Bracing spears

[lolbash]

Notice how the opponent crashes against the PC's spear without the PC having initiated any attack. (source video provided by 578.)

隐藏: Normal Speed

隐藏: Slowmo

Pay more attention. The Player did initiate an attack, but in Bannerlord they changed the animation so that they pull back the spear a bit before jabbing, in contrast to the warband attacks where the player does not pull back the spear. The enemy just happened to run into the spear while it was being pulled back.  This is not evidence of spear bracing.

 

[Harmi]

Notice how the opponent crashes against the PC's spear without the PC having initiated any attack. (source video provided by 578.)

隐藏: Normal Speed

隐藏: Slowmo

Pay more attention. The Player did initiate an attack, but in Bannerlord they changed the animation so that they pull back the spear a bit before jabbing, in contrast to the warband attacks where the player does not pull back the spear. The enemy just happened to run into the spear while it was being pulled back.  This is not evidence of spear bracing.

Where is this video from? I've not seen it before.

 

[Roccoflipside]

Notice how the opponent crashes against the PC's spear without the PC having initiated any attack. (source video provided by 578.)

隐藏: Normal Speed

隐藏: Slowmo

Pay more attention. The Player did initiate an attack, but in Bannerlord they changed the animation so that they pull back the spear a bit before jabbing, in contrast to the warband attacks where the player does not pull back the spear. The enemy just happened to run into the spear while it was being pulled back.  This is not evidence of spear bracing.

That would imply, however, that readying an attack allows it to still deal damage. The player clicks and holds the attack button, the enemy hits the spear head, and then the player releases the attack and the spear comes forward (at least that's how I see it). Given that, it seems that clicking and holding the attack button would allow the spear to do damage (entirely dependent on the speed of the characters involved), or at least cause a stun if an enemy walks into the point.

 

[FBohler]

I wondered why they didn't include spear bracing since the very first time I played the original M&B. I actually tried very hard to make it happen by holding LMB while being trampled by enemy horses 

I think cavalvy is way too OP and should be easily countered by a line of braced spears.


On the historical side of the discussion, you may be aware of my opinion, which is:

We don't need a game so deeply concerned with reality. (sorry if I hurt someone's feelings with my humble opinion, I swear it's just an opinion on a video game that's not even out yet!)

 

[Roccoflipside]

I wondered why they didn't include spear bracing since the very first time I played the original M&B. I actually tried very hard to make it happen by holding LMB while being trampled by enemy horses 

I think cavalvy is way too OP and should be easily countered by a line of braced spears.


On the historical side of the discussion, you may be aware of my opinion, which is:

We don't need a game so deeply concerned with reality. (sorry if I hurt someone's feelings with my humble opinion, I swear it's just an opinion on a video game that's not even out yet!)

This is a landmark moment in the forum history. While not openly admitting it, FBohler agrees that realism and gameplay can coexist. Let us all rejoice in the union of these two warring factions and pray that the hatchet buried here shall never be taken to war again.

In other words, I agree with you.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

We don't need a game so deeply concerned with reality. (sorry if I hurt someone's feelings with my humble opinion, I swear it's just an opinion on a video game that's not even out yet!)

Nobody is having their feelings hurt by you expressing an opinion. What does get annoying though is when you feel the need to put an exaggerated, nuance-less version of that opinion in every single post you make for the past 3 months.

Some people want bannerlord's existing mechanics to be more believable, and evidently so do you. Having mechanics you can generally predict the outcomes of without having to consult a manual is good game design. Having mechanics that make you think "why is this not in the game/why can't I do this?" is not. In this case consulting history is a good way to find out what a real solution would be for these ingame problems (i.e. cavalry overpowered)

 

[Count Delinard]

Also, continuously snapping at Orion (I’ve seen it in two posts already) counts as flaming and you know what happens when you do that. Please focus on discussing the matter at hand / contributing and avoid those petty additions that’ll only get you muted.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Pay more attention. The Player did initiate an attack, but in Bannerlord they changed the animation so that they pull back the spear a bit before jabbing, in contrast to the warband attacks where the player does not pull back the spear. The enemy just happened to run into the spear while it was being pulled back.  This is not evidence of spear bracing.

It is said that a picture is worth a thousand words...
In warband we have that when enduring an attack (simulated bracing spear) the spear has a ghost effect...it passes through the enemy.

In the gif that I shared the pc is holding the attack and surprisingly there is no ghost effect of the spear this time.
If added to this, we have a "push back" ability...don't kid maybe the spears if they work as they should.

+

As your partners JuanNieve and Roccoflipside told you so well, maybe you should be the one to pay more attention  (comment no offense intended).

@Harmi,

隐藏: this is the video

 

[Harmi]

That picture really is very important. I've been thinking so much how the spear mechanics work, cause it works in so bizarre ways in warband. You can SEE how the spear goes through somene and they don't get killed and then you can also see how they are missing with the spear, bet yet still you get killed.

