Beta Patch Notes e1.7.2

[Terco_Viejo]

You never fail to get a good chuckle out of me Terco, nice one

I'm a clown, all for the show...you know .
Where would this have been without the memes...??

Thanks for your informative work of bringing us in videoblog mode the newest additions of the new patch practically a day after it was released.
---
For those who haven't seen it, here it is Artem's video blog



... a month and a bit earlier than Taleworlds' video devblog, predictably with outdated information then ?.

 

[Brandis.]

<snip> ?

I agree rambo is a problem with cavalry, but with shield turning or infantry rambo, this is one of the few areas in Captain that encourages personal pvp.

Rambo cav has significantly less emphasis on direct PvP, because you ride around pressing X off cooldown and hitting bots on the edge of lines so you don’t get hit back. I will admit it is a fun playstyle if you’re the cav, but it’s frustrating as the infantry, as the cav can usually just avoid your captain and you can’t cover everywhere if you’re not against terrain objects. Overall this is bad for the game mode.

That said, infantry rambo becomes silly if infantry captains are running across half the map to wipe a group of archers by themselves as shock with no shield. I’ve been the shock before and the archers don’t put up much of a fight. They don’t shoot you and you just one shot them one after the other. Not very skilled.

These problems would be solved by a midrange “leash” that if your units are too far away from you, they switch to Follow Me. The exception is if they’re on charge.

——————

However, the largest problem in Captain is the lack of troop and faction balance. I haven’t made a post on this in about a year so here’s the rundown.

Between two competent teams:

You can’t go archers without the entire team committed to the strategy, light archers and heavy archers have the same role so you just play whatever’s stronger (aside from some niche situations), light cav is worse in every situation than heavy cav, and generally you run the strongest of your factions light infantry, heavy infantry, or shock infantry (although some factions/troops have distinctions where you’d run different classes/perks for different matchups), and skirmisher infantry relies on enemies making major positioning errors while also not engaging (so basically standing with no shields and getting javved). When ranked comes out, most maps except Jawwali and Druimmor (idk if I got the names correct) will be straight 6v6 infantry or else you’re griefing. If you have a team advantage, you could play rambo cav or archer comps.

Faction balance is also probably bad, but due to lack of good players on both teams it’s harder to say. The factions that have stronger infantry (looking to be aserai/mace?) will be dominant and if you get a bad faction you might as well just afk. The exception is if your team is stacked and then you can rambo with heavy cav, which every faction except Battania has. If your faction loses in 6v6 infantry then you’re forced to try to either rambo cav or play an archer kite comp. While you can definitely kite 6 infantry, this is possible on only 1.5 maps, so most of what matters in a win or loss is decided by the faction and map at the start.

I will say that the current balance problems are difficult to gauge because in current captain matches you’ll have new players (or terminally bad) that pick archers/cav/skirmisher and/or not help the team in the main fight along with other major errors that have a higher impact on their value than choosing meta troops.

If our team has 4+ infantry, then I’ll almost always pick archers or cav myself, because playing infantry every single map is too boring. Cav is also the least team reliant but if I want to win, I’ll go infantry.

 

[CaptainFracas]

I totally agree with the balance issues !

But I didn't bring those to the table as for now, I think that the one thing that should be fixed as fast as possible (for the 1.7.2 live version) is the Rambo issue ?

Then, even if on some maps, the matches are only infantry rushs it would still be better then the current situation...

To have more variety in troops selection, I think that the archers should have the ability to aim at specific formation chosen by the player. Also, AI cav should be able to deal much more damages when going through enemy lines (by hitting the enemy instead of the air)

Those are long requested features but (from what I know) Taleworlds don't want to add those in and I don't know why. (At lease for the targeting order for archers)

 

[Dejan]

Didn't see anything about fixing the bug that caused companions to go into "holding" when they failed quests. Reported this back in January.

Fixed internally. Will be in the next hotfixes/beta patch.

No.
I dont understand the point of adding multiplayer notes if theres no way for us to actually test anything.

