Beta Patch Notes e1.6.2

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five bucks

Squire
I feel like infantry doesn't have a role in bannerlord, it's just there to hang out. Even using them as a SW is questionable because "Why not just more ranged?" or cheaper ranged to be a meat shield that shoots back? Inf doesn't have cheaper daily wages or any other utility. I wish they would add something special for infantry to do in battles.
Here's how I would do it:
* roughly split all infantry in the troop trees (except recruits) into 3 categories- shield infantry who have large shields, sidearms and throwing weapons, pike infantry who have braceable polearms, sidearms and throwing weapons, and damage infantry who have two-handed high damage weapons, sidearms, and small backup shields
* Reduce the amount of melee cavalry or shield infantry in the troop trees, and increase the amount that have braceable polearms

Now you have 7 categories of troop: recruit, shield/heavy infantry, pike infantry, damage/shock infantry, ranged infantry, ranged cavalry, and melee cavalry

* Shield infantry are strong against ranged infantry due to their large shields
* Pike infantry are strong against cavalry due to their braced polearms which can not only stop a cavalry charge (large shields can do this too), but also inflict heavy damage if the cavalry attempt to charge them
* Damage infantry are strong against shield infantry due to their ability to shred shields (already basically a thing in-game)
* Ranged infantry are strong against ranged cavalry due to their superior accuracy and fire rate while on foot (and potentially, more powerful bows/crossbows/throwing weapons as well)
* Ranged cavalry are strong against pike infantry, as the pike infantry have no shield to soak up arrows, and are unable to catch the ranged cavalry
* Melee cavalry are strong against shock infantry, who have no large shield or braceable pike to protect themselves from a cavalry charge

That way every troop type has a role to fill, a strength and a weakness. It's a bit gamey but also fairly logical/intuitive, and not too difficult to make happen with what we have now, just by changing the equipment in the troop trees a bit, making armor work better, and making melee cavalry charges work properly/unable to be stopped by small shields.
 
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Penn

Veteran
Here's how I would do it:
* roughly split all infantry in the troop trees (except recruits) into 3 categories- shield infantry who have large shields, sidearms and throwing weapons, pike infantry who have braceable polearms, sidearms and throwing weapons, and damage infantry who have two-handed high damage weapons, sidearms, and small backup shields
* Reduce the amount of melee cavalry or shield infantry in the troop trees, and increase the amount that have braceable polearms

Now you have 7 categories of troop: recruit, shield/heavy infantry, pike infantry, damage/shock infantry, ranged infantry, ranged cavalry, and melee cavalry

* Shield infantry are strong against ranged infantry due to their shields
* Pike infantry are strong against cavalry due to their braced polearms which can not only stop a cavalry charge (large shields can do this too) but also inflict heavy damage if the cavalry attempt to charge them
* Damage infantry are strong against shield infantry due to their ability to shred shields (already basically a thing in-game)
* Ranged infantry are strong against ranged cavalry due to their superior accuracy and fire rate while on foot (and potentially, more powerful bows/crossbows/throwing weapons as well)
* Ranged cavalry are strong against pike infantry, as the pike infantry have no shield to soak up arrows, and are unable to catch the ranged cavalry
* Melee cavalry are strong against shock infantry, who have no large shield or braceable pike to protect themselves from a cavalry charge

That way every troop type has a role to fill, a strength and a weakness. It's a bit gamey but also fairly logical/intuitive, and not too difficult to make happen with what we have now, just by changing the equipment in the troop trees a bit, making armor work better, and making melee cavalry charges work properly/unable to be stopped by small shields.

Not every faction should have the same type of troops though. Would get boring if every faction had the same troop tree and only different armors and weapons (and skills I guess)
 

five bucks

Squire
Not every faction should have the same type of troops though. Would get boring if every faction had the same troop tree and only different armors and weapons (and skills I guess)
Yep, in my ideal world at T5, each culture troop tree would have one of those troop types they couldn't field, and one they had double of, to show a specialisation.

