Big religious debate thing MkII

[Jerky]

A bunch of geeks worshipping a giant cat, I'd say that's pretty ****ing stupid.

Worshipping the son of a carpenter who was nailed on a cross sounds a lot better then?
Every religion seems stupid from a point of view, but people lack the ability to see the religion from the follower's point, and that makes it stupid to them. They can't see the reason the worshippers do.

But hating someone for their religion is just stupid, from almost any point of view
And no, I'm not saying you hate me.

Hugglez!
=^-^=Jerky=^-^=

 

[Aratek]

Worshipping the son of a carpenter who was nailed on a cross sounds a lot better then?

Well, I'm one of those. 

Every religion seems stupid from a point of view, but people lack the ability to see the religion from the follower's point, and that makes it stupid to them. They can't see the reason the worshippers do.

But hating someone for their religion is just stupid, from almost any point of view
And no, I'm not saying you hate me.

You've made some good points there Jerky. 

People just don't get other people's religions because they aren't following that particular religion.  If people would look into other people's religions, then maybe they would better understand why that religion is that way.

 

[Jerky]

A good example was in South Park, where the Mormon's(Sp?) moved next to Kyle's house, anyone seen that one?

Hugglez!
=^-^=Jerky=^-^=

 

[TehGherkin]

I didn't see christianity wasn't stupid.

All religions are stupid.

Yours just seems even worse than most because it's just something some guy made up to be unique, and a bunch of people went 'OMG! I NEED TO BE INVIDIVUAL AND COOL TOO! I'M A FOLLOWER LOLOLOLOLOL!'

And let's face it, I bet none of you really take it seriously off the net.

And yeah, I read the thread too, I do know about it.

It's still stupid.


And, while Christianity is stupid, you have to practise what you preach here pal, I think you'll find there's a lot more to Christianity than worshipping a carpenter who got nailed to a stick, while Bujuism doesn't seem to be very much more than worshipping some giant cat.

You can't compare it to Christianity, because Christianity is so much more complex and meaningful.

It's still stupid, though.

 

[Aratek]

Actually, religion is not stupid at all.  If you say it is, then you probably have no earthly idea what religion is. 

I, for one, do worship the "carpenter who got nailed to a stick".  I also believe in the Bible...creation, the ten commandments, etc.

So, I do take religion pretty seriously...going to church and all that.

 

[Jerky]

I agree that Religions are not stupid, and that it is something a human needs, save a couple handfuls.
What I said, was that every religion can be seen as stupid and futile things if you want to.

while Bujuism doesn't seem to be very much more than worshipping some giant cat.

We just have a separate board for Bujuists to improve the religion, you just can't see it, it's hidden until it's ready to face the masses..

Hugglez!
=^-^=Jerky=^-^=

 

[TehGherkin]

I agree that Religions are not stupid, and that it is something an inferior human needs.
What I said, was that every religion can be seen as stupid and futile things if you want to.

while Bujuism doesn't seem to be very much more than worshipping some giant cat.

We just have a separate board for Bujuists to improve the religion, you just can't see it, it's hidden until it's ready to face the masses..

Hugglez!
=^-^=Jerky=^-^=

Fixed it there.

And yes, religion is stupid, it's extremely stupid, it causes wars, ruins lives, and misdirects people.

This is my opinion, and I stand by it.

Yes, of course I  know what religion is and I still think it's stupid, that's just my opinion.

I suppose another downfall of being Christian is that anything anyone says, you immediately assume they're saying this while also declaring that this is fact and the total truth, not their opinion?

Jerky: So you're making it up as you go along?

 

[Jerky]

May be, but think of a world without any religions, without any morals. If nothing is making you think twice, people would just do what they like. Sure, there might be law enforcers, but just throwing people into jail isn't going to stop them from doing it. Religion gives people an incentive to be good. You might think it doesn't effect anything, But I am very sure humans would be extinct if there were no religions.

I could add a lot of more points, but I'm way too tired to think, I've been up for fourty eight hours..
Ah well

Jerky: So you're making it up as you go along?

Bujuism? Nah, We Research ancient books and connect to the spirit world to find more information, No one's making anything up..
=>.>=

And the board thing was just a joke (As I'm sure you figured).