But I think it's the problem with the physics calculation steps. In older games you had to have much less calculation steps for physics cause old pc:s were not able to hold very accurate physics simulations in real time. In new games you can add more steps and have more accurate end results.
That also is the reason why Warband is changing all projectiles to be gigantic when they are flying. Small objects can sometimes fly through you just between the physics steps without being registered if there istoo few steps/second and the object is too fast. The best way (imo) of course is to parent the bullet to something like 3 meters long invisible box and use that to be the physics object instead when the projectile itself is there just for show. The big object is easy to be registered for the physics simulation. For some reason Armagan wanted to make the arrows and throw axes themselves to be the physics objects and that's why he ended up scaling them when they're in air.

 

[John_M]

Notice how the opponent crashes against the PC's spear without the PC having initiated any attack. (source video provided by 578.)

隐藏: Normal Speed

隐藏: Slowmo

Pay more attention. The Player did initiate an attack, but in Bannerlord they changed the animation so that they pull back the spear a bit before jabbing, in contrast to the warband attacks where the player does not pull back the spear. The enemy just happened to run into the spear while it was being pulled back.  This is not evidence of spear bracing.

That would imply, however, that readying an attack allows it to still deal damage. The player clicks and holds the attack button, the enemy hits the spear head, and then the player releases the attack and the spear comes forward (at least that's how I see it). Given that, it seems that clicking and holding the attack button would allow the spear to do damage (entirely dependent on the speed of the characters involved), or at least cause a stun if an enemy walks into the point.

In the gif that I shared the pc is holding the attack and surprisingly there is no ghost effect of the spear this time.

Lolbash is right here. This is not evidence for spear bracing. The enemy was not damaged while the player was holding the attack. The bot received damage after the player released the attack. Note how the arm animation changed, his arm goes straight. It seems in Bannerlord spear thrust attack animations start with the character pulling the spear back before pushing it forward.
As far as we know there is still spear "ghosting" while you hold an attack.

 

[Noudelle]

Lolbash is right here. This is not evidence for spear bracing. The enemy was not damaged while the player was holding the attack. The bot received damage after the player released the attack. Note how the arm animation changed, his arm goes straight. It seems in Bannerlord spear thrust attack animations start with the character pulling the spear back before pushing it forward.

I'm not sure I like that honestly.

As far as we know there is still spear "ghosting" while you hold an attack.

That does indeed still seem to be the case.

 

[FBohler]

What does get annoying though is when you feel the need to put an exaggerated, nuance-less version of that opinion in every single post you make for the past 3 months.

Let me put it very, very simple for you:

Someone make a post asking for different design or gameplay based on historical accuracy, medieval Europe, real gear, etc. their only argument supporting their idea is something like "the way I propose is more realistic, therefore more immersive, than the current presentation"

I call fallacy on them, because more realism doesn't necessarily mean better game or better immersion.

I often use the "reductio ad absurdum" to try to convey my opinion, this may be frustrating for some people, but facts don't care about feelings.

This is a landmark moment in the forum history. While not openly admitting it, FBohler agrees that realism and gameplay can coexist. Let us all rejoice in the union of these two warring factions and pray that the hatchet buried here shall never be taken to war again.

I never asked for lightsabers or combat helicopters 

Realism is a part of the setting of the game for sure, my whole point is "Bannerlord has the RIGHT AMOUNT OF REALISM in it right now, no need to make perfect trees or ditch the silly pieces of armor!"

 

[John_M]

I often use the "strawman" to try to convey my opinion, this may be frustrating for some people, but facts don't care about feelings.

Someone saying "the way I propose is more realistic, therefore more immersive, than the current presentation" isn't a fallacy, its an opinion.
You're right, more realism doesn't necessarily mean better game mechanics or better immersion. But they believe it does make it more immersive, so they comment to share their opinion, the whole point of the forum.

 

[King Yngvar]

隐藏

Pay more attention. The Player did initiate an attack, but in Bannerlord they changed the animation so that they pull back the spear a bit before jabbing, in contrast to the warband attacks where the player does not pull back the spear. The enemy just happened to run into the spear while it was being pulled back.  This is not evidence of spear bracing.

It is said that a picture is worth a thousand words...
In warband we have that when enduring an attack (simulated bracing spear) the spear has a ghost effect...it passes through the enemy.

In the gif that I shared the pc is holding the attack and surprisingly there is no ghost effect of the spear this time.
If added to this, we have a "push back" ability...don't kid maybe the spears if they work as they should.

+

As your partners JuanNieve and Roccoflipside told you so well, maybe you should be the one to pay more attention  (comment no offense intended).

