Blatant Election Fraud in Russia - People Moderately Surprised

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Kobrag 说:
Danik Golovanov 说:
Just the fact that Putin is unpopular in the west is a good sign. Everyone who was popular there before him was a bad leader which only made one-sided "compromises" with Americans.

Dodes 说:
also it grinds my gears that that party is called communists when they are clearly soviets
For everyone who doesn't believe in communism anymore (or have never even done so), "Soviets" and "real communists" are same ****.
Not really, the soviets were nothing more than a pseudo-Autocratic Solcialist Dicatorship.

A true communist would dissolve that state and set up independant communes instead of party led states. 

Edit:grin:odes, go **** yourself. At least the Soviets never tried to out-and-out destroy the ethinic peoples they had undersway.
I'd like to introduce you to Ukrainians, Georgians, and Chechens

Suspicious Pilgrim 说:
Then your communism is false.
I don't understand what you are trying to say

my form of government wanted is wrong because true communism is just perspective? That doesn't make sense to me
 
The Economist conducted polls before the election and apparently most Russians think "it is a great shame the U.S.S.R no longer exists". The communists probably want a twin of the U.S.S.R.


The young people in Russia are such pricks nowadays, there are skinheads and communist fanatics that were born too late attacking minorities and other ****.

Ukrainians, Georgians, and Chechens


You mean the backwater Eastern European countries swallowed by Russia? The fact they were republics didn't mean ****.
 
Suspicious Pilgrim 说:
The Economist conducted polls before the election and apparently most Russians think "it is a great shame the U.S.S.R no longer exists". The communists probably want a twin of the U.S.S.R.


The young people in Russia are such pricks nowadays, there are skinheads and communist fanatics that were born too late attacking minorities and other ****.

Ukrainians, Georgians, and Chechens


You mean the backwater Eastern European countries swallowed by Russia? The fact they were republics didn't mean ****.

I'm saying that during the time of the USSR, Ukrainians, Georgians, and Chechens had ethnic cleansing preformed upon their people via starvation, which was a counter to the incorrect statement that Korbag made in contrast to the ethnic cleansing of nazi germany

I have no idea were you got the idea of republics and them not meaning ****    o_O
 
Kobrag 说:
Any facts to back this up, bub?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Uprising

also what's with the hostility in telling me to go **** myself?  :???:
 
Okay, one is doubtful that it's a premeditated act and arguments that is was economic in cause are substansive. Edit: Even the Ukraine's official stance is that it wasn't genocide...
The second is a deportation...
the third woould be classed as a militerised conflict more than genocide.=/


 
Suspicious Pilgrim 说:
The young people in Russia are such pricks nowadays, there are skinheads and communist fanatics that were born too late attacking minorities and other ****.
Oh the race thing in western Russia. Quite... violent. :/
Friend of mine met several Russian students on a travel. Told him it wasn't that bad to walk on the streets at night (for our standards, anyway) since they were white. Among them there was an asian who said he avoided going out when it was dark because violence.
 
Kobrag 说:
Okay, one is doubtful that it's a premeditated act and arguments that is was economic in cause are substansive. Edit: Even the Ukraine's official stance is that it wasn't genocide...
The second is a deportation...
the third woould be classed as a militerised conflict more than genocide.=/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor 说:
As of March 2008, several governments[24] have recognized the actions of the Soviet government as an act of genocide. The joint statement at the United Nations in 2003 has defined the famine as the result of actions and policies of the totalitarian regime that caused the deaths of millions of Ukrainians, Russians, Kazakhs and other nationalities in the USSR.[25] On 28 November 2006, the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian Parliament) narrowly passed a law defining the Holodomor as a deliberate act of genocide and made public denial illegal.On 23 October 2008, the European Parliament adopted a resolution[30] that recognized the Holodomor as a crime against humanity.[31]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29 说:
Forced deportation constitutes an act of genocide according to the IV Hague Convention of 1907 and the Convention on the prevention and repression of the crime of genocide of the UN General Assembly (adopted in 194:cool: and in this case this was acknowledged by the European Parliament as an act of genocide in 2004.[33]