Hugglez!
=^-^=Jerky=^-^=

 

[TehGherkin]

Religion gives people an incentive to be good? I don't think so.

I don't follow religion, I think it's utter bull****, yet I know it's generally wrong to kill another person? Why? Well, it's hardly fair for me to just reach out and snuff out another person's life, that's obvious, I don't need religion to tell me that.*

You even say it yourself, in a world without religion, there'd be law enforcers, that shows that people know basic right and wrong.

So, what you're basically saying is: Jail doesn't work, and the only thing keeping thousands of serial killers and psychopaths the world over in check is religion, the thought that they'll go to heaven is stopping them killing people.

**** no, the thought that I'll go to jail and waste my entire ****ing life is what stops me (Every day, I'm tempted, despite knowing it's wrong; I just don't particularly care, 99% of people are filth that deserve it anyway.) from just slaughtering a several people I know out of the blue.

You think jail doesn't work? Yeah? So how come all those murderers and rapists aren't killing and raping you and your family? Why? I'LL TELL YOU WHY! They're in jail!

Yes, some of them do it again when, and if, they get out of jail.

That's why we have the death penalty (Not used anymore in this country, and not used enough in most.)

People do NOT need religion, it causes more **** than it solves.

*I don't need religion to tell me anything.

 

[Jerky]

I don't follow religion, I think it's utter bull****, yet I know it's generally wrong to kill another person? Why? Well, it's hardly fair for me to just reach out and snuff out another person's life, that's obvious

But you learned that from someone, most probably your parents, who said it's wrong to hurt people, and they learned it from their parents who learned it from their parents etc. etc. etc. who learned it from Jesus/Gandhi/God itself/Some other God/s.

You even say it yourself, in a world without religion, there'd be law enforcers, that shows that people know basic right and wrong.

And now that I think about it, I wonder why I said so.
Yes, but where did the laws come from? long ago, the laws were from the Holy book of the religion. Now they're separate, but the laws are still quite same, Don't steal, don't kill, don't commit adultery (Though that was legal at some point) etc. etc.

You think jail doesn't work? Yeah? So how come all those murderers and rapists aren't killing and raping you and your family? Why? I'LL TELL YOU WHY! They're in jail!

I'm not talking about a certain person here. If throwing people in to jail solves that problem, there wouldn't be anyone to send there anymore. But there is, isn't there? People will still kill, and people will still steal, and jail is not going to stop that.
Religion doesn't either you say? No, but like you, not all people follow a religion, and not all people really care about it.
Yes, jails are effective at keeping the crime doers at minium, but religion is more effective.
There is a lot you owe to religions, but I doubt you are old enough to see it. I could be wrong,you might be old enough, but you're too busy hating it to see what good it has done.
People have killed in the name of their god yes, but (even) without a god man would kill, there is no denying that.

Humans need something to believe in, be it some divine force or a great donut in the sky, they still need it. Sure, there might be some who claim they don't need anything, but they still do, and they do believe in something. They just can't see it.

P.S: I have probably given the impression that I think the bible is same for everyone, but I just haven't been able to study other religions as closely as that one, but I believe every holy book has somewhat the same concept, with different names Etc. of course.

Hugglez!
=^-^=Jerky=^-^=

 

[TehGherkin]

Um, no, I didn't learn that hurting things was wrong, I know hurting things is wrong because I don't like it when  I'M hurt, so people won't like it when THEY'RE hurt.

All parents do is stop you from doing it and explain that to you at a young age when you won't be able to understand it, Jesus didn't go 'Oh, btw, when you stab someone in the face, it's actually not nice, so you should like.. Not do that.' That's total bull****

And yes, there would be law enforcers, people don't like getting stabbed, it's total obvious that you'd need a system in place to stop random people being stabbed, if only on the principle that 'You wouldn't want it happening to you.'

No, jail is not a catch-all thing, but nothing is, NOTHING will stop people commiting crimes, there are people born out there who are total ****ing psychopaths, sociopaths, sadists, etc, who just don't care, or find it fun enough to do to risk it, and there are people who'll do it under the influence of drugs, or alcohol, or rage, and let's face it, most people are just plain stupid and think they'll get away with it.

