Beta Patch Notes e1.4.1

正在查看此主题的用户

The idea of war tribute / reparations for peace sounds good on paper, but I really don't see how it helps address the simulation's current issues. If anything, the winner will be the recipient of (perhaps juicy) daily payments, with which to further upgrade their army and stomp someone else - until the payments end. From the perspective of simulation health, this seems to me a strictly inferior approach to the simple solution from 1.3: forcing a 25-day truce without any monetary exchange, so the loser can lick their wounds and maybe come back stronger next time.

The problem is game-ending snowballs. Winning as a snowball is dull. Even losing to a snowball is dull: sure, you might turn the tide, but they've probably crushed most other factions already into dust, so your playthrough's scope for an exciting emergent narrative is pretty much over. So, you restart.

What should be some of the priorities for keeping the simulation engaging?
  1. Internal factors within a faction, to dent snowballing: think "Corruption" mechanic from something like Total War: Three Kingdoms, or indeed earlier iterations of Civ (e.g. Civ3). In its simplest form, the more fiefs a kingdom owns, the greater the percentage of tax that goes to waste in corruption or logistical overhead. Assuming every AI faction obeys proper economic rules (I am led to believe they do, from developer posts in these forums), that corruption percentage (adequately tuned) should significantly dent the power creep of larger factions. I never much liked Corruption in TW:3K, but judged purely on the gameplay impact, it did exactly what it needed to do: it put the brakes on a faction's ability to spiral upwards. Bannerlord needs band aids to fix simulation health, this is one of the simplest ones I can think of.

    I can imagine other internal factors worth pursuing: claimants to the throne like in Warband, or internal revolts spawning new factions when one grows too large. These are more complex to tune correctly, and done wrong will also lead to farcical simulations. Definitely would love to see these features eventually, but development time dictates that this should be looked at later.

  2. Diplomatic factors between factions, to dent snowballing: basic diplomacy AI capable of recognising rising threats and acting out of self-preservation. Think "Great Power Aversion" from Total War games or "Coalition" mechanic from EU4: a system so factions simultaneously recognise the need to contain an out-of-control neighbour, by ceasing their own hostilities indefinitely and banding together to ensure containment. In particular, EU4 modelled "Aggressive Expansion" as a metric of a faction's belligerence - a metric that degraded slowly, over many years. A faction might lock in territorial gains over time, but it would be years before their past aggression was water under the bridge. If they expanded too fast, took too many fiefs too quickly, the coalition mechanic would kick in and cut them down to size. The political borders of Calradia would change slowly over years, even decades. This 'slow drift' has to be baked into the simulation, otherwise the entire legacy/inheritance system is pointless and misleading.

  3. "Events" or externalities to dent snowballing: this could be any of a list of events designed to draw the attention and resources of the snowballer. Perhaps their kingdom has become too affluent: bandit lords from all over Calradia converge on their kingdom, forming great bandit armies (with maybe unique T6 loot, as a further incentive to explore this lategame experience) to ravage their villages and siege their fiefs. Perhaps a great Crusade is called, by a faction opposed to the snowballer: well-supplied, high-tier armies of the snowballer's nemesis converge on their lands.
A flipside of these anti-snowball measures: the game should no longer punish small kingdoms. In grand strategy, you do not mind the small neighbours! They are an irrelevance, but may make themselves useful if they align against your enemies. Likewise here, a player-made, small kingdom should not be the immediate target of all war declarations. Their "Great Power Aversion" is minimal, their "Aggressive Expansion", initially at least, is zero. If the player has carefully lain the groundwork (built up positive relations with neighbours + high enough Clan Rank that kingship does not ruffle feathers), their early kingdom life should be a breeze, with widespread hostility only manifesting once their expansionism has soured those relations.

We need to see this not with a player point of view but with the AI point of view.

I don't know how it work exactly but let's say that for declaring war, on side of the equation must be superior to the other like :

"Our force" + "Benefit of war" > "Their forces" + "Risk of war"

It's completely arbitrary and i don't even know if it works like that but it's for the sake of example. So with the 25 days truce period, the only changing variable would be the force comparison and the equation will be rolled on the 25day of each truce.
With a tribute the equation is changing after the first war.