The separatist government of Chechnya (or Ichkeria) also recognizes it as genocide, and made a memorial to it in the center of Grozny (see section below); as do Ingush nationalists. Kadyrov's government usually does not comment on the matter, though they dismantled Dudayev's memorial to the events of 1944-57 (see section below).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Uprising 说:
In October 1924, following the issuance of the commission’s report, some members of the Georgian Cheka were purged as "unreliable elements" who were presumably offered up as scapegoats for the atrocities.[14]

If you really want to go into a debate whether the Holodomor was a genocide or not, I'm game, I actually made a post about it in the Sage's guild a while back

Edit: Found it: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,199648.msg4796741.html#msg4796741

Dodes 说:
HOLOCAUST AND HOLODOMOR

by Nicholas Lysson (April 2007)

A particularly relevant parallel to the Nazi Holocaust is the Ukrainian Holodomor of 1932-33, a state-created famine—not a crop failure—that killed an estimated five million people in the Ukraine, one million in the Caucasus, and one million elsewhere after the Soviet state confiscated the harvest at gunpoint. Throughout the famine, the state continued to export grain to pay for industrialization. [...] Norman Davies gives the following description in Europe: A History, p. 965 (Oxford University Press, 1996). His first paragraph assembles quotations from Conquest; the bracketed phrase is his own:

“A quarter of the rural population, men, women and children, lay dead or dying” in “a great stretch of territory with some forty million inhabitants” “The rest, in various stages of debilitation,” “had no strength to bury their families or neighbours.” “well-fed squads of police or party officials supervised the victims.”

All food stocks were forcibly requisitioned; a military cordon prevented all supplies from entering; and the people were left to die. The aim was to kill Ukrainian nationhood, and with it the “class enemy.” The death toll reached some 7 million. The world has seen many terrible famines. But a famine organized as a genocidal act of state policy must be considered unique.

See also Oksana Procyk, Leonid Heretz and James E. Mace, Famine in the Soviet Ukraine, 1932-33 (Harvard University Press, 1986); Nicolas Werth, The Great Famine, in Stephane Courtois, et al., The Black Book of Communism (pp. 159-6:cool: (Harvard University Press, 1999); Edvard Radzinsky, Stalin, pp. 257-59 (1996); Miron Dolot, Execution by Hunger (1985); Simon Sebag Montefiore, Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar, pp. 84-85 (2003); and the Commission on the Ukrainian Famine, Report to Congress (198:cool:. That report, at pp. 6-7, cites estimates of the number killed that range as high as 8 million in the Ukraine and 9 million overall.

Piers Brendon, The Dark Valley, pp. 248-49 (2000) gives this description, drawn from still further sources, all cited in his notes:

"A population of “walking corpses” even ate horse-manure for the whole grains of seed it contained. Cannibalism became so common-place that local authorities issued hundreds of posters announcing that “EATING DEAD CHILDREN IS BARBARISM.”

"They staggered into towns and collapsed in the squares. Haunting the railway stations these “swollen human shadows, full of rubbish, alive with lice,” followed passengers with mute appeals. [They] “dragged themselves along, begging for bread or searching for scraps in garbage heaps, frozen and filthy. Each morning wagons rolled along the streets picking up the remains of the dead.” Some were picked up before they died and buried in pits so extensive that they resembled sand dunes and so shallow that bodies were dug up and devoured by wolves."


Boris Pasternak says “what I saw could not be expressed in words. There was such inhuman, unimaginable misery, such a terrible disaster, that it began to seem almost abstract, it would not fit within the bounds of consciousness.” See Brian Moynahan, The Russian Century, p. 130 (1994). Nikita Khrushchev, in Khrushchev Remembers: The Final Testament, p. 120 (1976), says “I can’t give an exact figure because no one was keeping count. All we knew was that people were dying in enormous numbers.”

According to S. J. Taylor, Stalin’s Apologist: Walter Duranty, The New York Times’s Man in Moscow, p. 202 (Oxford University Press 1990), “Soviet authorities require[d] that the shades of all windows be pulled down on trains traveling through the North Caucasus, the Ukraine and the Volga basin.” At pp. 239-40, Taylor says this famine “remains the greatest man-made disaster ever recorded, exceeding in scale even the Jewish Holocaust of the next decade.”

