Beta or Release?

[tdriftx]

When I found out about Warband, I was excited to see it was released rather than in Beta stage.

I happily bought the first Mount & Blade while it was v0.750 and I was fine with any bugs as it was expected, therefore there was no disappointment.
However, paying for Warband in the state of mind of acquiring a released, unbugged version - to come across numerous bugs and problems was a huge disappointment and really took a big chunk of the enjoyment, of M&B, out for me.

I still love the game and fully support the developers, although it definitely makes one skeptical of a game released by the developers due to the fact the released version of Warband is so buggy.
For someone that decided to buy the game and notice all the problems (as you wouldn't really notice any in the Trial as you don't play long enough to notice), it could easily put them off the series and the developers completely.  I'm concerned for the developers and new-comers as I have had high hopes for TaleWorlds and M&B since I first found out about them and do not want things like this having a negative effect.

I would have been much happier to buy Warband as a Beta to avoid disappointment as I was certainly satisfied and happy with Mount & Blade in its Beta stages while not having bugs frustrating me seen as they were expected.

I hope to see future releases of games with only minor bugs and all the really noticeable or major bugs taken care of in a Beta stage.  I understand the post-release update phase can cause unforeseen bugs but major and noticeable bugs one after the other, in every update, is a big put-off for a released game.

I definitely agree with how amazing TaleWorlds are with what they have accomplished with 2 people for the first game and their small team for Warband.  They have my highest respects without a doubt.

Like DesDope stated, I too need to relate more to the publishers than the developers, although it is the development team that chooses the publisher to use and they would know their history as we all know its history, even as gamers, while the development team would need to make sure they research the publisher they choose if they want to make sure their sales reach what they desire.

I doubt very much that publishers would state a product they have spent money on to release and package isn't polished as this would clearly reduce sales (not what they would want), I guess the best the customer could receive is a stickied thread in the Forum stating that it is not polished yet and we will basically be Beta testers until the final release.  Unfortunately not all customers would see this, but hopefully it would save a few from disappointment.

Hopefully this thread alone may be read, by those who have just paid, to save their disappointment so that they only gain a positive experience from their perfect buy, of what I perceive to be an amazing product none-the-less.


I definitely agree on a user manual for those who read them, but there is one thing I think is a must and should have been implemented for Warband after the first M&B - an automatic patcher rather than users having to check the site every day for a more bug-free version, this would be a huge asset for customers that purchase this game.

 

[Finch]

Virtually every released game nowadays is not bug free. The latest vers. 1.113 is relatively free of game breaking bugs compared to some of the earlier versions. More patches are upcoming to address any lingering and new issues.

 

[Pejot]

I'm sure devs are working now on some huge patch that will fix large number of bugs.

 

[dumdidum]

i'm also very disappointed with several aspects. the german translation for instance is a veritable disaster. I fail to comprehend how there is no user guide, not even as a digital document, helping beginners to find out how things work in M&B. that's a fact wich prevents newcomers from falling in love with this great game. actually it is a great game, but it takes some time to realize the strengths and the unique features of it while you are permanently faced with heavy translation errors, antiquated graphics and an apparently beta stage. and even more so if you do not know what you have to do in calradia. so please make at least a downloadable user guide!
don't get me wrong ... i really love this game and i'm very happy and i have no regrets with this purchase. (or bargain) in addition i emphasize the support of such projects heartily.
but i don't understand how you could release it in this stage. i'm tired of beeing a beta tester for games i pay for. even though it's not an AAA title.

 

[DesDope]

I absolutely agree with tdriftx and dumdidum: While I love this game and gladly support the people behind it with my money I would still have loved to see a more polished product (or the announcement that the game is still in beta in which case it would have been my choice to be overly eager to get my hands on an unfinished product or wait until it is finished - either way I would have known what to expect of the game I just purchased).

As it is now I returned to playing the original M&B (which has kept me fascinated for such a long time now) and trying out some of the mods I haven't played so far. Together with some of the graphical enhancements made by dedicated players I actually feel more at home there than in the new Warband. I occasionally fire up Warband for multiplayer but I have not touched the single player for quite some time now. I guess once some of the mods start coming up for Warband I will be happy to have it installed on my HD as I hope that they also will address some of the still outstanding issues with Warband (we all remember how much more depth and playability some of the mods for M&B offered and still do).

One thing that has to be said for Taleworlds however is that they show unparalleled support with new patches - I have cut down my amount of games played over the last years simply because I got annoyed with companies simply trying to rip people off with half-finished products and then not do anything about it.

@ Finch: The fact that there are no bug free games anymore nowadays is no excuse to make the same mistake. Yes, there will always be some minor bugs somewhere with games being as complex as they are today, but at least some of the more obvious and decisive bugs should be taken care of. I remember a time when bugs were to be found on the covers of games if at all. Yes, I am that old. And as I said, I understand that more complex games will always be prone to more possible errors. But some of the games released are just an insult to any gamer. And yet people buy them because of the wonderful hype created by media (and sometimes the lack of other options, especially with some sports games). But I digress in my wonderful rant ...

