Bootstraping (starting game).

[bakters]

I think it's going to be much harder to get an effective crossbowman build here.  I will think about it, but for now I will just try to play the game more or less normally, simply to learn more.  I read guides and so forth, and I ask questions.

But the reality is, that I will most probably never learn PoP as well as I did Native.  Being quick in this game is really depended on detailed knowledge.  You need to know every map, every castle, every city, every place, including specific bugs and what not.  On top of that you need to know the enemies and your own troops very well, but that's obvious.  Then you can do a quick run, otherwise it's just not possible.

I will not spend that much time in PoP.  But I will give it a shot nonetheless. 

(I will probably cheat with Ctrl-T just to learn quicker and maybe for money, so I can afford to try various approaches.  I used to do this on Native too in the beginning.)

 

[thermocline]

You don't need anything for an effective crossbowman build except weapon master. It's literally the only skill that affects a foot crossbowman. HA 6 if you want to fire a maiden crossbow from horseback.

The whole point of the crossbow is that it's a decent backup missile weapon for a knight or swordsman, or it's a good primary weapon for someone with no weapons training at all.

If you are going for a pure int build, and plan to raise other stats with Qualis gems, crossbow is a pretty terrible choice except in the early game. You will have plenty of skill points to get to PD7 and use top-end bows, which absolutely decimate crossbows in DPS and possibly total damage as well, given that PD7 is +105% damage.

 

[noosers]

PoP is clearly not suited for speedrunning. As is anything else you don´t know well. So if you´re in for new records time wise, stick with native.

You should take your time and get known to Pendor and acquire the knowledge and understanding of the various game mechanics to pull off some very amazing and awesome things - but virtual dickwinking and bragging about speed will not do you much good here. So better forget it and enjoy yourself.

 

[heckani]

I think it's going to be much harder to get an effective crossbowman build here.  I will think about it, but for now I will just try to play the game more or less normally, simply to learn more.  I read guides and so forth, and I ask questions.

But the reality is, that I will most probably never learn PoP as well as I did Native.  Being quick in this game is really depended on detailed knowledge.  You need to know every map, every castle, every city, every place, including specific bugs and what not.  On top of that you need to know the enemies and your own troops very well, but that's obvious.  Then you can do a quick run, otherwise it's just not possible.

I will not spend that much time in PoP.  But I will give it a shot nonetheless. 

(I will probably cheat with Ctrl-T just to learn quicker and maybe for money, so I can afford to try various approaches.  I used to do this on Native too in the beginning.)

Whats your speedrun record in native?

Do you play with smaller battleize or whats your diffculty? Do you play with full settings normal damage/good ai etc?

I bet your time is like 10 times faster than mine lol

 

[bakters]

Whats your speedrun record in native?

Do you play with smaller battleize or whats your diffculty? Do you play with full settings normal damage/good ai etc?

I bet your time is like 10 times faster than mine lol

You'd lose your bet.  My best time is 162 days http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,289920.msg7001433.html#msg7001433
I did it on Diplomacy 4.2, which is not exactly Native, but the only reason to do it was because it removes a game breaking bug with lords respawning with no army.  Anyway, I used Diplo features and I reloaded, so be aware of that!  Maxed Difficulty settings and Battle Size, though.

I tried newer versions of Native and Diplo, but the game just breaks if you remove one faction a week, and that's how it goes in the end game.

Anyway, I won the fight which prompted me to start this thread.  I went after it methodically.  I made a separate save, so I could heal while learning and do not lose anything.  I lanced their horses down, then I tried to perfect my "charge and veer" crossbow technique.  It seems to work if you do it right...

Now I have a problem.  I have to decide if I should stick to crossbows or go for bows.  I think I will simply try bows, just to see how good they get.  Or simply see if investments in Archery are worth it.  My gut feeling is that it might be worth it in PoP, but it needs testing.

 

[thermocline]

Investments in archery are absolutely worth it with endgame gear, especially if you are going to use Qualis gems to boost your stats. If you want to maximize total kills per battle scene, sapphire bow with 3x large bags of arrows and PD 7+ can do very well in offensive sieges. It's also the best setup for field battles on smaller battlesizes, where you can get 50+ kills by kiting the enemy army around before you order your own troops to advance.

In a defensive siege I'd rather have a two-handed reach weapon, a shield on my back, and possibly a bow and arrows.

