Borcha & Marnid - I noticed something tactical....

[Harr-the-Ruskie]

Did you know that the NPC placed higher on the party ladder will be the one with the greater tendency to run off on his own seeking solitary combat after you give the 'Hold This Position' command.

My party ladder always has Borcha & Marnid on the top 2nd and 3rd slots. Normally the guy on 2nd will display a tendency not to follow commands to stay with the group. The 3rd will hang around close to the group. If he did venture off, he will not not go far away.

While it may seem like an irritation to many players, the upside to this is the glory seeker has more chance for inidividual action and hence improvement on personal weapon proficiency.

In the event that both NPCs obey 'Hold This Position' & 'Dismount' Commands, you will also notice that No. 2 tends to place himself further in front of the dismounted pack, and therefore has more of a chance to engage the enemy with ranged weapons (if available) compared to No.3 who more often tends to place himself within the pack.

What I normally do to give the NPCs an equal chance to get combat time is to swap them as No.2 and No.3 between engagements.

Currently, I'm building Marnid and Borcha as mounted archers with two handed weapons. Coming along nicely but still a long, long way to go.

 

[Ildur]

It could be just a bug, but I'm not sure. And yes, it's iritating when my soldiers don't stay, when they could make it better at exactly that battle they just running towards death

 

[JohnathanStrange]

I thought I was imagining a difference in their suicidal or disobedient behavior. Sometimes Borcha, sometimes Marnid, sometimes both, will not listen to my "Hold Position" order. I didn't suspect that it might be based on their position in the party order slots. Good to know, have to test it.

I was leveling up Marnid and Borcha too, for awhile, just to pass the time. Their stats do become impressive once I stop spending their experience points on surgery or pathfinding, and spend in on combat skills.

Their performance remains erratic though, sometimes being devastating and making many kills, and other times getting swarmed by pirates. It seems to me they're very impressive if they've got plenty of allies or you babysit them by issuing commands to follow when they're heading for a group of footsoldiers.

I would really level up M & B enthusiastically if they had a slightly better ability to fight on their own, as it is, even at the higher levels they still run into troubles needlessly.

 

[katank]

Still, I don't think there is much point. Through mods like Lost Lamb's and Mag 7, I've played with NPC's that are lvl 40+ and even a lvl 50 (Angus the black, berserker).

Only the lvl 50 one came close to making as many kills as I do. Even then performance is erratic and sometimes he'll get KO'ed without a single kill.

 

[Harr-the-Ruskie]

Still, I don't think there is much point. Through mods like Lost Lamb's and Mag 7, I've played with NPC's that are lvl 40+ and even a lvl 50 (Angus the black, berserker).

Only the lvl 50 one came close to making as many kills as I do. Even then performance is erratic and sometimes he'll get KO'ed without a single kill.

It depends what you are expecting. If you are expecting AI to mirror a human, responding to every conceivable situation with its endless permutations, I think that is a very difficult thing to program.

Personally, I find the NPCs and soldiers in M&B most effective when, as Jonathan describes it, you "babysit" them. In any one battle you will find me repeatedly giving commands depending on how the battle is going. I tend to tactically micro-manage my battles and if I see any of my soldiers in a touch spot I will lend close support. If I see it is tactically better to change a holding position or to stay a charge until the right moment, I will act accordingly.

That's the only way I have managed to husband and maintain a large grouping of hired blades, knights and sharpshooters....by simply not throwing them away to blind charges.

In one way, the game allows you to be aloof and leave the fighting to your soldiers, but where it really shines is when you join in battle and take an active part.

Acting collectively rather as individuals is where you should get the most enjoyment from M&B. And those large battles involving many troops with the added challenge of coming on top with least casualties is damn exciting.

 

[JohnathanStrange]

Yes, a gamer-controlled level 25 hero is more dangerous than an opponent than an A.I.-controlled level 50 hero in most situations. The gamer-controlled hero can avoid enemy mobs, pick off isolated bandits, seek the high ground for a missile shot, come to the aid of a needy comrade, successfully fight independently of the group, break off the fight if momentarily outmatched, and switch to another part of the field.

