Beta Patch Notes e1.6.0

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Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
Lol RIP @danEN

The mod team ain't takin no bull**** this week
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miqaeli123

Regular
i deleted the game after all of this long way I seeing all dev blogs all of the years I was a big fan of bannerlord and 100% disappointed goodbye guys and my loved friend yavus armagan
 

chillsing

Recruit
Maybe a thread or a dev update on where sieges are right now explaining the challenges and the coming fixes would be helpful. Just an idea.
Yes, it would be much appreciated. Because right now all we can do is speculate. Like I think they use some form of flowfield ai during field engagement then units are all given order to select enemy unit by proximity and stay locked on until it revert back to flowfield and repeat process at intervals regardless what's happening. Its just so weird to see units walk by and ignore each other than suddenly laser guided to one.
 
Maybe a thread or a dev update on where sieges are right now explaining the challenges and the coming fixes would be helpful. Just an idea.
This would be huge for community confidence. Just give us something other than "we're working on it" or "we're looking into it". Give us a glimpse into the progress of that, please!
 

bonerstorm

Veteran
This week I clocked 1000 hours played in Bannerlord and a big birthday irl. I am a happy man and with this is mind lets check 1.6.0.

The last couple days I relax and play test some 1.6.0. which is showing better performance.

Running around and testing Smith & Trade, I noticed King Dethert going to war with a great army and decided to follow him and sure enough there are still starving armies for no reason. The Army soon broke up and unlike earlier there were no wounded instead it seems soldiers desert the army when going hungry.

I reloaded the save from 10 min earlier and now joined King Dethert Army in order to feed them and see what they were up to.

We make it to Varcheg (because that makes sense as Vlandias first target?), We start the Siege but King Dethert leads the attack before destroying enemy siege engines and then we end up with having to climb the ladders but due to superstition the soldiers will only use ONE ladder at the time.

In the back our Vlandian Crossbowmen stand in big chunks on the field and get shot to pieces while very few are shooting back.

On top of all this disaster of a siege the removal of the option of Allied party damage taken, then there is nothing to do in order to save an Army from what is clearly in great part a TaleWorld error and not just King Detrimentals Strategy and Tactics.

I just exited the game, watching a huge field army get picked off one by one by militia men is beyond my patience. We might have won in the end after losing 1000 sitting ducks but 1000 hours played and 1 year has past since sieges were this broken.

So a few questions.
A: Why are the Armies still starving when the Towns and Villages are full of food.
B: I remember there was a time last year when the army could use more than one ladder, what happened?
C: Why are the rest of the Crossbowmen bunched up behind 3 guys using a palisade?
D: Cant you give each soldiers a ticket from the start of the siege, that once he reach the wall he is going to use the ladder that his ticket states?
E: Open field battles have also been ruined by losing control of my army after the enemy flee, any chance this is a bug that is getting fixed?

Sincerly
10/10 would refuse to play Bannerlord but laugh reading your dramatic retelling again.
New immersive rpg mechanic: sometimes they go up the ladder.... sometimes they don't! Try pushing them around with the horse in front of the ladder they're stuck at. I am not kidding.
OH LORD.
I know nobody probably shares this opinion but I kinda like troops just doing their own thing at the end of the battle.
Honestly I agree. Historically, routs were almost always followed by an undisciplined charge by the attackers - which is why false routs were so effective and why Hastings was a Norman victory, whether or not the route was genuine or false.

I've heard people have had problems where the enemy kinda half-retreats and you instantly and forever lose all control of your troops while enemy reinforcements keep pouring in. THAT is bull.
😀 teach my how to make millions without smiting and trade okay
Agreed. @Apocal I think you've demonstrated a much deeper tolerance for grind than most of us. Even while cheesing smithed javelins, it's taken me a mind-bogglingly boring amount of time to get 1M denars. Once I've done so and bought the loyalty of an opposing clan for something like 2.3M denars (after a charm minigame where relation and personality seems to have zero effect), I've often found that they switched right back to their original faction a week or so later, taking their fiefs with them. This... is total bull. TBF, I was playing on prior patches but it doesn't seem like it's changed since then - and def not for the better if it has.

