Brigand
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I do not see the point of this class. It doesnt fit at all. Remove it and create a second class of archer in my opinion.
This class is actually pretty nice now, you get the good axe that the Varyag has, and 7(I think?) javelins. Couple that with it's cost and you'll have guaranteed 3 spawns with it.
While I've made a thread about Sturgia being the worst faction in the game, I have a question to ask about this unit specifically: How overpowered would the Brigand be if he was allowed to double down on the throwing spear at the expense of not having a javelin quiver?
Nah, this class is the saving grace of Sturgia at the moment, 110g means its can be double spawned alongside a Varyag spawn at full gold, or almost always triple spawned(so long as you stay alive on your third life). Couple that with a good axe, the throwing spear and decent movement this class feels really great to play at the moment and should stay untouched.
1-4 will switch between weapon slots, although some UI that showed which weapon slot each weapon was in would be nice.
Thats trivia. I also mean because it's cumbersome to switch to the other side of the keyboard to reach the numpad. Maybe one could introduce a double scroll that lets you pick the third weapon immediately without a second animation.
Poor, poor Brigands. They're the Recruits of Sturgia.
They are admittedly much more usable with the recent shield buff and mobility improvements.
They suffered I think the most from scaling back of throwable ammo.
At this moment, all skirmishers basically have the same Javelin loadouts options except Aserai Skirmishers, who obviously have the best thrown damage potential in the game.
Brigands:
Damages:
Default 3 x 38 = 104 x 16 = 1664
Improved 3 x 55 = 155 = 2480
Extra 6 x 38 = 228 = 3648
Default 3 x 38 + T. Spear 105 = 205 = 3280
This compares pretty exactly with the Wildling, until you consider Troop Counts:
Default 3 x 40 = 120 x 18 = 2160
Stronger Javs 3 x 51 = 153 x 18 = 2754
Extra 6 x 40 = 240 x 18= 4320
Default + T. Spear = 225 x 18 = 4050
Its like this Recruits as well, and Aserai Skirmishers are just superior ranged units to all others. The problem being of course, the Wildling's other equipment.
Wildling: 22 Armor, 83 Move, 68 Cut and otherwise solid Sword or 71 Cut Axe which is pretty quick.
Brigand: 10 Armor, 83 Move, Can take Imp Armor to get 19 armor or can take a pretty nice axe at 94 damage.
This would make the Brigand a slightly more melee damage outputting Skirmishers, except the skirmisher has 16 troops, the lowest troop count of any Skirmisher.
I assume the design intent looked at just the overall damage output when balancing these guys, something like:
Brigs:
94 * 16 = 1504
Wildlings:
71 * 18 = 1278
Skirms:
68 * 19 = 1292
Recruit:
65 * 20 = 1280
If you look at just this very basic output, it seems like Brigands are doing well in melee. This of course doesn't account for envelopment, hit stuns, blocking, handling, weapon length, etc, and I'm not sure there's any way to do that mathematically. This doesn't really pan out in the Brigs favor in game.
Brigands have the lowest ranged damage potential of all skirmishers, tied with Recruit for lowest default armor, the lowest troop count, and decent to good melee damage. This still doesn't stack up against the other Skirmishers however, Wildling is a better melee unit and better harassment unit, Skirmisher is a far better ranged unit and can beat them in melee with Kaskaras, and Brigands still stand no chance against Recruits due to troop count disparity.
The only thing the Brigand has going for it is the melee damage potential of their "Better Axe", but this is less important in Captain than in Skirmish, since their paper-thin armor means they often die before using it.
If the concept for them is going to remain a high-damage Melee skirmisher, it seems like they either need a Troop Count buff, or a buff to their armor values all around, as they don't live long enough to really take advantage of their pretty decent melee abilities.
As an alternative, if we want to shore up the concept of Brigands as a Anti-Lightt Infantry skirmisher, we could swap the boring Better Javelins perk with a stack 3 x Better Northern Throwing Axes (Same stats as Southern Throwing Axe).
This shortens their range a bit, but increases damage potential against lightly armored targets to 55 per hit, 165 damage per salvo, and hoping we'll get a chance to pick them up. This would give brigands something interesting to do instead of just being a slightly worse Wildling
.
If we want to get really crazy, and lean into their identity as Criminals and thieves, and give them a stack of throwing knives.
They are admittedly much more usable with the recent shield buff and mobility improvements.
They suffered I think the most from scaling back of throwable ammo.
At this moment, all skirmishers basically have the same Javelin loadouts options except Aserai Skirmishers, who obviously have the best thrown damage potential in the game.