@Harmi,

隐藏: this is the video

I really hope it works like that for spears used on foot as well. Same goes for shields, that they protect the area they are at and don't become ghosts just because the player isn't right clicking. Getting tired of stabbing through hologram shields just as much as I'm getting tired of hologram spears that only become physical objects when you release the left mouse button.

 

[Harmi]

隐藏

Pay more attention. The Player did initiate an attack, but in Bannerlord they changed the animation so that they pull back the spear a bit before jabbing, in contrast to the warband attacks where the player does not pull back the spear. The enemy just happened to run into the spear while it was being pulled back.  This is not evidence of spear bracing.

It is said that a picture is worth a thousand words...
In warband we have that when enduring an attack (simulated bracing spear) the spear has a ghost effect...it passes through the enemy.

In the gif that I shared the pc is holding the attack and surprisingly there is no ghost effect of the spear this time.
If added to this, we have a "push back" ability...don't kid maybe the spears if they work as they should.

+

As your partners JuanNieve and Roccoflipside told you so well, maybe you should be the one to pay more attention  (comment no offense intended).

@Harmi,

隐藏: this is the video

I really hope it works like that for spears used on foot as well. Same goes for shields, that they protect the area they are at and don't become ghosts just because the player isn't right clicking. Getting tired of stabbing through hologram shields just as much as I'm getting tired of hologram spears that only become physical objects when you release the left mouse button.

That is not going to happen. It would make the game completely different and they would need to reduce the max amount of agents and basically so much important things would need to be done again.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Someone make a post asking for different design or gameplay based on historical accuracy, medieval Europe, real gear, etc. their only argument supporting their idea is something like "the way I propose is more realistic, therefore more immersive, than the current presentation"

I call fallacy on them, because more realism doesn't necessarily mean better game or better immersion.

A fallacy is a fundamental logical contradiction, not just an opinion you think is silly. Some people think more realism does generally mean better gameplay, doesn't mean their argument is fallacious, and it definitely doesn't mean you can just discard their argument outright based on this alone.

I often use the "reductio ad absurdum" to try to convey my opinion, this may be frustrating for some people, but facts don't care about feelings.

You're talking about Appeal to Extremes which is a horrible way to argue. It's a favorite of Ben Shapiro and other status quo apologists. When you properly examine an appeal to extremes it just amounts to attacking an opinion or position which doesn't actually exist anywhere.
Reductio Ad Absurdism only makes sense when you apply it to specific falsifiable claims, and in almost all cases it's used in the negative to reinforce a positive claim with an absurd contradictory one. For example:

Claim: Light can travel instantly.
Reduction ad Absurdum: Light must take time to travel, otherwise we would be able to see the entire universe in its current state just by looking into the sky.

Claim: If everybody lived like exactly like Jesus then the world would be a better place.
Reduction ad Absurdum: Jesus died aged 33 and worked as a carpenter. If everyone did this we would all starve. (The original claim obviously isn't supposed to be taken this far, but by using RaA you can whittle the claim down to what it actually means by pointing out the semantic inconsistency)

Claim: More realism would make bannerlord a better game.
Reductio ad FBohler: Actually I just disagree

The varying degrees of realism, believability, game design, game pacing and historicity are part of a broad discussion about the game and are not directly falsifiable. The way you post about game realism makes it out to be a simple, disprovable claim when it's much more nuanced and varied than that.

Also,

Let me put it very, very simple for you:

There is no reason for this tone. If you were confident in your arguments you wouldn't feel the need to condescend people whenever you get the chance.

 

[whereisthedevblog]

Its annoying to hold down the spear and see the horse pass through it even if the spear is touching the horse so +1 please add this in the game.

 

[Dr.Zeus]

  +1. Any mechanic by which horses stop passing harmlessly through spear-points is a must for me to get full enjoyment. Please by whatever means is shortest to implement something like a spear brace mechanic. If it were like the couched lance mechanic that would be fantastic, and like the couched lance just have it trigger off speed, except in this case it is 0 speed that triggers the spear brace. Or just make all weapons objects even when they are pulled back.

+1 to the spear breakage, or dropped, mechanic poll also, cause that would immediately become necessary.

As for it's need, I play a fair amount more Mount and Blade: Warband than I even have time for and the pure supremacy of charging cavalry is second only in how much it bothers me to the low units on field count.

 

[hruza]

I too think that bracing mechanic is not necessary given there is already polearm attack/horse stopping mechanic in the game that seems sufficient.

Problem is not lack of spear bracing, problem is poor AI that can't even use spears against horses, even if it have them in inventory.

Adding more combat mechanics in to the system with AI that is unable to use even existing ones is not going to improve anything. More likely, it will just make situation worst, instead of better. Like AI bracing against infantry attack or AI bracing against horses that are not actually charging it.

Another problem with cavalry-infantry interaction in MB is unrealistic concept of horse impact damage and horses plowing through infantry lines. That mechanic too is just poor supplement of insufficient AI. But that was disused to death elsewhere.