Vlandia: no ranged cav, two melee cav-one noble and one non noble (game is already like this)
Battania: no melee cav, two shock infantry types (2h axeman and 2h falxman, which is appropriate to their culture description that says they use great swords and great axes)
Aserai: no pike infantry, two ranged infantry types (javelineers and master archers)
Khuzaits: no shield infantry, two ranged cavalry types (one noble and one non noble)
Sturgia: no ranged infantry at T5 (though they get it in lower tiers because it would be weird for them to have zero archers), two types of shield infantry at T5 (heavy axemen and heavy spearmen)
Empire: no shock infantry, two types of pike infantry (menavlatoi and peltasts, I'd change the menavlatoi to pike infantry as that's what they did in real life)

I think this would make factions feel a bit more distinct than they do now
 

Addix95

Recruit
Dear developers, can you add a walking mode for NPCs in battles, it's not comfortable to watch when you lead a squad and go (Caps Lock), and the troops move in jerks. Thanks.
 

Danny5

Sergeant at Arms
Dear developers, can you add a walking mode for NPCs in battles, it's not comfortable to watch when you lead a squad and go (Caps Lock), and the troops move in jerks. Thanks.
They do walk, tell them to do shield wall and charge
 
Yep, in my ideal world at T5, each culture troop tree would have one of those troop types they couldn't field, and one they had double of, to show a specialisation.

Vlandia: no ranged cav, two melee cav-one noble and one non noble (game is already like this)
Battania: no melee cav, two shock infantry types (2h axeman and 2h falxman, which is appropriate to their culture description that says they use great swords and great axes)
Aserai: no pike infantry, two ranged infantry types (javelineers and master archers)
Khuzaits: no shield infantry, two ranged cavalry types (one noble and one non noble)
Sturgia: no ranged infantry at T5 (though they get it in lower tiers because it would be weird for them to have zero archers), two types of shield infantry at T5 (heavy axemen and heavy spearmen)
Empire: no shock infantry, two types of pike infantry (menavlatoi and peltasts, I'd change the menavlatoi to pike infantry as that's what they did in real life)

I think this would make factions feel a bit more distinct than they do now
I understand the need for balancing concerning snowballing, but I personally don’t like to see that much cavalry for battania and sturgia. Different cultures with different army builds would make wars feel less monotone
 
I understand the need for balancing concerning snowballing, but I personally don’t like to see that much cavalry for battania and sturgia. Different cultures with different army builds would make wars feel less monotone
+1. Makes not sense why the faction full of Falx and Bow wielders who prefer ambushes in non-permissible terrain have noble-only Bowmen and field more cavalry than their Byzantine-inspired cousins in the Empire. Same thing for Sturiga, makes no sense why the Kievan Rus / Anglo-Saxon inspired faction has specialized javelineer cavalry in their non-noble line.

Outside of that I agree 100% - I'd rather have each culture be unbalanced and have strengths and weaknesses that also align to their canonical backstory. There needs to be some unit diversity too, Sturgia and Battania feel very homogenous within their own troop trees
 

Addix95

Recruit
They do walk, tell them to do shield wall and charge
I know this, we are not talking about the "shield wall" formation. In general, NPCs in battles do not know how to walk, they only run, and when you order them to follow you, and you go on foot, they move in jerks.
 
I understand the need for balancing concerning snowballing, but I personally don’t like to see that much cavalry for battania and sturgia. Different cultures with different army builds would make wars feel less monotone
I feel like you didn't read his stuff right. He said no melee cavalry for Battania. The only reason we have the weirdness of Battanian Rohirrim going around now is because they have significantly more cavalry in their troop tree than most factions.

I think Sturgia shouldn't be too bad with cavalry though. Maybe not make it a mainstay, but the Kievan Rus were not horseless at all.