Religion is not more effective than jail at keeping crime to a minimum, that is, by far, one of the stupidest things I have ever heard, I can't believe you actually think this.

Religion is hardly effective at all.

and yeah, nice one there 'UM WELL LOL UR JUST TOO YUNG ANYWAY LOL!!!!' Right, real smart there, because a person's age DEFINITELY reflects their intelligence, sense, and maturity level!

Yes, even without god, man would kill, but because we have gods and religion, there has been a lot more death caused. Even religion taking the wrong way or twisted, it's still the fault of religion itself.

And please, don't tell me what I do and do not need, save your pretentious, holier-than-thou bull**** for the idiots.

And no, you haven't given that impression, the only impression I've recieved out of reading your posts is that you're pretty naive, and not as smart as I thought you were.

Oh, I also get the impression that you're a ****ing bible thumper, that and you're looking for some attention here and generally being a forumwhore.

 

[Jerky]

No, jail is not a catch-all thing, but nothing is, NOTHING will stop people commiting crimes, there are people born out there who are total ****ing psychopaths, sociopaths, sadists, etc, who just don't care, or find it fun enough to do to risk it, and there are people who'll do it under the influence of drugs, or alcohol, or rage, and let's face it, most people are just plain stupid and think they'll get away with it.

I agree you on this one.

And please, don't tell me what I do and do not need, save your pretentious, holier-than-thou bull**** for the idiots.

And no, you haven't given that impression, the only impression I've recieved out of reading your posts is that you're pretty naive, and not as smart as I thought you were.

Oh, I also get the impression that you're a ****ing bible thumper, that and you're looking for some attention here and generally being a forumwhore.

*Sigh*
I am saddened to hear that you think that. My reason to do this was not because I wanted to show off, nor to make you think you're stupid or anything. You stated that you think religions are stupid, and that there's no need for them. I wanted to tell you why I believe they're so important.

I apologise that my post is left short, for I know not what to say, or rather how to say it, without a high chance of you taking it wrong or seeing it as an insult.
Please understand that I meant not to insult you in any way, I am not good at words when I really think what I'm writing. For now, I must take a break from our argument, I am clearly not skilled enough to express what I mean correctly.


See this as "LI3K, 0MG, JO0 R SUCH A N00B I DON WANNA 2 TAALK 2 U LOLOLOL UR GAY LOLOLOL" If you wish, but I assure you, That is not the point of this post.

Huggles,
Jerky

 

[Archonsod]

I don't follow religion, I think it's utter bull****, yet I know it's generally wrong to kill another person? Why? Well, it's hardly fair for me to just reach out and snuff out another person's life, that's obvious, I don't need religion to tell me that.

Why not? They are after all merely another competitor for resources. In fact, if we take a purely scientific view, they're nothing more than an accidental chemical reaction. What's to stop you terminating that reaction? Where precisely does the concept of fairness come into things if we deny any possible outside influence or ideal? If we abandon any possibility of an outside sentience governing the universe, then there cannot be any concept of good or bad, fair or unfair - the universe as a whole couldn't give a ****.

That's why we have the death penalty (Not used anymore in this country, and not used enough in most.)

The death penalty never reduced crime rates. Besides, following that logic to it's conclusion ultimately results in the extinction of the species (it's impossible for the dead to commit a crime)

And yes, there would be law enforcers, people don't like getting stabbed, it's total obvious that you'd need a system in place to stop random people being stabbed, if only on the principle that 'You wouldn't want it happening to you.'

This presupposes that humanity has a tendency to randomly stab itself when bereft of law and order. Given that civilisation and the laws that come with it are a relatively modern invention in terms of our species, this is patently untrue.

No, jail is not a catch-all thing, but nothing is, NOTHING will stop people commiting crimes

Try anarchy

Religion is not more effective than jail at keeping crime to a minimum

I suspect those religions where criminals were sacrificed to appease the gods were probably as effective as any law enforcement would be. The roots of the very concept of law lie within religion - the first laws were interpretations of a diety's commandments. Remove religion, and you no longer have any basis to apply laws.

Even religion taking the wrong way or twisted, it's still the fault of religion itself.

Is religion to blame, or do we merely use religion as a justification for our actions? If we remove religion, would we not continue to kill each other in the name of race, greed or some other equally fortuitous scapegoat?

