Bows/Crossbows Overpowerd ore underpowerd

[TheSlightFeelingOfRegret]

On level ground there is no physically possible way (short of quantum interference*) that an arrow can strike a point on the same level that it was fired at with greater speed than that with which it left the bow.


* and windspeed, but that isn't modelled in the game.

 

[LokiGodOfFire]

My proposition:

just include some other arrow types:
Bows give +x on damage
arrows indicate the damage ratings like:

Strongbow dmg +15
Bodkin arrow 23 p

and include some broadhead arrows:

15 cut
5 pierce

 

[Frankoman]

It could take years for a longbowman to become sufficiently trained, whereas the crossbow's simplicity of use made it suited to even the basest peasant, so long as he didn't point it at the wrong people. More expensive to produce, perhaps, but the lesser amount of money it required to use grossly overbalanced that.

Crossbows applied so much force to each bolt (between 400 and 600 pound draws), that they necessarily required great amounts of force to draw. Men are only so strong, but as time went by, innovations were born, and soon there were stirrups in nose, and hooks on men's belts, so that to redraw the bow they needed only to bend down, insert their foot in the stirrup, and draw the cord back with the hook as they straightened as we see in Mount and Blade.

Also when you think about it a longbowmen would probably fire at the horse and not the knight.
Most horses weren't armorer due to the size and diffuculty of getting an accurate measure.

There is no doubt that the circumstances determine which weapon is best in every case, but I would think that the range of the longbow would make it better suited for ambush, where the element of surprise might make up for the lesser stopping power; it is also my personal belief that, while the crossbow took somewhat longer to reload than the longbow, the rate was still high enough, especially later on, to make it aptly suited for pitched battles, where the knowledge that crossbows were in use might also be used as a weapon. A longbow would be bulky in an ambush with lots of brush and trees. A crossbow is easier to manuever.

t was really rather saddening in how a knight with years and years of training could be killed instantly by a peasant with one day's experience with the crossbow. It seems, though, that the death of sophistication and pride is a side effect of progress: technology and its limitations are the bane of specialization and customization.


The Crossbow is much more accurate and stronger then the bow, it lets loose a very powerful bolt. However, the bow can fire much more rapidly, and in a large group it would be much better to have 30 men with bows, firing 6 shots a minute inaccurately then have 30 men with crossbows, firing at the most 3 shots inaccurately a minute.

 

[Likantropos]

BTW the bows must be not only stronger, but much faster, imo. At lest of 125 sr...

 

[Frankoman]

... Which is completely historically inaccurate. As I said, crossbows take at least 400 - 600 pounds to load, which is about the amount your Character can give I'd say. Bows only take about 100 - 175 pounds, and is much easier to do.

If the bows were to become much better then the Crossbow in Mount and Blade, then I will just suggest the bring back Zombies, Undead, Dark Riders with parties of 102934 at every other pixle,, and an annoying, loud buzzing sound playing forever. 

 

[LokiGodOfFire]

I'd not improve the bow speed. It is allright to take time to aim the shot a bit while drawing. Crossbows just have to be a lot more effective against armored units, but they need to be slowed at halve speed. Reloading a crossbow repeatet times with that speed is nothing I'd expect a peasent to do.

I had some experiences while rifle shooting:

Shooting while prone: was perfect, i could give fast accurate shots that all hit.
After running: my pulse was higher and i had problems with the hitting.

Same with fast reloading crossbows, to some extend you might be able to reduce this penalty.
Some drugs aswell can increase accuracy by reducing your pulse... sometimes used by snipers.


Another thing, due to the fact of rising adrenaline while in battle and higher pulse, you should
A) get to hit penalties when shooting closely after running.
B) get penalties if you already had to fight in melee

 

[RF Nigth]

yet i have heard that a heavy crossbows are less accurate then a long bow cause the kick it produce..
edit:
Although a longbow had greater range, could achieve comparable accuracy and faster shooting rate than an average crossbow, crossbows could release more kinetic energy and be used effectively after a week of training, while a comparable single-shot skill with a longbow could take years of practice.


A few modern military units are equipped with crossbows as even lower noise alternatives to suppressed firearms

 

[RF Nigth]

Hum i edit the war bow whit 40 p damage and bodkin whit 40p damage 1 hit 1 kill at sea raiders whit a right shoot in uperbody...
Just fore the fun off it..
still feels week cause the string sound dunno about the range

 

[LokiGodOfFire]

From all what i experienced with heavy kickback weapons:
I shot the german machine gun while prone, wasn't too easy to hit.
The german G3 has about the same kickback as an 80kg crossbow, so if you got it pressed hard against your shoulder you can hit everything where you want too.

The kickback issue with heavy crossbows was reduced since they were used on closer range, to get a decent punch and penetrate the armor hopefully.

 

[Dionesios]

Hmm, that's interesting about the cuckolding thing.  As that is commonly the worst insult in many cultures, it would make sense, but was it a single horn?