Brigands:
Damages:
Default 3 x 38 = 104 x 16 = 1664
Improved 3 x 55 = 155 = 2480
Extra 6 x 38 = 228 = 3648
Default 3 x 38 + T. Spear 105 = 205 = 3280
This compares pretty exactly with the Wildling, until you consider Troop Counts:
Default 3 x 40 = 120 x 18 = 2160
Stronger Javs 3 x 51 = 153 x 18 = 2754
Extra 6 x 40 = 240 x 18= 4320
Default + T. Spear = 225 x 18 = 4050
Its like this Recruits as well, and Aserai Skirmishers are just superior ranged units to all others. The problem being of course, the Wildling's other equipment.
Wildling: 22 Armor, 83 Move, 68 Cut and otherwise solid Sword or 71 Cut Axe which is pretty quick.
Brigand: 10 Armor, 83 Move, Can take Imp Armor to get 19 armor or can take a pretty nice axe at 94 damage.
This would make the Brigand a slightly more melee damage outputting Skirmishers, except the skirmisher has 16 troops, the lowest troop count of any Skirmisher.
I assume the design intent looked at just the overall damage output when balancing these guys, something like:
Brigs:
94 * 16 = 1504
Wildlings:
71 * 18 = 1278
Skirms:
68 * 19 = 1292
Recruit:
65 * 20 = 1280
If you look at just this very basic output, it seems like Brigands are doing well in melee. This of course doesn't account for envelopment, hit stuns, blocking, handling, weapon length, etc, and I'm not sure there's any way to do that mathematically. This doesn't really pan out in the Brigs favor in game.
Brigands have the lowest ranged damage potential of all skirmishers, tied with Recruit for lowest default armor, the lowest troop count, and decent to good melee damage. This still doesn't stack up against the other Skirmishers however, Wildling is a better melee unit and better harassment unit, Skirmisher is a far better ranged unit and can beat them in melee with Kaskaras, and Brigands still stand no chance against Recruits due to troop count disparity.
The only thing the Brigand has going for it is the melee damage potential of their "Better Axe", but this is less important in Captain than in Skirmish, since their paper-thin armor means they often die before using it.
If the concept for them is going to remain a high-damage Melee skirmisher, it seems like they either need a Troop Count buff, or a buff to their armor values all around, as they don't live long enough to really take advantage of their pretty decent melee abilities.
As an alternative, if we want to shore up the concept of Brigands as a Anti-Lightt Infantry skirmisher, we could swap the boring Better Javelins perk with a stack 3 x Better Northern Throwing Axes (Same stats as Southern Throwing Axe).
This shortens their range a bit, but increases damage potential against lightly armored targets to 55 per hit, 165 damage per salvo, and hoping we'll get a chance to pick them up. This would give brigands something interesting to do instead of just being a slightly worse Wildling
.
If we want to get really crazy, and lean into their identity as Criminals and thieves, and give them a stack of throwing knives.
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Read the above post and I feel like throwing axes on the Brigand would be tricky to balance. I think it'd really only be worth it if they dealth at least as much damage as the Pugio in melee and also came in a stack of 4 instead of three. (4 because the last axe could be used as a serviceable melee weapon against most peasant units)
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It'd be tricky, can't argue, would love to see higher stack count and general improvement on throwing axe melee use. It would make them interesting and more distinctly "Sturgian", and puts some throwing axes back in the game. It'd be interesting to help Brigands to fill an anti light infantry & anti-shock role/close support role, which I think it what is intended with their low armor, low troop count, and high melee damage.
To append to the idea of giving Throwing Axes to the Brigand, would this be a welcome idea?
Northern Heavy Axe
Now a default weapon for the Brigand
Balanced Northern Throwing Axe
Length: 50
Damage (Thrown): 50 cut (Stronger against unarmored enemies than the Fish Harpoon, weaker against armor though)
Damage (Swung): 42 cut (Slightly weaker than the Pugio)
Stack Size: 4 (7 w/ Extra Javelins perk)
All other stats identical to Berserker's Throwing Axes
Masterwork Northern Throwing Axe
Length: 53
Damage (Thrown): 68
Damage (Swung): 47
Stack Size: 4
All other stats identical to Berserker's Throwing Axes
New Perk 1
Throwing Axes (Replaces both your Northern Fish Harpoon and Northern Heavy Axe with throwing axes. Combine this perk with Better Javelins to get the Masterwork variant)
Northern Heavy Axe
Now a default weapon for the Brigand
Balanced Northern Throwing Axe
Length: 50
Damage (Thrown): 50 cut (Stronger against unarmored enemies than the Fish Harpoon, weaker against armor though)
Damage (Swung): 42 cut (Slightly weaker than the Pugio)
Stack Size: 4 (7 w/ Extra Javelins perk)
All other stats identical to Berserker's Throwing Axes
Masterwork Northern Throwing Axe
Length: 53
Damage (Thrown): 68
Damage (Swung): 47
Stack Size: 4
All other stats identical to Berserker's Throwing Axes
New Perk 1
Throwing Axes (Replaces both your Northern Fish Harpoon and Northern Heavy Axe with throwing axes. Combine this perk with Better Javelins to get the Masterwork variant)
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That's a good way to balance it.
