Best use of Skirmishing Units?

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Hey, so I’ve been getting more and more into skirmishers/hybrid infantry in captain mode, but the outcome seems hit or miss (pun intended), especially with Sturgian Brigands. Are there any tips you would like to share in using them effectively?

All answers related to “they’re trash don’t ever use them” are unwelcome and will be disregarded- I am trying to learn EVERY class.
 

Tiedemannj

Regular
WBWF&SVC
All answers related to “they’re trash don’t ever use them” are unwelcome and will be disregarded- I am trying to learn EVERY class.
They are really bad tho, mostly because of how the AI utilizes trowing weapons. The AI has really bad aim and seems to get confused when they both have to block incoming fireand trow javs. I've had skirms emptry all their jareeds into a group of 2h-units without getting a single kill. Best advice would be to just take any perk that gives better melee perfomance by sacrificing trowing weapons. They will still lose to most things in melee, but that's the best you can do. Trowing spears and pilas sometimes see some play, but that's still dubious. Wildlings are generally the best in pure melee.

Their only real plus is that they run quite fast for a shielded unit. You can somewhat use them to chase archers since you outrun other shield-inf (which themselves outrun archers) and, unlike the faster shock troops, you get a shield. Just be careful to tell them to hold fire when you chase or they will get themselves killed pretty fast.
 

Aliaksandr

Veteran
just get some skirmish players and you can win any captains mode game
Cool ... looks like the wet dream of a pimply boy who has learned to juggle a ball well (block and do feints - in your case), about fame in big football. And, if you're not joking, I will add one more thing: for more than 3k games in captains mode, I still haven't met a captain whom I didn't know and who suddenly became successful in this mode. All worthy captains whom I know have played a lot of games in this mode, and blocking and feints occupy no more than 5-10% of the skills required to become successful in this MP mode.
 
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Tiedemannj

Regular
WBWF&SVC
Cool ... looks like the wet dream of a pimply boy who has learned to juggle a ball well (block and do feints - in your case), about fame in big soccer. And, if you're not joking, I will add one more thing: for more than 3k games in captains mode, I still haven't met a captain whom I didn't know and who suddenly became successful in this mode. All worthy captains whom I know have played a lot of games in this mode, and blocking and feints occupy no more than 5-10% of the skills required to become successful in this MP mode.
That might well be true, but a decent human player can certanly wreck havoc on the AI. This is especially true for cav with swingable polearms which is something the AI just can't handle. Rambo cav is (as sad as it is) still strong and prevalent in captain and a skrimish good skirimsh cav can fill this role without much experience of the mode.
 
Sadly, I would tell you to use them to skirmish - but alas, this is not quite possible due to current meta.

A skirmisher - in my book:
- should be using hit and run tactics thus being a bit more fleet-footed than other infantry.
- weed out lightly armored troops using missile weapons or counter enemy skirmishers
- wound and/or encumber heavy troops by inflicting wounds and destroying shields (javelins SHOULD be able to disable shields or one-shot an enemy on a critical hit like they would in reality but they do not)
- assist heavier troops when it comes to melee by flanking other infantry - this one you could still do but I guess you team would be better off with another unit of dedicated melee infantry.

Unless they change something about the way armor, shields and missile weapons work they seem like a waste of time.
 
. All worthy captains whom I know have played a lot of games in this mode, and blocking and feints occupy no more than 5-10% of the skills required to become successful in this MP mode.



You do realize that the first time skirmish teams entered the "Captains League" tournament (The biggest captains mode tournament) the two skirmish teams that entered placed first and second (and they didn't really practice all that much-- maybe a dozen games or so)..

By the way, DM will win your tournament if they decide to play, another skirmish mode team.
 

Tiedemannj

Regular
WBWF&SVC
This is not what the thread is about. The thread is about skirmisher classes, such as wildling and brigand.
And you have gotten your answer. They are bad to the point of uselessness.

The only one you should maybe consider using is the wildling. They have somewhat decent staying power in melee and they have the good run speed and shield of other skirmishers.

All answers related to “they’re trash don’t ever use them” are unwelcome and will be disregarded- I am trying to learn EVERY class.
Captain mode doesn't work like skirmish where individual skill can always make any unit functional. In cpt you are often at the mercy of the AIs capasity and they can't use trowing weapons properly. Skirmishers are balanced around their access to a weapon they can't use and therefore are strictly worse than all other units. If you still try to make them work you will find yourself losing due to no fault of your own (apart from picking skirms), but for the AIs incompetense.