When all is said and done, M&B (as well as Warband) and Taleworlds are at the top of my book for many reasons, one of them being providing us with something really new (well, Warband less so but still ... ) and showing some effort in supporting their community. It is the main reason why I feel good supporting them and giving them my money because I can see it being put to good use.

My 2 cents (well, actually looking at the length of the post rather $2.65)

 

[Pejot]

i'm also very disappointed with several aspects. the german translation for instance is a veritable disaster. I fail to comprehend how there is no user guide, not even as a digital document, helping beginners to find out how things work in M&B. that's a fact wich prevents newcomers from falling in love with this great game. actually it is a great game, but it takes some time to realize the strengths and the unique features of it while you are permanently faced with heavy translation errors, antiquated graphics and an apparently beta stage. and even more so if you do not know what you have to do in calradia. so please make at least a downloadable user guide!
don't get me wrong ... i really love this game and i'm very happy and i have no regrets with this purchase. (or bargain) in addition i emphasize the support of such projects heartily.
but i don't understand how you could release it in this stage. i'm tired of beeing a beta tester for games i pay for. even though it's not an AAA title.

I'm playing with english language cause polish translation is so horrible that sometimes you won't understand about what you are reading
Still love the game and I will be patient waiting for final release cause i think it's worth it I even don't complain about price despite the fact that in Poland 29,99 USD is almost 1/20 of average salary.

 

[Moss]

The producer, not the developer, is responsible for the release date.

Unfortunately the game has to ship on the release date, wether it's ready or not and wether the developers think it's ready or not. Paradox has a bit of a reputation of releasing games before they're really done, the only thing the developers can do is make sure they get all those bugs wiped out after release as quickly as they can.

 

[dumdidum]

The producer, not the developer, is responsible for the release date.

It is sadly a matter of common knowledge.

 

[Moss]

Sadly not common enough though. I've lost track of times I've heard people complaining about developers releasing a game before it was done, when it's really not their decision.

 

[Ageudum]

@ Finch: The fact that there are no bug free games anymore nowadays is no excuse to make the same mistake. Yes, there will always be some minor bugs somewhere with games being as complex as they are today, but at least some of the more obvious and decisive bugs should be taken care of. I remember a time when bugs were to be found on the covers of games if at all. Yes, I am that old. And as I said, I understand that more complex games will always be prone to more possible errors. But some of the games released are just an insult to any gamer. And yet people buy them because of the wonderful hype created by media (and sometimes the lack of other options, especially with some sports games). But I digress in my wonderful rant ...

The TaleWorlds developing team comprises of two (2) people. A couple has to model everything in the game, program new features and make sure they work entirely, add dialogue and sound, and create and test multiplayer. For two people to do all of this with a set release date, it's amazing that they were able to release the game in the first place.

All games will have bugs. Games that are huge titles and are expected to be excellent pieces of art still have major and minor bugs in them, and they have tens of people working on a single aspect. To expect a development team this small to come out with a game that is relatively flawless in performance with a release date bottlenecking them is insane.

 

[Finch]

The TW Team probably have grown beyond two by now. That said they are still very small compared to your big budget game companies. TW has done a good job keeping a relatively old title alive, good going.

 

[DesDope]

Don't get me wrong, they are comparatively small and doing a great job. However as far as I know the development team has grown since the first M&B, so it is not just 2 people sitting there. That being said, it doesn't matter whether you have 2 or 200 people working on a game. For the customer it is annoying to pay for a final release and find it is still in beta. Then just say that it is still in beta. If the publisher (yes, Moss, thanks for bringing that up - I commonly use the term developer even when I sometimes definitely mean the publisher, which is somewhat ignorant and which I will try to correct in the future) releases a game that is not yet finished but that has to be published at that specific date for whatever reasons then said publisher should announce that it is still not polished but people can already buy and play if they so choose or wait for the final release.

Again, I love the game. I adore what the devs have done with the first M&B. It is a very original game, something that happens much too rarely nowadays (I come from the time of the C64 where you didn't have this huge amount of possibilities to spice up a poor game concept with great graphics and sound, thus a lot of thinking went into the basic concept of the game). I am surprised by the time and effort they put into coming up with patches that address existing issues. And I simply am blown away by the modding community who helps keeping this game alive and even bringing new ideas for the developers for future releases (as we could witness with Warband).

That however doesn't mean that one should simply close his eyes and accept that Paradox published a beta product (once again as Moss also mentioned) instead of a final release. I would have purchased it anyway, but at least I would have expected a lot of the things that really annoyed me when first playing the game ... messages popping up in the game about the ransom option not yet being implemented, lots of error messages, dev notes and the like. This is just not what I was expecting when I bought the game.