In the past, we have opened servers on the Beta branch to test combat changes, balancing,... We don't want to split the player base with this patch as it contains the ranking system.

We share the changes with Beta (even if not accessible in MP) as they have passed the internal testing and are included in the patch. There have been continuous requests made by your fellow community members to share as much information as quickly as possible, omitting MP changes from the Beta patch just because you can't test them yet would go against that.

@Dejan @NIN3 Very sorry for the ping, but I feel like now is the time or never to do it.

Thank you for your feedback. We're aware of the rambo issue and are exploring ways on how to resolve it in a way that doesn't negatively impact other aspects of gameplay.

 

[Horatius]

We share the changes with Beta (even if not accessible in MP) as they have passed the internal testing and are included in the patch. There have been continuous requests made by your fellow community members to share as much information as quickly as possible, omitting MP changes from the Beta patch just because you can't test them yet would go against that.

I guess the problem is that most of the times there are no beta servers meaning that the only thing we see is "it passed internal testing and is done, but TW is waiting for another patch to release this". Like we can see the features on the changelog, they are done you say as the internal testing is done and playerbase testing is often omitted (plenty of reasons for that) so the feature is just waiting due to some administration process.

The beta for MP looks nothing more than a waiting queue to me and many other I suspect, that is the problem. Not that you share them but that they exist and are done internally but not being made available.

(Just some other random idea, is to open beta servers every friday after there has been a larger patch to the game. This way you have scheduled testing. But that is a bit off-topic)

 

[CaptainFracas]

Thank you for your feedback. We're aware of the rambo issue and are exploring ways on how to resolve it in a way that doesn't negatively impact other aspects of gameplay.

I totally agree with the fact that a simple fix would break some aspects of the gameplay ?

That's why I've suggested this fix/new mechanic, which will not only fix the Rambo issue but also enhanced the global experience of Captain mode ?

As simple fixes (like the "leash" one) simes to not be good enough to meet Taleworlds vision for this mode, I really think that the suggestion I've made in the post that I've linked above is the way to go ?

 

[Spinozart1]

I totally agree with the fact that a simple fix would break some aspects of the gameplay ?

That's why I've suggested this fix/new mechanic, which will not only fix the Rambo issue but also enhanced the global experience of Captain mode ?

As simple fixes (like the "leash" one) simes to not be good enough to meet Taleworlds vision for this mode, I really think that the suggestion I've made in the post that I've linked above is the way to go ?

Your link is not working

 

[Greedalicious]

Fixed internally. Will be in the next hotfixes/beta patch.

In the past, we have opened servers on the Beta branch to test combat changes, balancing,... We don't want to split the player base with this patch as it contains the ranking system.

We share the changes with Beta (even if not accessible in MP) as they have passed the internal testing and are included in the patch. There have been continuous requests made by your fellow community members to share as much information as quickly as possible, omitting MP changes from the Beta patch just because you can't test them yet would go against that.

Thank you for your feedback. We're aware of the rambo issue and are exploring ways on how to resolve it in a way that doesn't negatively impact other aspects of gameplay.

Internal testing is all well and good, but if we find a bug or something that desperately needs to be changed, we have no way of reporting it early, and often have to wait months and months for a fix. We havent seen a patch for multiplayer so far this year, the last patch I can remember was the throwing weapons nerf and a few value changes, which was late December? 3 months without any content, and potentially having to wait months for this aswell, there are fewer and fewer reasons to play multiplayer.