The key points that make archery better than most other weapons: 1) it has longer range than everything but a crossbow 2) it's much faster than a crossbow 3) it does significantly more damage than throwing or melee thanks to power draw being better than power strike and power throw, and 4) and headshots can do insane damage. It's only weak against shielded infantry.

All of this requires high power draw, high weapon proficiency, and top-end bows--Noldor composites or better. Realistically, it's a mid- to end-game setup.

 

[bakters]

Investments in archery are absolutely worth it with endgame gear, especially if you are going to use Qualis gems to boost your stats. If you want to maximize total kills per battle scene, sapphire bow with 3x large bags of arrows and PD 7+ can do very well in offensive sieges. It's also the best setup for field battles on smaller battlesizes, where you can get 50+ kills by kiting the enemy army around before you order your own troops to advance.

In a defensive siege I'd rather have a two-handed reach weapon, a shield on my back, and possibly a bow and arrows.

The key points that make archery better than most other weapons: 1) it has longer range than everything but a crossbow 2) it's much faster than a crossbow 3) it does significantly more damage than throwing or melee thanks to power draw being better than power strike and power throw, and 4) and headshots can do insane damage. It's only weak against shielded infantry.

All of this requires high power draw, high weapon proficiency, and top-end bows--Noldor composites or better. Realistically, it's a mid- to end-game setup.

  Big thanks for this writeup.  I will try both, but it seems to me that for a quick run crossbows might be better?  Because until PoP is much different than any other Warband mod, in the late game you are mostly directing your troops, and/or doing some crucial kills which AI is not able to do.  So if bows do better then, it's kind of irrelevant.  They might work 3 times better, and it still does not mean they are worth the investment.

But I will try both.  And I will not do a run of PoP.  I will resist!

 

[thermocline]

Crossbow early game, switch to bows midgame when you have high power draw and a noldor or better bow. Your proficiency will go up fast if you have high weapon master. Just ride around in circles against a blob of unshielded infantry and fire into the blob. You can get 5-10 points of WPF per battle.

 

[Ian Jones]

You guys are kind of missing the point. He's a speedrunner, he wants to win the game in like 200 days or less.

Your have a couple of options for an early uber weapon. One is the Sapphire (or Ruby or Emerald) Rune Bow.

隐藏

You'll need to get the free Qualis Gem from Rane, then go around getting rumors from travelers to trigger the Red Brotherhood quest to get a second QG. Find Brother Randalf and pay a QG to get the location for the Mines of Al-Aziz. Then you need Wolfbode to have spawned. Go to Ravenstern near Poinsbrook and a god will give you the Strange Ruby Bow. Take it to the Mines and pay a QG and a container of wine to convert it to whichever form you want (I prefer Sapphire). If you get REALLY lucky with the Red Brotherhood quest and Wolfbode you could get it in around 7 days played. It does have a PD 7 requirement though.

Another much less attractive option is to grind arena to level 30, hire Lethaldiran and plunder his Noldor Composite Bow (the mod blocks his inventory until you hit level 30). An even less attractive option is to train a bunch of Fierdsvain Berserkers or Empire Gladiators and try to autocalc a Noldor band and loot a bow that way. Takes a long time, very dicey and if you don't have a good Looting skill there's not much hope.

Best of luck to you. Pendor rewards patience and punishes the brash. A speedrun is probably doable but I think you're in for a frustrating time.

                    Speedrun Pendor?
          A practice in pain and frustration, even perhaps futility.
Speedrun the Dread Legion?The Jatus?The Empire.Feck,nevermind the other factions.RRRRRRRight!!!!!!
Heck,I doubt you can even speedrun the small Knight Order Troops like the Immortals of Janos and LionKnights of Sarleon that spawn occasionally.Small but crazy hard to defeat Knight Order Troops-150-200 Immortals marching to help Marius?Yikes!
If you can,then you are playing a very different version of Pendor than I did.
      Goodluck.God Bless.Have fun with that dude or rather have not fun with that dude.

              If you want a better bow early,try your luck(Loot)with small bandit groups near Marleons that have 1 or 2 Rogue Knights who sometimes use a Noldor bow,or you can kite small Noldor warbands to Empire or Sarleon Lords.Who knows,along with a Noldor bow you might even get a Noldor sword,and a Noldor Horse,of course,of course.
               