And just to re-iterate: Yes, I love this game!

--------------
Edited due to a spelling error. I am peculiar this way. Sue me.

 

[LOLLord Ben]

I almost fully agree with the starting post. Last games I bought that were buggy and almost felt like a beta were ArmA 2 and OFP2. BUT: Those games were made by "big" studios, while this was made by a rather "small" studio - and looking at the job they did I can only say this over and over: I tip my hat (for me that means "I have huge-ass respect for these guys", for those who don't get it).

 

[tdriftx]

I definitely agree with how amazing TaleWorlds are with what they have accomplished with 2 people for the first game and their small team for Warband.  They have my highest respects without a doubt.

Like DesDope stated, I too need to relate more to the publishers than the developers, although it is the development team that chooses the publisher to use and they would know their history as we all know its history, even as gamers, while the development team would need to make sure they research the publisher they choose if they want to make sure their sales reach what they desire.

I doubt very much that publishers would state a product they have spent money on to release and package isn't polished as this would clearly reduce sales (not what they would want), I guess the best the customer could receive is a stickied thread in the Forum stating that it is not polished yet and we will basically be Beta testers until the final release.  Unfortunately not all customers would see this, but hopefully it would save a few from disappointment.

Hopefully this thread alone may be read, by those who have just paid, to save their disappointment so that they only gain a positive experience from their perfect buy, of what I perceive to be an amazing product none-the-less.


I definitely agree on a user manual for those who read them, but there is one thing I think is a must and should have been implemented for Warband after the first M&B - an automatic patcher rather than users having to check the site every day for a more bug-free version, this would be a huge asset for customers that purchase this game.

 

[Finch]

An auto patcher is not a good idea ... imagine with the 1.112 patch was released with a auto patcher. We all know the 1.112 patch caused a lot of the path finding to be messed up, made the game crash, etc. Those and others were serious bugs that were introduced by a patch. If such a patch were auto patched, more people would have gotten it compared to fewer people who actually went to the site to download, click install, etc.

 

[tdriftx]

An auto patcher is not a good idea ... imagine with the 1.112 patch was released with a auto patcher. We all know the 1.112 patch caused a lot of the path finding to be messed up, made the game crash, etc. Those and others were serious bugs that were introduced by a patch. If such a patch were auto patched, more people would have gotten it compared to fewer people who actually went to the site to download, click install, etc.

They patched the game a day later due to the patch being so bad, so I don't see how it would be a problem.  Most auto patchers also have the option to download and install the patch or do it later, too.  The fact there wasn't an auto patcher, I downloaded version 1.112 and didn't check up for a patch later so had it for 7 days, with an auto patcher I would have had much less frustation having it fixed the next day instead.

Also the more people playing the older versions, the more bugs causing frustration to those that don't realise there is a patch that fix them.  So your comment contridicts itself, later versions are meant to be better, not worse.

 

[Finch]

Having a auto patcher reduces the need for people to go to the site to check up the changelog, read up on comments, etc. Many will run the patcher, patch their game assuming that it is for the best. If they need to go to the site, they have a 'excuse' to go visit the site, click around the forums, etc. Every so often patches fixes old bugs and introduces new ones.

 

[Pejot]

Like DesDope stated, I too need to relate more to the publishers than the developers, although it is the development team that chooses the publisher

No, they don't. They create game and look for publisher who will see money in releasing their game. Sadly the bigger the publisher the less is possibility he will work with developers that weren't known before.

 

[someboddy]

i'm also very disappointed with several aspects. the german translation for instance is a veritable disaster.

Well, you DID lose the war...

 

[Archonsod]

Virtually every released game nowadays is not bug free.

There's no such thing as bug free. Hell, if anyone was capable of writing bug free code I suspect they'd be too busy swanning around the Bahama's on their multi million pound boat to write it. And I'd be out of a job

For the customer it is annoying to pay for a final release and find it is still in beta. Then just say that it is still in beta.

It's possible for a game to be released, not in beta and still be patched. In fact, it's kinda a good thing, I suspect far more customers would be put off if you announced it was the final release. Beta = not yet ready for the public, not necessarily working perfectly. In fact with any multiplayer game it's pretty much impossible to release it in a perfect state; you're always going to want to tweak the balance after you've let the whole world find the exploits, and of course any anti-cheat measures or similar protection need to be kept up to date.
Generally speaking, with any complex software (which 99% of it is these days) you're still in development for quite some time post release. You really need the feedback from the user base to be able to put the final polish to the product. Particularly with a small team that's been working on the game since it's inception; their perception of the content naturally differs from someone approaching it for the first time, and there's a lot of things which can seem perfectly sensible in development that are completely nonsensical out in the real world.