When I first started M&B in April, I'd hoped that my hero, Marnid, and Borcha could fight most battles on our own once we leveled up high enough - but really, I've seen level 45 Borcha and level 43 Marnid and myself (level 4 go against 15 river pirates (easy prey) and watched Borcha, outfitted in Black Armor and riding a spirited warhorse, charge into the mob of club and knife wielding bandits and get knocked out fast.

Yeah, I get much better results micro-managing their combat, but my vision of having two equal partners did not happen. I have two lackeys who if you watch them closely and don't expect too much, will surprise you and be deadly soldiers. If you watch over them.

Fun game, nevertheless.

 

[Innocence]

I feel you really have to let the enemy come to your soldiers, not the other way around. If you order them to charge every soldier will run until he's totally surrounded by enemies and the outcome is always the same.

Making them stand ground and feeding them small portions of the enemy while you distract the main part is the only way I've been able to keep them alive.

 

[Rando]

I've seen level 45 Borcha and level 43 Marnid and myself (level 4 go against 15 river pirates (easy prey)

How did Borcha and Marnid become 40+ while you stayed at 4? You must really like to not fight your battles... or maybe 8 + )=

Anyways, I find that the best way to keep Marnid & Borcha from dying is to keep them at the bottom of the list. That way they hardly ever actually enter the fight until everyone else is dead. This also means that they are completely useless to me but, apparently they aren't much good while in combat either.

 

[katank]

Dead? They only become unconscious and thus are expendable meat shields. Dead soldiers I have to raise again.

I mourn my dead knights but barely blink when Marnid and Borcha goes down since they'll be up and about shortly.

I let them charge into an enemy mob so the enemy are in a nice tight group and I can freely rain death onto the mob without worrying about friendly fire.

 

[JohnathanStrange]

I've seen level 45 Borcha and level 43 Marnid and myself (level 4 go against 15 river pirates (easy prey)

How did Borcha and Marnid become 40+ while you stayed at 4? You must really like to not fight your battles... or maybe 8 + )=

Anyways, I find that the best way to keep Marnid & Borcha from dying is to keep them at the bottom of the list. That way they hardly ever actually enter the fight until everyone else is dead. This also means that they are completely useless to me but, apparently they aren't much good while in combat either.

That was a typo level 48 becomes level 4 when you add a parentheses. 4.

I always use M&B in fights because as ordinary troopers and part of a larger warparty, they can make good kills. Just rarely anything special to identify them as "heroes."

I feel you really have to let the enemy come to your soldiers, not the other way around. If you order them to charge every soldier will run until he's totally surrounded by enemies and the outcome is always the same.

Making them stand ground and feeding them small portions of the enemy while you distract the main part is the only way I've been able to keep them alive.

That's a standard tactic and often very effective; I use it also. It depends on whom I'm facing and what I'm bring to the party.

For months, we've mentioned (while simultaneously enjoying the game immensely and having a great deal of fun) that our hero does seem to have to do "most of the work" in fighting and distracting the enemy.

For example, the enemy cavalry charges ahead of their infantry and if you've held your position your massed troops can easily finish them while you ride ahead solo and wreak havoc on the following infantry. Then when you've whittled them down, you can lead them back to your troops or order a general charge.

Love the game, but would like some additional variety in combat: add formations, buildings, etc. (Sorry, starting to hijack thread)

 

[katank]

I would say that I typically place my heroes first and use them as reusable fodder. It does seem that they get knocked unconscious far more often than ordinary troopers.

Examination of stats seem to suggest that they are not really more wimpy and that perhaps the battle order does affect suicidal degree. I've been blessed with losing far fewer troops otherwise.

 

[djl]

I believe their position on the ladder affects how likely they are to be part of your starting army, yes. But I also think their behaviour is determined by their weaponry, and not by their ladder position. It used to be the case that both Borcha and Marnid ran off to the fore and ignored my orders. I then removed Marnid's missile weapons, leaving him only with a lance, sword and shield. Since then, only Borcha goes off by himself with his throwing axes. Marnid obeys my "hold this ground" command.

 

[katank]

That is a problem with heroes.

On capture target missions, a few times my heroes equipped with missiles on horseback run off and shot up the target before I could knock him unconscious and completely ignored my hold position commands.