 

[bakters]

                    Speedrun Pendor?
          A practice in pain and frustration, even perhaps futility.
Speedrun the Dread Legion?The Jatus?The Empire.Feck,nevermind the other factions.RRRRRRRight!!!!!!
Heck,I doubt you can even speedrun the small Knight Order Troops like the Immortals of Janos and LionKnights of Sarleon that spawn occasionally.Small but crazy hard to defeat Knight Order Troops-150-200 Immortals marching to help Marius?Yikes!
If you can,then you are playing a very different version of Pendor than I did.
      Goodluck.God Bless.Have fun with that dude or rather have not fun with that dude.

              If you want a better bow early,try your luck(Loot)with small bandit groups near Marleons that have 1 or 2 Rogue Knights who sometimes use a Noldor bow,or you can kite small Noldor warbands to Empire or Sarleon Lords.Who knows,along with a Noldor bow you might even get a Noldor sword,and a Noldor Horse,of course,of course.
             

Usually, the more complex the game the more loopholes through which you can squeeze yourself through.  Of course, you must know those loopholes, and this comes with experience of actually playing the game or reading about it.

So yes, speedrunning Pendor is a lot of hastle, because you have to know whatever there is to know about this game and do several playthroughs.  This takes a looong time, and I never planned on doing this.

But assuming someone would do the groundwork here, then it's only a matter of finding a successful farming strategy and doing it quite a lot. 

 

[Drakken]

Helping the lords against small packs of noldors can be very rewarding..
looting and path finding needed..

 

[bakters]

It actually crossed my mind.  How looting actually works in this game.  I got the impression that it's somehow reworked from Native.

 

[madboy]

It actually crossed my mind.  How looting actually works in this game.  I got the impression that it's somehow reworked from Native.

I can only relate to my experiance in looting 10 (14), don't  know much about the inner mechanics.
I wanted to make looting my prime asset in afterbattle economics (hate clicking prisoners from one side to another... ) and in battles roughly 1:1 the loot value is somewhere between 6-10k denars in the first 15 items (five rows of loot), sold at 7 trade (my 5 + bonus).

in the long run it seems to make quite some profit if you war a lot even if the loot is not necessarily masterwork or lordly. surprisingly thick and balanced gear comes up more often than I thought (moneywise), best tho is rare (gearwise). 

so if you're talking money I'd g for top loot skill.

 

[bakters]

I can only relate to my experiance in looting 10 (14), don't  know much about the inner mechanics.
I wanted to make looting my prime asset in afterbattle economics (hate clicking prisoners from one side to another... ) and in battles roughly 1:1 the loot value is somewhere between 6-10k denars in the first 15 items (five rows of loot), sold at 7 trade (my 5 + bonus).

in the long run it seems to make quite some profit if you war a lot even if the loot is not necessarily masterwork or lordly. surprisingly thick and balanced gear comes up more often than I thought (moneywise), best tho is rare (gearwise). 

so if you're talking money I'd g for top loot skill.

  Big thanks.  It looks to me that Looting simply increases the overall number of items looted, like in Native.  Of course it will give you a higher chance of scoring something good, but there is no guarantee.  And overall it probably is not worth much...

Anyway, I restarted.  The reason being I'm a Linux geek, and Steam version simply crashes.  I went back to wine emulation, WB 1.143, which proved to be rock steady to me.

Then after a few initial battles equipped with a Short Composite Bow and a bunch of arrows I went after 20 Snake Men or something at my level of 2.  There was only one knight.  I won the battle.  I killed the knight with two packs of arrows and the rest mostly with bent arrows from my baggage.  4 of them ran away.  I couldn't kill them with the weapons and profs I had, so I had to let them go. 

I was not hit.  Not even once.  My horse (Spirited Courser) ate a bolt and one glancing hit from a bardiche.  I gained one measly level!  One! The loot was rubbish.  Just money.  One spear I can use.  On top of that I got 23 renown (which is fine) and 2 morale (which is rubbish).  2 morale?  That's just nonsense!

Sorry guys, but it's just ridiculous.  It's not like it was an incredibly difficult fight, I can farm those guys, but it was boring and just stupid.

(Anyway, my backup plan (if anyone is interested) was to kill just a portion of them and retreat.  As it happened, I managed to win.  Oh, no shield.)

 

[Bjuret]

It actually crossed my mind.  How looting actually works in this game.  I got the impression that it's somehow reworked from Native.

It is. All I know are myths and rumours, but a little bird whispered that the game generates triple the loot and only shows the top third.