WB's faction-switching mechanic had its issues, but it was infinitely more rewarding and immersive than the BL status quo.

OH! You're just ravaging towns - a mechanic I haven't seen yet. I guess that makes sense.
You can wonder why Archon wants about 2M (estimated, we do not see exact amount) even your relation is 98, each castle's value is about 300-500K and leaving 2 of them will cost him 1M also you are a weak kingdom you want from him to leave his strong faction (with 7 towns & 9 castles & 5600 strength) and join your weak kingdom which have only 1 castle and 700 strength and maybe his relation is also good with his king.
This is somewhat reasonable, but there are limits to this.

Getting a fief in BL isn't like buying an annuity. Border fiefs change hands very often and, even with a bitter rivalry with their liege while vastly outnumbered in a defensive war while I'm on the way to besiege their fief, I've seen lords demand exorbitant sums for switching (past patches, to be fair). I'm not sure if this is an option in the new release without the max-Trade perk, but being able to trade ANY fief for someone's loyalty should definitely ease the pain a bit.

Another thing that would be nice is the option to try to buy their loyalty while besieging their fief - in effect negotiating their surrender so they keep their territory. I've seen the AI do this on my side and it's frustrating as hell: I've paid millions to convert a foreign clan and watched them switch right back the moment their former liege's army besieges one of their fiefs. It's one of the many anti-QOL features (like no more waiting at your hall to ask to join you) that makes late-game play very annoying.
 
Getting a fief in BL isn't like buying an annuity. Border fiefs change hands very often and, even with a bitter rivalry with their liege while vastly outnumbered in a defensive war while I'm on the way to besiege their fief, I've seen lords demand exorbitant sums for switching (past patches, to be fair). I'm not sure if this is an option in the new release without the max-Trade perk, but being able to trade ANY fief for someone's loyalty should definitely ease the pain a bit.

Another thing that would be nice is the option to try to buy their loyalty while besieging their fief - in effect negotiating their surrender so they keep their territory. I've seen the AI do this on my side and it's frustrating as hell: I've paid millions to convert a foreign clan and watched them switch right back the moment their former liege's army besieges one of their fiefs. It's one of the many anti-QOL features (like no more waiting at your hall to ask to join you) that makes late-game play very annoying.
The lords that are asking for huge sums do so because they do not want to join you. They still don't really want to be with you afterwards (though you get some relation bonus upon defection). This is why some attempts are now outright rejected - because it's frustrating for players to spend 6 million just to be betrayed the next day. But mexxico can explain this in greater detail than me.
 

Apocal

Master Knight
TBF, I was playing on prior patches but it doesn't seem like it's changed since then - and def not for the better if it has.
It has changed. Defections are rarer and to get a cheap lord over you need them to be broke, fiefless and have something less than stellar relations with their liege. The first two generally go hand in hand and with the right combination of traits, 150+ Charm and really good (40+) relations, getting through the persuasion check is fairly easy.

After that, it only costs 120-400K.

The million dollar clans I recruit come with towns and/or don't really like me.

Edit: ahahaahaha they finally patched one of my cheese strats, maybe not in this patch but it used to be that in a clan-only army there was no loot division, which meant every one of your clan parties took down a full share of loot. the ai parties would instantly convert to denars, which went into your pocket after the party leader had 10K, which made running your clan members around and brawling lords one of the best moneymaking activities in the game.

Now it gets split based on contribution.
 
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Gricken

Veteran
Is there any plans to give us more to do with fiefs? Upgrading villages or training castle militia or having patrols (these are just off the top of my head) would give players (and possibly the ai depending on what you do with it) a lot more incentive to protect their own region, and add another layer of strategy as well. Such as lords being worried about their own well off, upgraded, fief being raided and so breaking off from the army that was created to fight over some barren villages on the border.
 

bonerstorm

Veteran
The lords that are asking for huge sums do so because they do not want to join you. They still don't really want to be with you afterwards (though you get some relation bonus upon defection). This is why some attempts are now outright rejected - because it's frustrating for players to spend 6 million just to be betrayed the next day. But mexxico can explain this in greater detail than me.
I appreciate the explanation and look forward to details from @mexxico - but I also think that this approach is unwise.