Off the top of my head, some of my worries about the spectator system.
- If each clan has 1 spot each for a spectator, does that mean if both clans choose to have 1 person sitting on the server, there cant be any streamers at all? Commentating a match needs atleast 2 slots for the casters, solo casting is much less fun to watch, many have 3 casters, is that impossible with this system?
Considering many people still crash during games, I can see clans wanting someone to drop in as needed.
- What about high performance matches where a referee is needed to make sure rules are followed?
- How do they join the server? Whats stopping a clan from filling both slots?
- Can people see whos in spectate? Can they be kicked by vote?
- Will these spectators have free cam? If so whats stopping them from ghosting the position of the enemy over discord? Or enemy health?
- If the camera isnt free, how will spectating work if the matches are to be streamed?
- Are there any tools to make the streaming and commentating experience smoother? Does ALT highlight both teams nameplates? Is there a way to slow down the camera?
- Is there any HUD or UI changes? Half transparant backgrounds around the timer etc would help make the overlay smoother, and healthbars and icons are abit unclear. Some names are so long it covers the healthbar for example.
- Is there any way we can edit things like in Warband? Like load in a custom border and frame? Or change the size of icons?

Next patch will split the playerbase once its live anyway, so why not let people test it so any potential changes can already be discussed?

 

[CaptainFracas]

Your link is not working

Thank you for the info ! I just updated it ?

 

[aLiaXXXanger]

@Dejan @NIN3 Very sorry for the ping, but I feel like now is the time or never to do it.

To me, and to many players, Captain mode has a main issue that has never been addressed in Bannerlords multiplayer but has been in warbands (NW) commander battles years ago.

Rambos (players leaving their formation to attack the enemies alone) are in every captain mode match...

I always felt like captain mode is a game mode focusing on the commandment skills of the players. Winning a round in this mode should be about which team is the best at giving orders to their troops and about which team has the best team play. Also, (as Mount & Blade is not Total War) the fighting skills of the players should have a part in the battles once orders have been given (for example: a player, charging with his line of infantry). All in all, the player should be acting like an officer, giving orders to his formation and fighting with its troops once it's time to deal as much damage as possible. That's exactly what Taleworlds seams to advertise with this game mode in this video (in this gameplay recorded by taleworlds, there is no rambos, so it seems like it's taleworlds vision is that the captain mode should be played like that):

Currently the game mode is not played like that. Players use cavalry regiments as extra lives and attack the whole enemy army alone. Infantry players leave their line in the back of the ally army and go behind enemy infantry lines to use the IA flaws which makes them turn their shields and show their back to enemy archers...

Here is a example of a rambo cavalry player (he is fighting in the middle of the enemy army):
Link to the video

Here is a example of infantry players ramboing to hit ally infantry in shield wall and making them show their back to enemy archers:
Link to the video

Those are only 2 examples, but this type of "gameplay abuse" is present in every captain mode match and destroys it.

So here are my questions:

- Is Taleworlds working on a solution to this issue ?
- What is Taleworlds vision for this game mode ? (I don't understand it as this issue has been there since the first tests of the beta before the EA of Bannerlord and it hasn't been fixed. I'm a developer myself and all the easy fixes that the community has sheared on this forum sims easy to implement and relevant)
- Are we going to see any changes on this matter before the live version of the 1.7.2 ? (Launching the ranked games with the rambo meta still in the game mode would make it the norm)


As a M&B content creator that loves Captain mode, every week I play captain mode matches with my community though Clan Matches. In those, we forbid ramboing and the result is here. Our games are fun, not frustrating, much more tactical and bring many epic fights. We play like taleworlds do in its gameplay showcases. All the feedbacks that I have from new players that test captain mode through matchmaking are something like that: first, they struggle with how they are supposed to give orders to their troops and before they find out, they are getting destroyed by one guy, who is killing all of their archers by simply spinning around them.
When new players try the captain mode matches without rambos in it, they do not win, but they see what is the potential of the game mode and want to play it again to improve their commanding skills !

This issue needs to be fixed as soon as possible and especially before the release of the ranked matches. I hope that I will have a answer on this ?

Buddy you're a good guy, but please trust me, if you're saying that, so you just not up to the skill level in captains mode that will allow you to successfully counter Rambo's tactics. When this happens, you are unlikely to continue to wish for any limitation on such an interesting and quite realistic game tactical element as using/countering single actions of a squad member (aka Rambo tactics). Improve bro, good luck!
PS: I really wish this wasn't taken with resentment.