 

[Montague]

I can only relate to my experiance in looting 10 (14), don't  know much about the inner mechanics.
I wanted to make looting my prime asset in afterbattle economics (hate clicking prisoners from one side to another... ) and in battles roughly 1:1 the loot value is somewhere between 6-10k denars in the first 15 items (five rows of loot), sold at 7 trade (my 5 + bonus).

in the long run it seems to make quite some profit if you war a lot even if the loot is not necessarily masterwork or lordly. surprisingly thick and balanced gear comes up more often than I thought (moneywise), best tho is rare (gearwise). 

so if you're talking money I'd g for top loot skill.

  Big thanks.  It looks to me that Looting simply increases the overall number of items looted, like in Native.  Of course it will give you a higher chance of scoring something good, but there is no guarantee.  And overall it probably is not worth much...

Anyway, I restarted.  The reason being I'm a Linux geek, and Steam version simply crashes.  I went back to wine emulation, WB 1.143, which proved to be rock steady to me.

Then after a few initial battles equipped with a Short Composite Bow and a bunch of arrows I went after 20 Snake Men or something at my level of 2.  There was only one knight.  I won the battle.  I killed the knight with two packs of arrows and the rest mostly with bent arrows from my baggage.  4 of them ran away.  I couldn't kill them with the weapons and profs I had, so I had to let them go. 

I was not hit.  Not even once.  My horse (Spirited Courser) ate a bolt and one glancing hit from a bardiche.  I gained one measly level!  One! The loot was rubbish.  Just money.  One spear I can use.  On top of that I got 23 renown (which is fine) and 2 morale (which is rubbish).  2 morale?  That's just nonsense!

Sorry guys, but it's just ridiculous.  It's not like it was an incredibly difficult fight, I can farm those guys, but it was boring and just stupid.

(Anyway, my backup plan (if anyone is interested) was to kill just a portion of them and retreat.  As it happened, I managed to win.  Oh, no shield.)

Experience is hardcoded by the level of the opposition, IIRC. Snake Cult units have good armor and weapons but are of lower level and proficiencies, thus less experience. I tried to warn you Pendor is not speedrunner friendly.

 

[bakters]

Experience is hardcoded by the level of the opposition, IIRC. Snake Cult units have good armor and weapons but are of lower level and proficiencies, thus less experience. I tried to warn you Pendor is not speedrunner friendly.

  I don't care for XP all that much.  Sooner or later I will gain enough levels to form a decent party.  The problem is morale.  Really?  2 morale?

I hope it's balanced out somehow elsewhere?  But honestly, after everything I read it seems to me that this game was written by hard-core table-top RPG fans.  I never liked those games.  This is the real problem here.

Native felt real, Pendor does not.  It feels artificial (and exploitable...) but ultimately boring.

 

[bakters]

It is. All I know are myths and rumours, but a little bird whispered that the game generates triple the loot and only shows the top third.

  Oh, thanks for that.  That is actually important.  Triple the loot?  Hmm...  And the best stuff must be looted?  Worth considering.

 

[sher]

I hope it's balanced out somehow elsewhere?  But honestly, after everything I read it seems to me that this game was written by hard-core table-top RPG fans.  I never liked those games.  This is the real problem here.

PoP is extremely well balanced and has great polished and intensive gameplay unlike boring and formal native module for Warband which is simply unplayable... ah, nevermind. All other mods simply suck in this department in comparison.

But maybe you just like to solo armies alone and feel cool about it, then PoP will disappoint since it has counters for that. With developed companions you can travel only with them and defeat anything but large armies, though you don't want to play it seems - you just want to rock right from the start and waste your real time on very long solo fights with parties you know nothing about. This is your problem not PoP's.

 

[bakters]

PoP is extremely well balanced and has great polished and intensive gameplay unlike boring and formal native module for Warband which is simply unplayable... ah, nevermind. All other mods simply suck in this department in comparison.

But maybe you just like to solo armies alone and feel cool about it, then PoP will disappoint since it has counters for that. With developed companions you can travel only with them and defeat anything but large armies, though you don't want to play it seems - you just want to rock right from the start and waste your real time on very long solo fights with parties you know nothing about. This is your problem not PoP's.

  What counters?  Do you suggest that if I take a few sacrificial peasants I will get more of everything?  More of anything?  Seriously, I'm just asking.

How about morale?  How it's supposed to be balanced?  Because you can take on lords with just companions, the gains need to be curtailed?  A way of dealing with power creep?

(Assuming I'm right) And then you tell me that Native is worse?  You can't take on armies with just companions there.  Bandits yes, but not armies.  And you don't need to see those weird "Speed bonus +200%.  You delivered 0 damage" or "Head shot!  You delivered 0 damage." messages.