The concept of having them reliant on the Throwing axes for melee if you choose the Throwing Axe perks is clever and could provide some interesting texture to playing them. I certainly agree that all throwing axes in game need a slight melee buff.
Conceptually I really enjoy them having the option of two different categories of missile weapon like this. Javelins I believe also have slightly superior range, so it would be an interesting decision to make. You'd have to balance enemy team composition and map size. The ability to restock ammo from enemy axe/javelin throwers is another consideration that adds interest.
Also in the stats above, I failed to account for the fact that only the Captain gets the Northern Fish Harpoon as the default javelin in Captain mode, your troops get the standard Light Javelin. This slightly reduces the overall ranged damage output for brigands a bit further.
well about your throwing axes guys, i never liked that they were brought up as some form off "javelins but for short range" before the nerf which made them super-secondary
I would rather like being them somewhat effective and powerfull in closer ranges, but useless on >10 meters range because of lesser max aim, worse ballistics and huge damage drop-off
However i would lilke to see them having faster unsneath/aim speed, to make them more effective as a close-range weapon
Also i always laughed about any >2 stack of throwing axes here, its very unrealistic and out-of-a-purpose ammount of this weapon, i mean, i dont think there was ANY unit irl who would specialise in carrying a big bag of throwing axes and throw them at enemy the whole fight, its just ridicolous, thats some warhammer/warcraft jack****
And this weapon should stick noone but shock infantry, which appeals to their melee range skirmish-flanking gimmick
I would rather like being them somewhat effective and powerfull in closer ranges, but useless on >10 meters range because of lesser max aim, worse ballistics and huge damage drop-off
However i would lilke to see them having faster unsneath/aim speed, to make them more effective as a close-range weapon
Also i always laughed about any >2 stack of throwing axes here, its very unrealistic and out-of-a-purpose ammount of this weapon, i mean, i dont think there was ANY unit irl who would specialise in carrying a big bag of throwing axes and throw them at enemy the whole fight, its just ridicolous, thats some warhammer/warcraft jack****
And this weapon should stick noone but shock infantry, which appeals to their melee range skirmish-flanking gimmick
I think my suggestion for throwing axes has aged well, considering that TaleWorlds has mentioned plans on making the Ash Throwing Spear replace the javelin quiver. Seeing that Brigand still more or less carries Sturgia, I wonder if it'd be worth it for them to make the Throwing Spear perk also include the Northern Throwing Axe so as to still deal a decent amount of torso damage vs. peasants and shock troops while keeping the throwing spear's anti-cav utility in melee.
Double-posting on this thread because Throwing Axes have replaced the fish harpoon which is... actually kind of a bad idea right now.
Can we give the six javelin quiver to the Marauder perk with the damage that throwing axes currently deal?
Opponent was a Vlandian Peasant Leavy with Improved Armor, by the way (which is actually less armor than most shock troops WITHOUT the armor perks).
Also, with the nerfs that have hit the Brigand as of right now, I wonder if throwing axes could be moved to Big Game Hunter, so as to pair the throwing spear with what's essentially "throwing rock plus".
EDIT: Actually, can we get the old weapons back (Raider Axe/Heavy Raider Axe)? Cuz it seems to me that TaleWorlds is insistent about giving the low-cost Sturgian troops the downside of "Ragequit if you die as this unit"
Can we give the six javelin quiver to the Marauder perk with the damage that throwing axes currently deal?
Opponent was a Vlandian Peasant Leavy with Improved Armor, by the way (which is actually less armor than most shock troops WITHOUT the armor perks).
Also, with the nerfs that have hit the Brigand as of right now, I wonder if throwing axes could be moved to Big Game Hunter, so as to pair the throwing spear with what's essentially "throwing rock plus".
EDIT: Actually, can we get the old weapons back (Raider Axe/Heavy Raider Axe)? Cuz it seems to me that TaleWorlds is insistent about giving the low-cost Sturgian troops the downside of "Ragequit if you die as this unit"
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Good job on the throwing axe buffs, though I feel like the melee weapons could take a good looking at since the Brigand still has the downside of "Ragequit if you die as this unit", and TaleWorlds seems insistent on keeping that particular downside attached to Sturgia's light infantry.