Yep, in my ideal world at T5, each culture troop tree would have one of those troop types they couldn't field, and one they had double of, to show a specialisation.

Vlandia: no ranged cav, two melee cav-one noble and one non noble (game is already like this)
Battania: no melee cav, two shock infantry types (2h axeman and 2h falxman, which is appropriate to their culture description that says they use great swords and great axes)
Aserai: no pike infantry, two ranged infantry types (javelineers and master archers)
Khuzaits: no shield infantry, two ranged cavalry types (one noble and one non noble)
Sturgia: no ranged infantry at T5 (though they get it in lower tiers because it would be weird for them to have zero archers), two types of shield infantry at T5 (heavy axemen and heavy spearmen)
Empire: no shock infantry, two types of pike infantry (menavlatoi and peltasts, I'd change the menavlatoi to pike infantry as that's what they did in real life)

I think this would make factions feel a bit more distinct than they do now
Not going to talk about Battania because I think you know my thoughts on that but...

I think your idea for the Khuzaits sounds a bit off. That suggests they would have a shock trooper of some kind, which doesn't sound right for them. If anything, they should have shieldmen, but no shock infantry of any kind.

Due to how the in game menavlions work, I think its not such a big deal for them to have shock troops. In fact, I think the Empire should be unique in that they have a troop for every single role.
 

five bucks

Squire
I feel like you didn't read his stuff right. He said no melee cavalry for Battania. The only reason we have the weirdness of Battanian Rohirrim going around now is because they have significantly more cavalry in their troop tree than most factions.
Good pickup, yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. Battania would only have 1 cav option at T5 (jav cav), Sturgia would have 2 (a regular horse archer and a noble melee cav).
I think Sturgia shouldn't be too bad with cavalry though. Maybe not make it a mainstay, but the Kievan Rus were not horseless at all.
They definitely weren't horseless, agreed. From what I understand, the Kievan Rus around the 1000s primarily fielded infantry spearman militias, some of whom had shields. Cavalry was mostly limited to the druzhina- represented by the existing noble line- but the Rus' also had integrated allied tribes, a confederation of Turkics called the Chernye Klobuky, who were skilled mounted archers and served as soldiers, scouts and border guards. So I would swap the Sturgian Hardened Brigand/Horse Raider for some kind of horse archer in light of that.
I think your idea for the Khuzaits sounds a bit off. That suggests they would have a shock trooper of some kind, which doesn't sound right for them. If anything, they should have shieldmen, but no shock infantry of any kind. Due to how the in game menavlions work, I think its not such a big deal for them to have shock troops. In fact, I think the Empire should be unique in that they have a troop for every single role.
My thought was to give every single culture a totally unique focus area and weakness which no other culture shares to maximise the unique feeling, while also avoiding anything that's too weird in the historical setting. So in order to do that, it's kind of like fitting a puzzle together where some parts are immovable (e.g. Vlandia must have melee cavalry).

Khuzaits make that easy because they're a mix of a lot of different historical cultures, some of which have poorly documented military. The main defining theme is "must have lots of cavalry", but otherwise there is wiggle room. Considering Khuzaits already use glaives, you could have a glaive shock trooper. Doesn't seem like too much of a stretch, basically just a dismounted Khan's Guard. If anything, I find it weird that a cavalry-focused culture has heavy shield troopers that wouldn't work well from horseback.

Re: the Empire, you could do it as the Empire having every type of troop, but I think that lacking shock infantry would force them to change their tactics, would fit their identity as a "cultured" faction that doesn't go for barbaric hacking, would properly represent the actual use of the Byzantine menavlion as a pike, and would make them that little bit more distinct.

This is just my personal ideal, of course, and I'll probably do an xml edit to make it for myself down the track when the game is more established.
 
My thought was to give every single culture a totally unique focus area and weakness which no other culture shares to maximise the unique feeling, while also avoiding anything that's too weird in the historical setting. So in order to do that, it's kind of like fitting a puzzle together where some parts are immovable (e.g. Vlandia must have melee cavalry).