The lord not liking you or not wanting to give up their station shouldn't primarily be a bonus on the cost of defection - it should be a malus on persuasion chance. Sure, most players just savescum through the persuasion minigame because it was (is?) an unrepeatable single point of failure, but that's more of a factor of the minigame not being fun than anything else and the game shouldn't be balanced around that.

Charm - like most of the noncombat skills - already feels kind of pointless, especially since it's difficult to level in the early game.

The only late-game use for it is to convert clans and it's frustrating if the "What I'm giving up by leaving my faction" calculation is abstracted more into the cash transaction than the player's skills.

This is especially frustrating when late-game AI seems to swap factions with no transaction - for all factions except the player's.

Whereas late-game Warband was a challenging struggle to maintain relations with jealous nobles in a downward slide as you gain more territory by feasting and questing and rescuing and outright bribery, Bannerlord abstracts that to save-scumming + cash transaction... to the point where it feels kind of pointless and boring to ever deal with more than a handful of clans in your faction.
 
In regards to lords not wanting to allow a charm check, I read @mexxico post 7 times and a few words I had with him but I am sure I will get a little bit wrong here but the premise is this. He has fiefs and it's valued at X. Then there are a bunch of modifiers, like your relation vs his relation with current ruler, your clans total fiefs and strength vs current kingdom and those are used as modifiers to X. Then if you are at peace it will cost more since he will have to give it up where if at war he will keep them so a bit cheaper but can be another modifier to where the fiefs are located if far behind enemy lines(That is why he will open charm check during war and not at peace since he is bringing fiefs in war time). After all that, he said you need to have 5 times X to get the charm check dialogue, they plan to change it to 3 times X + 250k which is still a lot. I know I am probably not totally right. But it appears the code is really long to determine X and he won't get an exact formula given but 3 times X + 250k still seems like too much
 

bonerstorm

Veteran
In regards to lords not wanting to allow a charm check, I read @mexxico post 7 times and a few words I had with him but I am sure I will get a little bit wrong here but the premise is this. He has fiefs and it's valued at X. Then there are a bunch of modifiers, like your relation vs his relation with current ruler, your clans total fiefs and strength vs current kingdom and those are used as modifiers to X. Then if you are at peace it will cost more since he will have to give it up where if at war he will keep them so a bit cheaper but can be another modifier to where the fiefs are located if far behind enemy lines(That is why he will open charm check during war and not at peace since he is bringing fiefs in war time). After all that, he said you need to have 5 times X to get the charm check dialogue, they plan to change it to 3 times X + 250k which is still a lot. I know I am probably not totally right. But it appears the code is really long to determine X and he won't get an exact formula given but 3 times X + 250k still seems like too much
I understand the situation. I'm just saying it's a bad idea and should change back to something more like it was in WB/VC.

Conversations shouldn't be gated based on the size of your bank account. They should be gated based on your relationship level and charm ability.

I recently did a run where I played a CHA-focused charming trademaster and accumulated tens of millions of denars and straight-up bought a fief without even joining a faction. I then joined a faction, got even more fiefs and proceeded to buy like 1/5 of the map wholesale. I did this without ever having to build relation with anyone or make strategic clan alliances or do quests for anyone or even fight in any wars.

It was a very effective strategy given the current BL meta. It was also boring as piss.

That's why I'm saying that lord relation and charm skill should matter again. The "your gold-pile must be at least this high to ride the game" gating is a perfect example of why people say this game is "soulless".
 
I understand the situation. I'm just saying it's a bad idea and should change back to something more like it was in WB/VC.

Conversations shouldn't be gated based on the size of your bank account. They should be gated based on your relationship level and charm ability.

I recently did a run where I played a CHA-focused charming trademaster and accumulated tens of millions of denars and straight-up bought a fief without even joining a faction. I then joined a faction, got even more fiefs and proceeded to buy like 1/5 of the map wholesale. I did this without ever having to build relation with anyone or make strategic clan alliances or do quests for anyone or even fight in any wars.

It was a very effective strategy given the current BL meta. It was also boring as piss.