Armor penetration on crossbow might make up for it, but even if you agree the game is balanced on bows more or less, all historical accuracy aside, shouldn't a head shot do a little more damage?  I was playing the siege attack quick battle and was landing several headshots on a guy before he'd dropped it seemed, most for about 40 damage.  I don't know how it works, like if it says the 40 damage and then 20 is negated by a helm or whatever, but it seemed to be taking more than one.  For the reload time on the crossbow, I'd just expect a lot of power.

As to the kick back I've heard that on guns at least the bullet is discharged before the actual kick happens, so in a single shot it doesn't effect your aim, though on a machine gun it would.  Not sure on a crossbow.

I'm just particularly fond of the idea that crossbows f stuff up, but are quite slow to relaod but bows are quicker and do much less damage.  I just want to walk up to one guy and blow his limbs off before switching to my sword to fight the rest.  If someone was saying 400 lbs of draw, that's a lot, especially if you're close.

The point of peasants shooting versus trained men shooting is kind of moot, imo, since that's why you rank up your men.  Ya, a peasant with only 1 week you might expect that, but by the time I have a squad of Swadian Sharpshooters or whatever, they're veteran archers, I'd expect a little more than for them to be performing at the level of my peasant recruits.

 

[RF Nigth]

I agree much that the cross bow should have more damage and stronger then bows.
dunno about the range off crossbow so much.

the stock of the crossbow was often angled very slightly upwards (as a modern rifle is) so that when aimed on a flat trajectory at a man's head at 50 yards.
the bolt would not hit lower than the chin.
The crossbows used in battle have a longer and more effective range than the longbows. This is due mainly to the poundage, a typical battlefield crossbow having anything up to 1200lb draw weight whereas the heaviest longbow would be in the 150lb area. The projectile also has an effect. The crossbow bolt is smaller and offers less resistance. When compared on equal draw weight, the crossbow and longbow are roughly equal on range, the crossbow slightly losing out to the longbow in this Researcher's experience.

arrows are developed to 'fly' and are lighter. The crossbow bolt is not. It is short, sharp.
Enough that archers should be able to hit the enemy from the side off the map

 

[The Pope]

One thing I'd like to see is a reduction of cone of fire coupled with a wobbling aim point. The crosshair would work as it does now, but if you looked at the bow itself you'd get a bit of an idea where it was going to go within the cone. There would still be a bit of scatter off this aim point, but this change would prevent those absurd looking shots where the arrow flies off at a 60 degree angle away from where its pointed. When riding a horse, your aim could jolt up and down whenever the hooves hit the ground.

Imershun++ 

 

[LokiGodOfFire]

What i really would love to see would be more realistic animations of crossbows.
Shooting a crossbow standing is the same with rifles, its not too accurate, therefore you kneel down, press one elbow against your knee and get a hard press against your shoulder with the crossbow.
If youre trained you'll hit anything within 300 meters.

 

[RF Nigth]

I think they stand when they shoot and absorb the bounce whit the legs. And fire the arrow when the horse is in air, if it's in gallop
well it would be cool if the aim jump up and down whenever the hooves hit the ground.

About the realistic animations of crossbows.
the large shield they used don't know there name (pa? pi?) they could press left elbow one the shield and aim. while have a good protection when reloading.

Dame get me think about hunter games ore first shooters, as the aim is never calm. Ore it's move in same phase as your Breathe 

 

[Carolus]

the shield is called pavese.

i saw pics of reenactors doing their shooting practice with the crossbow standing upright

 

[LokiGodOfFire]

You actually shoot the crossbow upright aye, if your behind a pavese behind a wall or a line of infantry. But the aiming is clamer and more accurate if you kneel.

Theres another simple explanation why they shot him standing:
To reload you needed a windlass or the footbar, since most armies used heavy crossbows. THose ones can't be reloaded properly from kneeling or prone position.

But what i want is that i get the ability to use those tactical factors. In medieval times a crossbow 3was the only weapon that could be shot from kneeling or even prone position. SO give a light crossbow to a bandit and make him preparing an ambush, he'll be harder to spot since he will be likely to get in proneposition, than an archer.

Same with firearms in napeleonic times, they were too long to be reloaded from kneeling, but a light crossbow isn't. Thats what i want, the possibility to reload a light crossbow from prone and kneel positions and too shot every crossbow from these psoitions.

 

[Carolus]

you are right. not beeing able to kneel down really gets me sometimes.

 

[Will Greaves]

If bows kill with one hit, then so should melee weapons.  Quit trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Bows are already, on average, overpowered.  They're much more effective against most types of armour than they were historically.  In addition, troops in the game don't have the ability to duck and crouch behind their shields like real ones did.  Lastly, many of the shields in the game are much smaller than their real counterparts.

 

[Tarrantmw]

If bows kill with one hit, then so should melee weapons.  Quit trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Bows are already, on average, overpowered.  They're much more effective against most types of armour than they were historically.  In addition, troops in the game don't have the ability to duck and crouch behind their shields like real ones did.  Lastly, many of the shields in the game are much smaller than their real counterparts.

when I'm riding a horse, my one handed sword kills with one hit.

I think the part I bolded is a good point as well though.