In September 1933, Duranty—who cultivated his relationship with Stalin, and is remembered today for his public denials that any such thing was happening—privately told fellow journalists Eugene Lyons (United Press) and Anne O’Hare McCormick (herself from the New York Times) that the death toll was 7 million, but that the dead were “only Russians.” (Sic: mostly Ukrainians; and note the word “only.”) See Lyons, Assignment in Utopia, pp. 579-80 (1937). Duranty’s number is described in Lyons’s book only as “the most startling I had heard”, but is revealed in Lyons’s Memo for Malcolm Muggeridge (Dec. 9, 1937), quoted by Marco Carynnyk in “The New York Times and the Great Famine, Part III,” available online.

Several days after giving the 7-million number to Lyons and McCormick, Duranty told the assembled staff at the British chancery in Moscow that the toll for the Soviet Union as a whole might be as high as 10 million. See the report of William Strang, the charge d’affaires (Sept. 26, 1933), quoted by Carynnyk in the text accompanying n. 46. The British government referred publicly to the ongoing situation as an “illegal famine.” Id., n. 46.

Duranty’s 10-million number may have come from Stalin himself. It’s reputedly the same number Stalin gave Winston Churchill a decade later; see, e.g., Eric Margolis, Remembering Ukraine’s Unknown Holocaust, Toronto Sun, Dec. 13, 1998 (available online).

Lazar Moiseyevich Kaganovich (1893 ­1991) was a Soviet politician and administrator and a close associate of Joseph Stalin.
 
Kaganovich was born in 1893 to Jewish parents. In the 1930s.. he also oversaw the destruction of many of the city's oldest monuments including the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour. In 1932, he led the ruthless suppression of the workers' strike in Ivanovo-Voznesensk.
 
Kaganovich.. actively encouraged the policies of collectivization that according to many historians led to the catastrophic 1932-33 Ukrainian famine (the Holodomor), in which millions of Ukrainians died. Similar policies also inflicted enormous suffering on the Soviet Central Asian republic of Kazakhstan, the Kuban region, Crimea, the lower Volga region, and other parts of the Soviet Union. As an emissary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party, Kaganovich traveled to Ukraine, the Central region of Russia, the Northern Caucasus, and Siberia demanding the acceleration of collectivization and repressions against the kulaks, who were generally used as scapegoats for the slow progress of collectivization, and their supporters. In his book, The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivisation and the Terror-Famine, Robert Conquest named Kaganovich together with other Stalinist leaders of the USSR as having personal responsibility for the artificial famine.
Holodomor: The Secret Holocaust in Ukraine Written by James Perloff 说:
Despite a communist push for collectivization, Ukraine's farms had mostly remained private — the foundation of their success. But in 1929, the Central Committee of the Soviet Union's Communist Party decided to embark on a program of total collectivization. Private farms were to be completely replaced by collectives — in Ukraine known as kolkhozes. This was, of course, consistent with Marxist ideology: the Communist Manifesto had called for abolition of private property.

Intense pressure was placed upon Ukrainian peasants to join the kolkhozes. Twenty-five thousand fanatical young communists from the USSR's cities were sent to Ukraine to compel the transition. These became known as the Twenty-Five Thousanders; each was assigned a particular locality, and was accompanied by a weapons-bearing communist entourage, including members of the GPU (secret police, forerunner of the KGB). A communist commission was established in each village.

Holodomor survivor Miron Dolot, in his book Execution by Hunger, describes what happened soon after a commission was started in his village by its Twenty-Five Thousander, Comrade Zeitlin:

We did not have to wait too long for Comrade Zeitlin's strategy to reveal itself. The first incident occurred very early on a cold January morning in 1930 while people in our village were still asleep. Fifteen villagers were arrested, and someone said that the Checkists [GPU] had arrived in the village at midnight....

The most prominent villagers were among those arrested.... This was frightening. Our official leadership had been taken away in one night. The farmers, mostly illiterate and ignorant, were thereby left much more defenseless.

The leaders of Dolot's village were never seen again.
 
Ambalon 说:
Suspicious Pilgrim 说:
The young people in Russia are such pricks nowadays, there are skinheads and communist fanatics that were born too late attacking minorities and other ****.
Oh the race thing in western Russia. Quite... violent. :/
Friend of mine met several Russian students on a travel. Told him it wasn't that bad to walk on the streets at night (for our standards, anyway) since they were white. Among them there was an asian who said he avoided going out when it was dark because violence.
That's just ridiculous, because a huge amount of the skinheads looks fully Tatarian or Jewish. Probably they want to show how Russian they are by "saving the Aryan race" along with the real Russians.

