Breaking block

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Just a thought - blocking a powerful blow with a heavy weapon could lead to breaking the block - the defender would not simply be strong enough to hold against the blow and he would only slow the attacking weapon down, suffering partial damage.

This would apply only for swings, because when blocking a thrust, you actually don't stop the force of the blow, but push the weapon aside, allowing the tip to travel past your body.

The relative weights of the weapons would have to be considered (it's much easier to block a two-handed sword with another two-handed sword than with a shortsword). Also, relative strengths of the opponents would have to be measured. It would be possible that a very weak person could not block much stronger opponent at all, which is IMO realistic (peasant women).
 
Yeah I have found it funny that river pirates block my 13lbs(?) weighting maul(or warhammer) when I swing it overhead and they hold their tiny clubs to block the blow.
 
However, some way of dodging the blows should be provided then, because that would be the only chance for a weaker, yet faster opponent. The attacker should also be open for counterattack for some time after a successful dodge.
 
shields should require a certain level of strength to use and so should the armors. And also maybe during a block maybe the strength of the attacker and the strength of the blocker could be compared to get a result of succesfull blocking. But all these would probably slow down the battle screens.
 
ilex said:
Yeah I have found it funny that river pirates block my 13lbs(?) weighting maul(or warhammer) when I swing it overhead and they hold their tiny clubs to block the blow.
It is amusing :smile: I justify those cases by a rationalization that since we are not yet able to easily portray the full range of motions like dodging, weaving, crouching, etc. that a lightly armed warrior would have at his disposal, it's a convenient abstraction, the pirate "blocks" the strike. Works for me.
 
ilex said:
Yeah I have found it funny that river pirates block my 13lbs(?) weighting maul(or warhammer) when I swing it overhead and they hold their tiny clubs to block the blow.

Indeed. There should be somekind of % chance that your heavy maul just brakes the targets block and maybe he could suffer only like 50% of the damage? It would make game more realistic and 2handed weapons as poweful as useful as they really are.

About dodging. If your character has enough points in athlectics he can dodge attack just by walking away from the enemy and then walk back quickly and make a strike.
 
Well IRL I don't think that one had a very big chance of surviving an enemy wielding a long effective 2 handed weapon (say greatsowrd) with a small weapon like club or knife without shield. Or so I think. Go on break my assumption, no offence is taken.
 
A parry is done mainly by redirecting the attacking weapon, not just stopping it with more brute force. You might not be able to stop a sledgehammer with a longsword, but you could easily parry it and make it miss.
 
What you talk about, Pope, is a very advanced form of block (there is even a block called "flying block", where the defender dodges the blade and strikes it to accelerate it, in order to make the attacker open for counter attack). When you do this type of block, you must actually let the weapon to trave relatively unfindered in its path - either by dodging, or by slightly modifying its path so that it misses your body.

However, the basic block of gothic swordplay (the one we see in the game) is done by meeting the attack with ortogonally positioned weapon. This way, you actually stop the attacking weapon, and therefore you have to absorb the full force of the blow (the attacking weapon is completely stopped by the defender). Once again, this is nearly impossible to do with a small hatchet against a two handed sword.

The racionalization "I see my character blocking, but in fact, he is dodging" is unacceptable for me.

Dodging is also not walking back and forth to avoid the attack (even if this is a very fundamental principle of fencing - you should always step back when defending and always lunge or step forward when attacking).

Dodge is a form of defense when the defender maintains the distance from the attacker, but manages to avoid the attack without slowing or stopping the attacking weapon.

Block gives the defender better control of the situation and is less risky, but stops the attacking weapon, allowing the attacker to chain another attack, while dodging is much more risky, but in case of a success, the attacker must wrestle with the weapon that missed, and usually is more open for counter-attack.

This imposes different tactical approaches on the combatants - fast and light attacks are better parried, while slow and powerful attacks are better dodged.

However, these are only some thoughts that can inspire at best, I understand that in some aspects, the game is sometimes better kept simple (even if only for the AI to better cope with it). I also understand that the developer has his own good conception, otherwise the game would not be so marvelous already.
 
I agree that introducing random elements is a bad thing (% chance that the block is broken). However, breaking a block could mean that the defender is not wounded, but merely shaken - unable to attack and/or defend for a short time, forced to step back.

Blocking powerful blows is more difficult, and therefore wielders of powerful, yet slow weapons should benefit from this advantage in the game.
 
how about a knock down without damage when someone blocks.

I can see how that would happen.

Say on a critical hit.... Your highest 5% on your attack roll if it's blocked it results in a knock down.

Not sure if that happens already, but I know you get knocked down a lot on foot when your attacked by a horse.

Make it a 1 in 20 chance or something, or you could base it on your power strike. 3% knock down on a block per point in power strike.

Someone with a power strike of 5 would surely knock someone down now and then when a hard blow is blocked.

It adds the benefit of you being able to size someone up as they pick themselves off the ground...

Another thing, is no matter what, when you get nailed in the head with an arrow you should get knocked down if your not dead. No body can take a arrow to the head and keep running.
 