"Our force" + "Benefit of war" > "Their forces" + "Risk of war" + "Value of daily tributes"

It makes the peace/war declaration more dynamic as there is more variable to take into account for the AI than an arbitrary 25days were both side recover (because the winning side lose troops aswell during a war), and i don't see why the potential truce period couldn't be more than 25 days if the first war (like it usually is) result in the lost of only one or two settlements.
What could be nice would be to mix those solutions with a minimal truce duration of XX days.

So yes the payments can probably be detrimental to the loosing side, but as much as getting declared war every 25days after the previous finished.
The problem of this solution is just the amount of tribute paid that need to be enough for the truce to last, but not high enough to bankrupt the kingdom or preventing it to recover, i think it's potentially better than the arbitrary 25 days if the amount is the right one.
 
This does not seem like an improvement at all, horrible to say the least. How will army composition look in AI armies after a while? Mixed up armies indistinguishable from faction to faction. If they wanted to help AI recruitment, just give them a recruit bonus in home territory. Alternatively, let the AI recruit own faction troops from anywhere.

Army composition is not problem it already changes when a kingdom capture settlements from other culture. By the way AI can only recruit first slot from other neutral kingdom settlements.

It should be allowed otherwise when a faction lose all their settlements or most of them they cannot come back again. They have limited settlements so they have very limited recruit sources all lords stuck in their last settlements and wait all day. I think even this is allowed at 1.4.1 still factions cannot come back I will examine other problems.
 
Mexxico - will there be casus belli in the future? it's really needed. I assume it will be added, as it was in warband? Could you please tell us?
 
Mexxico - will there be casus belli in the future? it's really needed. I assume it will be added, as it was in warband? Could you please tell us?
I agree. It is not a valid reason to declare war to a kingdom just because it is weaker. Casus belli is a must. I wish for everything in CK2 to be implemented in this game, that is my dream.

Claims first!
 
What if the AI lords forced enemy recruits into their armies like the PC can with Take Hostile Action: Forcibly Recruit Troops?

I could see cruel and dishonorable lords doing that (rarely and in times of need, like trying to beat an eny and a neutral village is right there) to neutral villages, Creating a cassus belli
 
We need to see this not with a player point of view but with the AI point of view.

I don't know how it work exactly but let's say that for declaring war, on side of the equation must be superior to the other like :

"Our force" + "Benefit of war" > "Their forces" + "Risk of war"

It's completely arbitrary and i don't even know if it works like that but it's for the sake of example. So with the 25 days truce period, the only changing variable would be the force comparison and the equation will be rolled on the 25day of each truce.
With a tribute the equation is changing after the first war.

"Our force" + "Benefit of war" > "Their forces" + "Risk of war" + "Value of daily tributes"

It makes the peace/war declaration more dynamic as there is more variable to take into account for the AI than an arbitrary 25days were both side recover (because the winning side lose troops aswell during a war), and i don't see why the potential truce period couldn't be more than 25 days if the first war (like it usually is) result in the lost of only one or two settlements.
What could be nice would be to mix those solutions with a minimal truce duration of XX days.

So yes the payments can probably be detrimental to the loosing side, but as much as getting declared war every 25days after the previous finished.
The problem of this solution is just the amount of tribute paid that need to be enough for the truce to last, but not high enough to bankrupt the kingdom or preventing it to recover, i think it's potentially better than the arbitrary 25 days if the amount is the right one.

I'm still unclear how a tributes system (even a long-lasting one, longer than 25 days) would help counter snowballing. Any meaningful monetary exchange from the loser to the winner will only serve to strengthen the winner's hand in their next war. I could easily see a situation where a snowballer is whack-a-moling each of their neighbours in turn, extracting tributes from each. Assuming that these tribute-bearing treaties last 25 days by default, this is still strictly worse, for the loser, than a mandatory 25-day treaty with no monetary exchange (namely the 1.3 / 1.4.0 system). I have to imagine, too, that a loser paying tribute regularly will become easy pickings for a belligerent third party, leading to losers vanishing from the map even faster.
 
isnt it supposed to come with the tradeing perk/levels?

You get nothing from the level 25 perk currently, at lvl 75 perks the markers show in the shops, but for your inventory, I have gotten to level 125 trade and still not working. Would be nice if they fix problems they break. I mean it was broke with 1.4.1 and it's past 1.4.2 and not a word, they messed it up when they patched for trade exp to carry over when you save and exit. As I have said it is a non critical issue but one that is kind of crucial to help keep track of profits and a huge perk for trader builds. Little more important than adding new chairs, huh?
Wouldn't be that bad if they actually had a page that was updated with bugs, crashes, and problems so people could see and track problems, instead it's we break something and keep quiet and let you know nothing.
I bought the game, I give detailed messages when game crashes so they know what happened and hopefully fix, I check the website for information and try to give updates with issues I detect, all I ask is what I think most of us want, some communication or information. I don't think that is a lot to ask for.
 