That's why I'm saying that lord relation and charm skill should matter again. The "your gold-pile must be at least this high to ride the game" gating is a perfect example of why people say this game is "soulless".
This goes to another issue I have with bannerlord and that is transparency. How does the lord know exactly how much money i have. How does the AI know exactly when their army has more strength than my army and attack. Too many things are exactly known when in reality it is never that way. How do I know exactly how many troops are in an army, and exactly what those troops are so execpt for tiers can you can calculate exactly when you have the advantage. There needs to be a bit more hidden values in things especially when it comes to the AI, they seem to always know when it is best to attack and if not for superior tactics we would lose every defended battle. They are not major issues at all, but things like that and what we are discussing now can give "character" to Bannerlord, something I thing long time players know that "warband" has still to this day, it has it's own "character" that will never be taken away. This is why I say you should listen to your community more since they will be the ones to stay with something longer they love and hold onto that in my case all that nostalgia will be immortalized on Youtube for anyone to see at anytime even years from now generating a following that can carry over to future projects, like from Warband to Bannerlord, FYI I discovered Warband by accident from a Youtube video many years ago and is why I am still here, that 1 video many years ago led to a sale of Bannerlord many many years later, I guess what I am rambling about, is give Bannerlord "character" so people remember it for many years down the line and it can bring a fanbase and can help inspire future projects.
Do I love Bannerlord, approaching 3,500 hours played, yes I love it. But I know you guys can make it even better, I believe you can
And this contradicts what we are talking about wanting to know the exact formula for recruiting lords but that goes to the fact that we are frustrated that is costs so much over what a lord wants to get even 1. If it doesn't make sense we want to know why, if it makes sense we don't need to know, that is the difference between the 2
 

NotSoSerious

Recruit
@Dejan , Hello can I recommend changing Village production icons appear upon pressing ALT, its only useful in certain situations and wont overload map appearance, thx
 

Fahai Nolove

Recruit
Hi,
Is that just me or everyone else have that as well, the game constantly crashes when trying to sort items in the shop interface after updating to 1.6.0?
 
@Flesson19 @bonerstorm @Duh @mexxico
What gets me annoyed with the vassal recruitment set up, is that to reasonably get vassals, you have to be so powerful on your own that you basically don't need any vassals. If I want to make a Kingdom I have to take lots of fiefs first and have lots of good garrison so I have a high power rating. To do this means I'm stomping out the AI as a lone clan. To create poor and fief less clans to recruit I have to take thier fief and beat them over and over, releasing for + relation. So when I have all the power on paper and the money from war to switch on "Make kingdom" and start getting lords and turning castles over to them...... it's like I already won and the vassals aren't needed. I already had to do the hard part myself. When you want vassals is when you're small and you don't know how to deal with AI armies and s tuff, not when you're the biggest badist faction already.

Contrast this to what the game presents new players with being required to start a Kingdom "have 100 troops" "have 1 fief" "Clan rank 4" "Be independent" that's really not at all enough to get vassals and make a viable kingdom. Seriously, every day people try to make a kingdom and get in trouble and are asking online for help "why won't anyone join me" "why does the enemy want so much money for peace" "There's an army every 2 days what do I do?".

Too many things are exactly known when in reality it is never that way. How do I know exactly how many troops are in an army, and exactly what those troops are so execpt for tiers can you can calculate exactly when you have the advantage.
Yeah, it would make good skill effects to scouting or roguery to give you more information if it was hidden by default.

The bots even know what villages and towns have food or recruit able troops and will change thier destination if you go ahead of them and buy all the food and such.

Edit: ahahaahaha they finally patched one of my cheese strats, maybe not in this patch but it used to be that in a clan-only army there was no loot division, which meant every one of your clan parties took down a full share of loot. the ai parties would instantly convert to denars, which went into your pocket after the party leader had 10K, which made running your clan members around and brawling lords one of the best moneymaking activities in the game.

Now it gets split based on contribution.
So we got triple (or more) loot before when we had a clan army? I knew it was smooth sailing but I never realized it was a bug.
 

bonerstorm

Veteran
Contrast this to what the game presents new players with being required to start a Kingdom "have 100 troops" "have 1 fief" "Clan rank 4" "Be independent" that's really not at all enough to get vassals and make a viable kingdom. Seriously, every day people try to make a kingdom and get in trouble and are asking online for help "why won't anyone join me" "why does the enemy want so much money for peace" "There's an army every 2 days what do I do?".
It's so depressing reading those posts and even worse when the responses are filled with snark or even misinformation from less experienced gamers who don't know the specific ways that BL is busted as well as how to game the system.