 

[Jerky]

Bah, that's so unfair. That's exactly what I said, but you can actually get the point from Archonsod's post.

Hugglez!
=^-^=Jerky=^-^=

 

[Archonsod]

In all fairness, I've only been working nightshift for the past 12 hours.

 

[TehGherkin]

No, jail is not a catch-all thing, but nothing is, NOTHING will stop people commiting crimes, there are people born out there who are total ****ing psychopaths, sociopaths, sadists, etc, who just don't care, or find it fun enough to do to risk it, and there are people who'll do it under the influence of drugs, or alcohol, or rage, and let's face it, most people are just plain stupid and think they'll get away with it.

I agree you on this one.

And please, don't tell me what I do and do not need, save your pretentious, holier-than-thou bull**** for the idiots.

And no, you haven't given that impression, the only impression I've recieved out of reading your posts is that you're pretty naive, and not as smart as I thought you were.

Oh, I also get the impression that you're a ****ing bible thumper, that and you're looking for some attention here and generally being a forumwhore.

*Sigh*
I am saddened to hear that you think that. My reason to do this was not because I wanted to show off, nor to make you think you're stupid or anything. You stated that you think religions are stupid, and that there's no need for them. I wanted to tell you why I believe they're so important.

I apologise that my post is left short, for I know not what to say, or rather how to say it, without a high chance of you taking it wrong or seeing it as an insult.
Please understand that I meant not to insult you in any way, I am not good at words when I really think what I'm writing. For now, I must take a break from our argument, I am clearly not skilled enough to express what I mean correctly.


See this as "LI3K, 0MG, JO0 R SUCH A N00B I DON WANNA 2 TAALK 2 U LOLOLOL UR GAY LOLOLOL" If you wish, but I assure you, That is not the point of this post.

Huggles,
Jerky

The point of this post being 'Um, I'm worried you might take the piss out of me, or mis-interpret what I'm saying, because I am totally unable to clarify or make anything I say clearer!' or what?

Also, to address an earlier point: You have to take into account that many, many religions  in ancient times when they were apparently "defining the law and showing what's right from wrong" had practises that would be found abhorrent by modern religions and people.

I don't follow religion, I think it's utter bull****, yet I know it's generally wrong to kill another person? Why? Well, it's hardly fair for me to just reach out and snuff out another person's life, that's obvious, I don't need religion to tell me that.

Why not? They are after all merely another competitor for resources. In fact, if we take a purely scientific view, they're nothing more than an accidental chemical reaction. What's to stop you terminating that reaction? Where precisely does the concept of fairness come into things if we deny any possible outside influence or ideal? If we abandon any possibility of an outside sentience governing the universe, then there cannot be any concept of good or bad, fair or unfair - the universe as a whole couldn't give a ****.

That's why we have the death penalty (Not used anymore in this country, and not used enough in most.)

The death penalty never reduced crime rates. Besides, following that logic to it's conclusion ultimately results in the extinction of the species (it's impossible for the dead to commit a crime)

And yes, there would be law enforcers, people don't like getting stabbed, it's total obvious that you'd need a system in place to stop random people being stabbed, if only on the principle that 'You wouldn't want it happening to you.'

This presupposes that humanity has a tendency to randomly stab itself when bereft of law and order. Given that civilisation and the laws that come with it are a relatively modern invention in terms of our species, this is patently untrue.

No, jail is not a catch-all thing, but nothing is, NOTHING will stop people commiting crimes

Try anarchy

Religion is not more effective than jail at keeping crime to a minimum

I suspect those religions where criminals were sacrificed to appease the gods were probably as effective as any law enforcement would be. The roots of the very concept of law lie within religion - the first laws were interpretations of a diety's commandments. Remove religion, and you no longer have any basis to apply laws.

Even religion taking the wrong way or twisted, it's still the fault of religion itself.

Is religion to blame, or do we merely use religion as a justification for our actions? If we remove religion, would we not continue to kill each other in the name of race, greed or some other equally fortuitous scapegoat?

I know it's wrong because I'd ****in' hate it if that happened to me, and so would most people, and so most people can see that it'd suck pretty bad for that person if you did it to them, so it's not good to do it to them, etc.