Khuzaits make that easy because they're a mix of a lot of different historical cultures, some of which have poorly documented military. The main defining theme is "must have lots of cavalry", but otherwise there is wiggle room. Considering Khuzaits already use glaives, you could have a glaive shock trooper. Doesn't seem like too much of a stretch, basically just a dismounted Khan's Guard. If anything, I find it weird that a cavalry-focused culture has heavy shield troopers that wouldn't work well from horseback.

Re: the Empire, you could do it as the Empire having every type of troop, but I think that lacking shock infantry would force them to change their tactics, would fit their identity as a "cultured" faction that doesn't go for barbaric hacking, would properly represent the actual use of the Byzantine menavlion as a pike, and would make them that little bit more distinct.

This is just my personal ideal, of course, and I'll probably do an xml edit to make it for myself down the track when the game is more established.
Eh, maybe. Come to think of it, the early Japanese didn't have all that many shields themselves. Still, I feel like the Khuzaits would have shield troops in the vein of a Mongol Kharrash- a mob of expendable troops to throw at the enemy first. The Khuzaits don't have to have good infantry at all- just literal meatshields. I feel it would make sense for them to have shields for that reason.

The Byzantines liked their Varangian Guard though didn't they? Granted, those were a non native unit, but it still gives me the impression that the Empire would see value in everything, just as their historical inspiration did.

I dunno, I feel like shield troops are generally far too foundational to not have.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Battania armies now have tons of archers since notables give noble troops directly. Now they are not making armies with tons of cavalry units and they usually have a lot of archers. This is probably one of the reasons because Battania is not OP anymore in campaign map, they used to obliterate Vlandia and Sturgia with ease some patches ago, while now Vlandia is usually able to defeat Battania.
 
Battania armies now have tons of archers since notables give noble troops directly. Now they are not making armies with tons of cavalry units and they usually have a lot of archers. This is probably one of the reasons because Battania is not OP anymore in campaign map, they used to obliterate Vlandia and Sturgia with ease some patches ago, while now Vlandia is usually able to defeat Battania.
Seems like it from my recent play around.

I really don't like this though. I believe nobles should be difficult to amass, otherwise why bother with any other troops? I also sure as hell don't want to be fighting a big mob of Fian Champions.

Honestly, I feel TW's handling of the lack of Battanian Archers is the same as their handling of nerfing horse archers. Not well thought out, especially when there are better options.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Seems like it from my recent play around.

I really don't like this though. I believe nobles should be difficult to amass, otherwise why bother with any other troops? I also sure as hell don't want to be fighting a big mob of Fian Champions.

Honestly, I feel TW's handling of the lack of Battanian Archers is the same as their handling of nerfing horse archers. Not well thought out, especially when there are better options.
I also disliked the change before but now, I am finding the result ok in most cases. Facing a full fians armies is rare because the AI tends to lose battles and recruit low level noble units again. So you usually see some Fians/Fians Champions, while a lot of lower level noble units.

Same happens with Vlandia, you can see a lot of Squires, Gallants, and Knights, while not much Champions/Banner Knights. While low level noble units are still “nobles”, they just feel/look like regular units, so this change has been something good for the gameplay in my view.

The only negative thing is that now Khuzaits have more Khan’s Guard units which are OP as hell. It is not a huge problem because vs win the AI is not really too difficult, but these Khan’s Guards are able to obliterate everything.
 

five bucks

Squire
The only negative thing is that now Khuzaits have more Khan’s Guard units which are OP as hell
Aside from fixing armor, which I know you definitely support, I think Khan's Guard need to be significantly worse at melee to balance them. It makes no sense that they're the best ranged cav in the game AND excellent melee cav at the same time.

They should be the weakest melee combatants out of all the noble units. Though still able to hold their own against lower tier melee units, of course.
 