Every time I have to respond with "Oh this mechanic is broken" or "You have to do X to compensate" or "You really can't do Y unless you spend a couple in-game years doing Z", a little part of my soul dies.

I don't know how many times I've had to tell people that the personality trait system is basically a half-implemented vestigial organ and that's it's impossible - for instance - to level Calculating since the only way to do it is by convincing FIFTY clans to join your faction and spend 6-7 figures in denars plus a savescum minigame each time to do it.
 

mexxico

Developer
@Flesson19 @bonerstorm @Duh @mexxico
What gets me annoyed with the vassal recruitment set up, is that to reasonably get vassals, you have to be so powerful on your own that you basically don't need any vassals. If I want to make a Kingdom I have to take lots of fiefs first and have lots of good garrison so I have a high power rating. To do this means I'm stomping out the AI as a lone clan. To create poor and fief less clans to recruit I have to take thier fief and beat them over and over, releasing for + relation. So when I have all the power on paper and the money from war to switch on "Make kingdom" and start getting lords and turning castles over to them...... it's like I already won and the vassals aren't needed. I already had to do the hard part myself. When you want vassals is when you're small and you don't know how to deal with AI armies and s tuff, not when you're the biggest badist faction already.

Is it realistic other clans want to leave their kingdom and join you when you have no fief and less power and they already have fiefs in their kingdom? What is benefit for them at this deal? They act realistic and want more in that case. You have to spend some time and find clans which has no good relationships with their king and economically weak (you can see that info at encylopedia) and fiefless. All are not must of course but money you need to spend changes according to how many of these are checked also your relation with that clan leader and members are also important too.

Another option is hiring minor clans and another option will be added later and player will be able to create new clans from his companions (of course limited to time / player clan tier / etc).

I think they will be enough for player to cope with kingdoms if right decisions are taken. Of course this will not be easy task and it's normal players are getting hard days when they are first initiated their kingdom.

Also about other topic. If they will want from you too much money after persuasion steps compared to your current financial situation they directly reject to save player from time. Thats all. Of course maybe with future additions denars opponent clan want to change sides would change according to persuasion steps however currently that system is not working like that so best is breaking dialog at first if final amount is too much for player. Later if persuasion steps effects money opponent will want this initial breaking dialog conditions can be changed.
 
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Is it realistic other clans want to leave their kingdom and join you when you have no fief and less power and they already have fiefs in their kingdom?
No it's not realistic and it makes sense to me. I always have a smooth time going from lone clan to kingdom because I've learned how to prepare everything. However the "make a kingdom " quest misleads players into thinking they will do well as a kingdom in a grossly underpowered form. I think this should be replaced with a more thorough quest line with many steps that actually teaches a new player how to build relations, save money, what power means in the war score and other so things they can enjoy becoming a kingdom and not rage quit (or take evil lessons from me on how to overpower the AI alone). It would probably be better if it wasn't the 'dragon banner' quest with it's weird side quests, but just guide to prepare to make a kingdom and get vassals.

Edit: And to explain my frustration, a big part is I feel the vassals are not very useful to me. I have to do all that work alone to make the big attractive safe place for them to want to join. Then after they join they just do as they like and I still have to do everything and stop all the armies, do issues all over and then they make endless wars and the game just goes on like that forever (until a new update and I start over). I feel like there's no payoff to it because I could just make peace as lone clan and not have to fight and have my areas be safe. By taking in vassals I am doomed to endless wars and I can't make any vassals patrol fiefs or target an army or do anything good at all. Sure, they will expand and eventually we can take the map, but it doesn't feel like I'm in command and using my strategy to do it. If feels basically the same as being a vassal.

Another option is hiring minor clans and another option will be added later and player will be able to create new clans from his companions (of course limited to time / player clan tier / etc).
This is amazing! I don't know if this is news or if I missed it, but that's something many people really want in the game! That will be a big improvement I'm sure!
 
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