Er.. I think it does shorten the crime rate, what with them not being able to commit any more crimes because they're dead? Which was my point.

It was an example, congrats on taking it completely literally, and uh.. Civilization and a Code of laws being a modern invention? Um, no, they had that thousands of years ago, Ancient Greece much? And even before then, did you think America invented it or what?

Yes, perhaps religions like that would be, but those are not the kind of religions we have, and obviously not the kind Jerky was talking about, so it's hardly relevant.

I've no doubt we'd continue to maim each other, but I'm not sure 9/11 would have happened without religion and the culture some religions create.

 

[Archonsod]

Also, to address an earlier point: You have to take into account that many, many religions  in ancient times when they were apparently "defining the law and showing what's right from wrong" had practises that would be found abhorrent by modern religions and people.

Many modern practices would also be found abhorrent by ancient people. Your point?

I know it's wrong because I'd ****in' hate it if that happened to me, and so would most people, and so most people can see that it'd suck pretty bad for that person if you did it to them, so it's not good to do it to them, etc.

So basically, your claiming a moral basis, yet ridiculing people who follow the same belief and call it religion? Your belief is different how?

It was an example, congrats on taking it completely literally, and uh.. Civilization and a Code of laws being a modern invention? Um, no, they had that thousands of years ago, Ancient Greece much? And even before then, did you think America invented it or what?

Yeah, because our species magically sprung into being 5000 years ago with an inbuilt knowledge of civilisation  Go work out those 5000 years as a percentage of the time our species has been around, then tell me anything that happened in the past 10000 years isn't relatively modern.

I've no doubt we'd continue to maim each other, but I'm not sure 9/11 would have happened without religion and the culture some religions create.

I'm sure Islam is to blame entirely for the Arab world being pissed off at over a century of exploitation by the West. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to sit back and take it if it wasn't for this Mohammed bloke.

 

[TehGherkin]

I don't think I'm getting through to you here, have you just jumped in to the discussion without reading parts of it? Because you don't seem to be understanding certain things, like why some things have been said, and things look like they're seeming out of context for you.

The point being that Jerky said (Basically) it was religion thousands of years ago that dictated the law, and I'm saying most ancient religions had some fairly abhorrent practises.

My belief is different because it's common sense, and right, being stabbed in the chest is not a cool way to spend your day, I think most people realize this, and so it's obvious to a person that stabbing people in the chest (I'm.. Just.. Using.. this.. As.. An.. Example.) is probably not nice; the rest of the culture (Assuming that a code of laws isn't in place) would probably frown on the stabbing, the victim's family and friends would grieve, and he may have had a purpose in the society (The baker, or whatever), which is probably how laws came about.

Um, no, you said the civilization and a code of laws were a relatively moddern invention. I'm not saying 'You're right! They had it thousands of years ago!' I'm saying 'No, you're wrong, it's not a modern invention, they invented it thousands of years ago, therefore it is not modern.'

Also, I'm totally not getting involved in a political debate about Islam now, I've tried debating this with tons of people, and (Granted, most people I've met who do this are American) go 'UM NO LOL ITS ACTUALLY NOT RITE, DESPITE ANY PROOF, EVIDENCE, HISTORICAL FACT, IM RIGHT AND UR WRONG LOL BECAUSE IT'S ALL OUR FAULT.'

My head will pop, and I will probably go outside and set myself on fire.

 

[calandale]

While religion is not necessary for morality (a point that some religious people have found difficult to accept, which makes me wonder about their inherent 'goodness' by the precepts of their own religion), both religion and moral rules share the trait that they both seem to depend upon some sort of axiomatic definition of 'right' and 'wrong'. While one can (as Kant certainly does) formulate imperatives which define a morality outside of any religion, based upon observation of 'reality', they are still axiomatic in nature. Likewise, of course, with purely egoistic moral systems. Any attempt to judge an act is doomed to fall upon some sort of unprovable claim.

My own (limited) morality does tell me that this thread definitely does not belong in 'Fun Stuff', however. Since the seperation into sub-forums, the off-topic has become a bit of a mess. Messiness is definitely WRONG.

 

[Aratek]

We should start a topic on religion, if it hasn't been already.

@ Gherkin: No offense, but you need some serious help there.  Perhaps Jesus?