I also disliked the change before but now, I am finding the result ok in most cases. Facing a full fians armies is rare because the AI tends to lose battles and recruit low level noble units again. So you usually see some Fians/Fians Champions, while a lot of lower level noble units.

Same happens with Vlandia, you can see a lot of Squires, Gallants, and Knights, while not much Champions/Banner Knights. While low level noble units are still “nobles”, they just feel/look like regular units, so this change has been something good for the gameplay in my view.

The only negative thing is that now Khuzaits have more Khan’s Guard units which are OP as hell. It is not a huge problem because vs win the AI is not really too difficult, but these Khan’s Guards are able to obliterate everything.
Eh, again I still prefer nobles to feel noble. The bulk of Vlandian Cavalry should be their Vanguards, with Knights as a noticeable accent to their strength.

Honestly, just rearrange the troop trees to accomodate for new types. Remove Battanian Horsemen, add longbowmen in their place and you get a similar result, except your nobles still feel special.
 

Pejot

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
I've got a strange bug (or it was intentional).

When I put one companion in cavalry group and second companion in another cavalry group (light cavalry for example) together with cavalry units the unit is split even between 2 groups at the start of battle. For example I have 20 stadion knights in light cav group together with one companion and a single other companion in group 3. At the start of battle the knights are split between both groups 10 in cav and 10 in light cav.
 

dannazgu

Sergeant at Arms
Good pickup, yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. Battania would only have 1 cav option at T5 (jav cav), Sturgia would have 2 (a regular horse archer and a noble melee cav).

They definitely weren't horseless, agreed. From what I understand, the Kievan Rus around the 1000s primarily fielded infantry spearman militias, some of whom had shields. Cavalry was mostly limited to the druzhina- represented by the existing noble line- but the Rus' also had integrated allied tribes, a confederation of Turkics called the Chernye Klobuky, who were skilled mounted archers and served as soldiers, scouts and border guards. So I would swap the Sturgian Hardened Brigand/Horse Raider for some kind of horse archer in light of that.

My thought was to give every single culture a totally unique focus area and weakness which no other culture shares to maximise the unique feeling, while also avoiding anything that's too weird in the historical setting. So in order to do that, it's kind of like fitting a puzzle together where some parts are immovable (e.g. Vlandia must have melee cavalry).

Khuzaits make that easy because they're a mix of a lot of different historical cultures, some of which have poorly documented military. The main defining theme is "must have lots of cavalry", but otherwise there is wiggle room. Considering Khuzaits already use glaives, you could have a glaive shock trooper. Doesn't seem like too much of a stretch, basically just a dismounted Khan's Guard. If anything, I find it weird that a cavalry-focused culture has heavy shield troopers that wouldn't work well from horseback.

Re: the Empire, you could do it as the Empire having every type of troop, but I think that lacking shock infantry would force them to change their tactics, would fit their identity as a "cultured" faction that doesn't go for barbaric hacking, would properly represent the actual use of the Byzantine menavlion as a pike, and would make them that little bit more distinct.

This is just my personal ideal, of course, and I'll probably do an xml edit to make it for myself down the track when the game is more established.
Your ideas for distinct culture would be nice, but there's one thing... They take inspiration in real kingdoms.

So, putting the Empire as all spear, would take the idea from the Byzantine Empire, which held the heavy infantry legionaries as their standard troops besides cataphracts. The Empire taking inspiration i the real world, they were mostly jack of all trades, they used everything on their legions, but heavy infantry were their culture heritage from Rome.

Vlandias have meele I guess, the lance units usually go for using sword when in close combats

I just feel odd about the sturgians using horse archers, since the use of horse arches, if they look for real world was only integrated well ahead in the Empire of the Rus

I just wished they made a special troops for each faction, some kind only the ruler would have access too: Praetorian guard, varagian guard, Scholae Palatinae... are those i remember
 
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