最后编辑:
Thanks!

Sounds more like the 1.4.1 update :sad:

Greetings Warriors! A new patch is on its way, here's a small sneak peek for you:

? Sandbox Kingdom creation is here with its own UI
? We're changing the way auto-battles are calculated
? Don't worry, we've not forgotten to fix the chairs in the Khuzait keeps!

Stay tuned for more details about this upcoming update!

They are also making fun of us now....
 
Army composition is not problem it already changes when a kingdom capture settlements from other culture. By the way AI can only recruit first slot from other neutral kingdom settlements.

It should be allowed otherwise when a faction lose all their settlements or most of them they cannot come back again. They have limited settlements so they have very limited recruit sources all lords stuck in their last settlements and wait all day. I think even this is allowed at 1.4.1 still factions cannot come back I will examine other problems.

Army composition is already a problem, as you said, this is just making it worse.

Recruits from foreign territories could be outfitted with the gear of the faction that recruits them. Ingame translation: Sturgian AI lord recruits from Battanian village, the game checks that an AI lord is doing the recruiting and the recruits become Sturgian.
 
Army composition is already a problem, as you said, this is just making it worse.

Recruits from foreign territories could be outfitted with the gear of the faction that recruits them. Ingame translation: Sturgian AI lord recruits from Battanian village, the game checks that an AI lord is doing the recruiting and the recruits become Sturgian.

I don´t like your suggestion.
 
Recruits from foreign territories could be outfitted with the gear of the faction that recruits them. Ingame translation: Sturgian AI lord recruits from Battanian village, the game checks that an AI lord is doing the recruiting and the recruits become Sturgian.

I would prefer a different scenario: option to upgrade <recruit A> to <recruit B> where B is the party leader's (and/or kingdom's) culture (or just progress in the tree of culture A of course).
 
mixed formation, vote bug, stupid siege ai, bugged weapon speed, quest bug, bugged formation, bugged prosperity.
1.4.1 worst beta ever.
The hope for the game is fading away. Is the next version better?
 
 
I'm still unclear how a tributes system (even a long-lasting one, longer than 25 days) would help counter snowballing. Any meaningful monetary exchange from the loser to the winner will only serve to strengthen the winner's hand in their next war.

The problem with snowballing is the repeated assault on the same weakened enemy, loosing a war once trigger tribute thus give less reason to re-attack the same target or the tribute is lost. On the other hand the 25 days truce don't get any reason to AI not to attack again the same target.
So the winner will most likely be strengthen from the tribute but will pick someone else to attack, which is good i believe.

I could easily see a situation where a snowballer is whack-a-moling each of their neighbours in turn, extracting tributes from each. Assuming that these tribute-bearing treaties last 25 days by default, this is still strictly worse, for the loser, than a mandatory 25-day treaty with no monetary exchange (namely the 1.3 / 1.4.0 system).

Here is a screenshot i took from someone talking about Sturgia in another thread : https://ibb.co/ZTdr05r

Let's look at Southern Empire for example, with only the 25 days truce, nothing prevent either Khuzait Aserai or Eastern empire to completely destroy it.
However with tribute system we can assume that Southern Empire is tributary to those 3, so they either keep it that way or disrupt tribute and destroy it. I don't know what would happened but at least it has a chance to survive for a time and Southern Empire maybe would not have fall to this state with the tribute system implemented.
I'm not saying that this is THE solution, what i'm saying is that it at least deserve to be tested as a viable option. It's quite situational because as you can see on the screenshot Sturgia has lost to Vlandia and is threatened by Khuzait aswell.

I have to imagine, too, that a loser paying tribute regularly will become easy pickings for a belligerent third party, leading to losers vanishing from the map even faster.

Yes, this is a legitimate concern i agree, but let's bear in mind that in the current state there is absolutely no diplomacy feature that rules over AI decision to make war or not and, even if it's far from perfect, i find welcome the implementation of one that gives a little sense to AI behavior when declaring war or not.
 
后退
顶部 底部