:smile: It would probably be a good thing if the A.I. were capable of coordinating the combatants in such a way as to make use of Kamamura's description of dodging and blocking.

Are the graphics and AI realistically capable of such subtle and quick finesses as a sudden head tuck to avoid a swinging mace or a warrior's twisting his body to the side as a sword thrust passes by? While simultaneously accounting for the combatant's footwork and stance? If so, incorporate them into the game.

I have my doubts that at this point such additions could be anything more than as Kanamura suggests inspirational ideas.


Kanamura said:
The racionalization "I see my character blocking, but in fact, he is dodging" is unacceptable for me.
:smile: Yet, if you are playing M&B, then you are in fact accepting it. If it were unacceptable, you'd have stopped playing.

It's easy for us who love M&B to point out the odd things in it - the arrow to the head wound that doesn't stop the recipient("It's OK, guys, I can still see outa the other eye!") , the spear in the chest ("I'm alright, just got the wind knocked out of me"), the absence of fatigue (no one ever gets tired and horses can run and run and run), and the lack of combat morale (those bandits will fight to the death and even demand money when outnumbered 10 to 1).

However, as Kanamura points out, the developer has his own good conception and it's been marvelous so far.

Good thread. Made me stop and consider dodging, blocking and the manly art of self defense.
 
The Pope said:
You might not be able to stop a sledgehammer with a longsword, but you could easily parry it and make it miss.
Indeed? I doubt it. Remember, sledgehammers are heavy. Even deflecting one substantially would put a lot of strain on the parrying weapon. Swords, remember, are inherently thin, so that they can be sharp—good swords will bend a great deal before breaking, but nevertheless, you run a high risk of damaging your weapon. And it would hardly be "easy" in any case.
Kamamura said:
However, the basic block of gothic swordplay (the one we see in the game) is done by meeting the attack with ortogonally positioned weapon. This way, you actually stop the attacking weapon, and therefore you have to absorb the full force of the blow (the attacking weapon is completely stopped by the defender).
Hmm. Won't this nick both weapons horribly?
JohnathanStrange said:
Are the graphics and AI realistically capable of such subtle and quick finesses as a sudden head tuck to avoid a swinging mace or a warrior's twisting his body to the side as a sword thrust passes by?
Graphics would be easy. The coding would be the tricky part. I think it would be an excellent idea, at least for M&B2.

-Simetrical
 
fleshtonegolem said:
Another thing, is no matter what, when you get nailed in the head with an arrow you should get knocked down if your not dead. No body can take a arrow to the head and keep running.

They can if it bounces off their helmet.

simetrical said:
Indeed? I doubt it. Remember, sledgehammers are heavy. Even deflecting one substantially would put a lot of strain on the parrying weapon. Swords, remember, are inherently thin, so that they can be sharp—good swords will bend a great deal before breaking, but nevertheless, you run a high risk of damaging your weapon. And it would hardly be "easy" in any case.

The whole point is that you're not opposing the force of the blow. For an overhead smash, you hit it from the side with the flat of your blade and push it. It would keep going down at almost the same speed, but it wouldn't hit you.
 
The Pope said:
The whole point is that you're not opposing the force of the blow. For an overhead smash, you hit it from the side with the flat of your blade and push it. It would keep going down at almost the same speed, but it wouldn't hit you.
Right, but changing an object's direction also requires you to "oppose the force of the blow." The resultant force of two different forces acting on the same object is Fr² = Fa² + Fb² + 2 Fa Fb cos θ. If a sledgehammer is coming down with 100 pounds of force and you want to deflect it 10° without adding or removing from its force, you have 10,000 = 10,000 + Fb² + 200 Fb cos 10°, or Fb² = -196.96 Fb, or Fb = -196.96 lbs. of force. Which is completely ridiculous, so I've probably screwed up somewhere. Anyway, my point was that the force exerted is still going to be substantial.

-Simetrical
 
My main point is that you aren't trying to completely stop the sledgehammer. Sure, it would take a fair bit of skill/strength do defend against one, but the same can be said of most of the games' weapons. Pushing it out of the way with a parry is far more likely than it just smashing through, as once the swing is started the attacker has very little control over the head.
 
Yes, Pope, we get your point. But the block we see in the game (and the one that is basic in this style of swordplay) completely stops the weapon, right? So you must have the strength to do it. The block you are talking about is for special situations, and cannot be relied upon every time.

Also, you are not correct stating that once swing starts, the attacker has very little control over the weapon. If it was so, the fights would be very quick - just one dodge and it's over. An adept swordsman must be able to stop the weapon in the end - "overswings" are a sign of poor technique and invite counterattacks.

On the opposite, true duel would be full of feinted attacks, subtle combinations and tricks. In a swordfight, you can even use dynamic elements - you start with a weak cut, provoking the opponent to overreact with too wide and strong parry, and immediately chain a strong, decisive attack from the other direction. Its never "I let the swing go and hope for the best". A good swordsman has a lot of control over his weapon all the time - if the cut cannot be completely stopped, it can be transformed into block, with the help of correct footwork.
 
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