We're aware of the rambo issue and are exploring ways on how to resolve it in a way that doesn't negatively impact other aspects of gameplay.

Ok, if this doesn't really negatively affect the tactical variety and realism of the gameplay, then there is no problem... But, tbh, I don't see the need to switch the efforts of developers to this task, while there are a number of more relevant areas for the development of MP: new game maps, increased playability of some classes of units (for example, skirmishers are almost unplayable now, alas), these ?perks, etc.

Fixed internally. Will be in the next hotfixes/beta patch.

In the past, we have opened servers on the Beta branch to test combat changes, balancing,... We don't want to split the player base with this patch as it contains the ranking system.

We share the changes with Beta (even if not accessible in MP) as they have passed the internal testing and are included in the patch. There have been continuous requests made by your fellow community members to share as much information as quickly as possible, omitting MP changes from the Beta patch just because you can't test them yet would go against that.

Thank you for your feedback. We're aware of the rambo issue and are exploring ways on how to resolve it in a way that doesn't negatively impact other aspects of gameplay.

And one more thing: the huge potential for improving gaming skills is perhaps the main achievement of the guys from TW who created this great game. It's this component of BL that is the most important factor in the loyalty of its fans, especially for veterans of the game. Any careless steps towards casualization of the game can lead to changes in the volume (well, or structure) of the gaming community.
Please consider this, friends!

 

[Brandis.]

Buddy you're a good guy, but please trust me, if you're saying that, so you just not up to the skill level in captains mode that will allow you to successfully counter Rambo's tactics. When this happens, you are unlikely to continue to wish for any limitation on such an interesting and quite realistic game tactical element as using/countering single actions of a squad member (aka Rambo tactics). Improve bro, good luck!
PS: I really wish this wasn't taken with resentment.

What a horrific take.

DM did very well with rambo, but the times they lost maps was when they were forced to play infantry into rambo. Are you saying that everyone is too bad at the game, and that everyone should just find 6 players better than DM before queuing into captain mode?

 

[aLiaXXXanger]

Are you saying that everyone is too bad at the game, and that everyone should just find 6 players better than DM before queuing into captain mode?

Do not bring my arguments to the point of absurdity, please... this is really a "dirty" trick in a dispute.
I haven't seen a DM in captain mode in almost 1000 years. I have not seen a full stack of rambo players for the same amount of time... and even 3-5 rambos in the stack. 1-2 rambo in a party occurs no more than in 1 round (not a match) out of 20-30 matches, and with adequate team opposition, this does not create a problem, but, on the contrary, adds to the game's fascination. And certainly this does not require diverting TW's attention from solving the actual problems of game development.
In addition, I am sure that in the captain mode, the players who are able to effectively counter Rambo tactics are no less than those who can successfully use this tactic.

 

[Lord Grindelvald]

PS: I really wish this wasn't taken with resentment.

 

[five bucks]

Do not bring my arguments to the point of absurdity, please... this is really a "dirty" trick in a dispute

Just to chime in, someone taking your logic to its extreme to show you why you don't actually agree with your own argument is actually the fundamental way which disputes are resolved. So long as they aren't using a straw man (a line of logic you never put forward).

Your argument was that dealing with Rambo is a skill issue, he took that to its logical extreme with skilled players failing to deal with it and saying that by your argument you need all skilled players at all times to deal with it, which you obviously don't agree with, but that's valid arguing on his part.

I haven't seen a DM in captain mode in almost 1000 years.

This actually further supports his argument, if players that good are uncommon and those players have issues with rambo then it is impossible in practice to deal with rambo just by gitting gud.

1-2 rambo in a party occurs no more than in 1 round (not a match) out of 20-30 matches, and with adequate team opposition, this does not create a problem, but, on the contrary, adds to the game's fascination.

People don't do it because the average person who comes to Captain Mode is playing it for a gamemode where you get to have a squad of your guys fight a squad of enemy guys, while you contribute to the fight, in a team environment using tactics.