Dodes 说:
killing people and Authoritarianism is bad m'k
the soviets were far worse then the nazis, and that's really saying something
if your communistic goals are identical with the soviets, then you have some real issues with civilian freedoms and democracy
That's... disappointing to hear. If Soviets were worse then the Nazis, why didn't you and other Western countries support Germany instead? Not to mention all the financial support you gave to the socialists under the revolution.
 
If you find that ridiculous you'd die laughing if you saw the people who like to call themselves skinheads here in Brazil.
 
Ambalon 说:
If you find that ridiculous you'd die laughing if you saw the people who like to call themselves skinheads here in Brazil.
  :lol: While I googled it I stumbeled upon Mongolian anti-Chinese neo-nazis.

nazi-salute-Mongolian-neo-Nazis-anti-chinese.jpg
 
Anti-Chinese, fine, but don't use Nazis for that, you silly sausages.
Rams 说:
I would love to see what the wannabe commies would make of it. Totally voting on them next elections.  :lol:
Didn't like 99% of Chechnya 'vote' for Putin's party?
 
Danik Golovanov 说:
Dodes 说:
killing people and Authoritarianism is bad m'k
the soviets were far worse then the nazis, and that's really saying something
if your communistic goals are identical with the soviets, then you have some real issues with civilian freedoms and democracy
That's... disappointing to hear. If Soviets were worse then the Nazis, why didn't you and other Western countries support Germany instead? Not to mention all the financial support you gave to the socialists under the revolution.
1)Nobody knew about these genocides, both those in Russia and Germany, until the end or even after they occurred
2)Nobody wanted another war
3)War with Russia could have caused WW3 and nuclear armageddon
4)At this time there was no UN and the League of Nations was too weak to do anything
5)The western countries didn't support Germany, because Russia wasn't the one blowing up their supply ships
6)Russia was a mutual ally in the war
7)Intervention is a very controversial subject, and usually unpopular and costly

Also why are you saying "you"? I wasn't even born yet when these genocides happened and even if I was, I suspect I would have little sway with western nations' agendas

Fortunately the United Nations was established and has intervened in nations to prevent/decrease genocides in countries

that said, why didn't you and your nations intervene?  :razz:
 
Dodes 说:
1)Nobody knew about these genocides, both those in Russia and Germany, until the end or even after they occurred
Everyone knew that the people taking over Russia and Germany belonged to extremist and terrorist organizations, and both of them could have been stopped if only someone wanted to.

Dodes 说:
2)Nobody wanted another war
3)War with Russia could have caused WW3 and nuclear armageddon
And the war with Germany + all Western countries against USSR  would be a lot shorter than WW2, as that is what I said, and not starting a 3rd world war after finishing the war with Germany.

Dodes 说:
4)At this time there was no UN and the League of Nations was too weak to do anything
So, how strong is UN today? They cannot even decide to try to stop a civil war or not without months of negotiations :wink: It's up to every country to listen to them or not, and the last thing is always unpunished and does not have any consequences for that country.

Dodes 说:
6)Russia was a mutual ally in the war
7)Intervention is a very controversial subject, and usually unpopular and costly
Yes.

Dodes 说:
Also why are you saying "you"? I wasn't even born yet when these genocides happened and even if I was, I suspect I would have little sway with western nations' agendas

Fortunately the United Nations was established and has intervened in nations to prevent/decrease genocides in countries

that said, why didn't you and your nations intervene?  :razz:
By "you" I obviously meant "USA" and not you Dodes  :smile: "me and my nations" wants to protect their interest in the first place, just like yours.
 
Danik Golovanov 说:
So, how strong is UN today? They cannot even decide to try to stop a civil war or not without months of negotiations :wink: It's up to every country to listen to them or not, and the last thing is always unpunished and does not have any consequences for that country.
e.g Libya
Dodes 说:
2)Nobody wanted another war
3)War with Russia could have caused WW3 and nuclear armageddon
2) Well, they nearly got one!
3) Nuclear? Maybe in four more years, but probably the same as Japan post German defeat.
 
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