they are almost pure fighters. On the other hand it is impossible to be expert  at everything. You need about 25lvl developing only party skills to make the protagonist be at 5 at any of them. And she/he will be very weak at any personal and leader skills.

Maybe it is not import to develop skills too high. Something like 2-3 point at party skill may be considered like "expert". But it is absolutely other problem.

 

[amade]

Some people go at it alone and spend points on themselves to become experts at everything or they use the companions as tanks instead of their "original" purpose.

Some companions (Frentis, Nizar, Matheld,Baheshtur) have no other "original" purposes, they are almost pure fighters. On the other hand it is impossible to be expert  at everything. You need about 25lvl developing only party skills to make the protagonist be at 5 at any of them. And she/he will be very weak at any personal and leader skills.

Maybe it is not import to develop skills too high. Something like 2-3 point at party skill may be considered like "expert". But it is absolutely other problem.

I'm not sure I understood that. But if this is not a bug but a feature instead, I'm guessing that the player does not have to invest too much points into the party skills and should let the companions build it up instead. So the only reason the player would want to add points into the party skill is only to add some bonus to the skill the companions already have.

Firentis (along with Lezalit) are supposed to be trainers I think. But then Trainer skill isn't really a pure party skill either. So perhaps they're just suited to do whatever task related to their backstory even if it's not a party skill, but you don't necessarily have to go along that path. You can make Firentis a tracker if you want to, though it'd be easier if it was Borcha who takes the tracking job. And some companions like you say are pure fighters, so there's no reason why you must give them any party related skill either.

 

[Rongar]

I'm not sure I understood that.

Probably, I should not write that post. I don't feel there is any point of discussion.
It is evident that there are serve penalties on party skills.  And it is heavily different form the system that is in 1.011.
The only objective drawback that it is not transparent. I mean that player may invest points in skill but it gives almost nothing. Something should  inform us about such not evident things.

 

[amade]

I agree on that, party bonus skill was a bit confusing at first back in 1.011 and now it's even more confusing without the game explaining it in depth. Though I suppose it would be updated in the manual.