Instead using your squad of guys as "spare lives" and running off to kill AIs one by one without engaging in any tactics goes against the point of the game mode. It doesn't "add to the fascination", it's just basically fighting bots like you could do in singleplayer. In addition it can also be a very bad thing for your team in some situations, or overpowered in other situations.

If it's as uncommon as you say, then clearly not enough players find the Rambo exploit an interesting way of playing to be worth keeping in the game, if it pisses off so many players.

And certainly this does not require diverting TW's attention from solving the actual problems of game development

It is an actual problem because it is an exploit that goes against the spirit of the gamemode and, as you can clearly see, many many players do not like it. And it wouldn't take an enormous amount of time for TW to solve.

In addition, I am sure that in the captain mode, the players who are able to effectively counter Rambo tactics are no less than those who can successfully use this tactic.

Kind of irrelevant when players don't want Rambo to exist at all because, as said before, it is against the point of the game mode.

 

[Penn]

Is there any plan on working on armor and it's effectiveness?

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I'm just waiting for that ?DLC? so I can unleash my DUMBO CAV TACTICS!

 

[Danny5]

I'm just waiting for that ?DLC? so I can unleash my DUMBO CAV TACTICS!

Attack of the Oliphants

 

[aLiaXXXanger]

Just to chime in, someone taking your logic to its extreme to show you why you don't actually agree with your own argument is actually the fundamental way which disputes are resolved. So long as they aren't using a straw man (a line of logic you never put forward).

Your argument was that dealing with Rambo is a skill issue, he took that to its logical extreme with skilled players failing to deal with it and saying that by your argument you need all skilled players at all times to deal with it, which you obviously don't agree with, but that's valid arguing on his part.



This actually further supports his argument, if players that good are uncommon and those players have issues with rambo then it is impossible in practice to deal with rambo just by gitting gud.



People don't do it because the average person who comes to Captain Mode is playing it for a gamemode where you get to have a squad of your guys fight a squad of enemy guys, while you contribute to the fight, in a team environment using tactics.

Instead using your squad of guys as "spare lives" and running off to kill AIs one by one without engaging in any tactics goes against the point of the game mode. It doesn't "add to the fascination", it's just basically fighting bots like you could do in singleplayer. In addition it can also be a very bad thing for your team in some situations, or overpowered in other situations.

If it's as uncommon as you say, then clearly not enough players find the Rambo exploit an interesting way of playing to be worth keeping in the game, if it pisses off so many players.



It is an actual problem because it is an exploit that goes against the spirit of the gamemode and, as you can clearly see, many many players do not like it. And it wouldn't take an enormous amount of time for TW to solve.


Kind of irrelevant when players don't want Rambo to exist at all because, as said before, it is against the point of the game mode.

OK, I will buy this... but only as your personal opinion, and not the general opinion of the gaming community, which you constantly try to base your (personal) argument on. I know most of the experienced captain mode players on the EU server and almost all of them can successfully counter Rambo's tactics to varying degrees (some of them sometimes use it themselves). At the same time, I do not hear from them curses against the opponent's Rambo. Based on my experience, Rambo is hated by not very experienced players who do not yet fully understand how to counter not only Rambo tactics, but also some other extraordinary tactics.
And, yes, in my opinion, it only diversifies and, accordingly, decorates the game.
PS: the absurdity is that in order to eliminate some imaginary disbalance in 1 out of 10k games (when 6 DM level rambos play in 1 team), you are asking to limit tactical freedom and variety in all 10k games (looks like a dumb approach when dealing with fluctuations). And still here: are you really sure that eliminating the Rambo will increase your chances of winning in a similar game against such experienced teams as DM, APE or RM?
PS2: as far as I understand, the DM as a team plays in captain mode only during tournaments, the rules of which, among other things, allow an agreement to exclude any tactics.
Thanks for the constructive discussion.

 

[MostBlunted]

 

[Spinozart1]

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