In fact; the AI utilizes trowing weaponsso badly that it's obvious that they are either incorrectly programmed or just straight up bugged. Line up a group of javeliners and see for yourself! They start swiveling around, holding their javs for too long, switching targets mid trow and you have javs flying everywhere. This means they can't hit units right infront of them or realease all their javs in a reasonable time. If you get rushed while trowing you can see most of your dead units still have most or all their javs still in their quiver.

Learning a unit might mean learning not to pick that unit. This doesn't mean they can't be fixed in a future patch. If so you can play skirm til the cows come home, but until then, for the sanity of your team mates, I would advice against it.
 

cuce

cuce
Developer
one thing we are going to try with single player skirmisher troops vary their javelins a bit. one troop would have the current one the other will have a slightly lighter version thus dealing less dmg but have a longer range. What I`m hoping to get out of this is to change change is `all or nothing` situation of skirmishing troops. At the moment they either all throw them or more than likely don`t use throwing weapons before ending up in melee. Having an important part of their character this black and white is an issue. they should be peppering enemy if a bit more, they are skirmishers not black powered line infantry launching a salvo

If we like what we get in sp, a similiar aproach can be utilized for captain mode as well.
 

Zarthas

Knight
Hi, welcome to the forums. Please understand that there's a lot of flock mentality here. If you ask any kind of legitimate question, expect the first 5 pages of responses to be INFANTRY BAD, CAPTAIN MODE FOR NUBS, THE ONLY REAL CHADS ARE LOLFEINTERS.

I'm not sure this forum is worth anyone's time, to be honest, but here we all are.

I've played almost exclusively Light Inf and Skirmishers since launch. (like ~2500 hours, I'm ashamed to admit).

It is hard.

The historical problem with Skirmishers is complicated. Partly it was the old Scoring system, which did not account for damage done at all, and since javelins rarely kill anyone your Shock Infantry player is gonna be like "LOL I KILLED 100 GUYS REALLY EASILY ITS WEIRD THAT THEY ALL DIED IN ONE HIT BUT IT IS DEFINITELY BECAUSE I AM THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME AND SKIRMHERS AER BAD"
Partly it is because TaleWorlds HATES throwing weapons, because Duel is the only real game mode for real chads, all 8 of the sweaty Euros that make up Taleworld's "Player input" committee. Don't get me ****ing started on what they have done to my throwing axes.
Mostly, it is because Taleworlds hates skirmishers, and the most severe bugs in the game seem to affect Skirmishers the most.

The advantage of a Skirmisher is their hidden "Combat Move Speed" bonus compared to other troops. This is not communicated to the player in any way, but they can accelerate multiples faster than other troops when in the "Combat" state. Only your Captain can really take advantage of this, and individual AI will foolishly decide to engage sometimes when you've told them to move to another position away from a Heavy Infantry troop they could easily just outrun.

The design intent is to use this with the Fallback command, harassing enemies and stringing out their formation so allies can hit them with a charge or arrows.

Skirmisher and Horse Archer AI is currently bugged as of the last patch. They seem to confuse the direction of their intended move target and the direction of their nearest enemy very often, and you'll watch them throw stuff at walls if using the Fallback command which is absolutely vital to playing Skirmishers. ( I have reported this, as I am one of 2 Skirmisher Main players that probably exist lol)

Skirmishers are only viable on the the very large maps, and only with certain team compositions against certain enemy compositions. You need either friendly archers or horses to take advantage of your ability to push and pull enemy units around the map. If the rest of your allies are heavy infantry, you're relegated to trying to hit the flanks of formations with your javelins. If your enemy is primary heavy infantry, you wont affect the battle too much and have to do support charges with your allies, or just be a nuisance and attempt to goad enemies into chasing you.

Couple of Faction/Equipment tips:
-Only use the Spatha on Recruits. The AI doesn't understand that the Pugio is fast and does not attack any more frequently than normal with it, and the Gladius is not a weapon at all. I wouldn't ever recommend using an Improved Shield perk on any class in Captain as shields break so infrequently it is really a non issue, and the AI is able to pick up new shields.
-Don't use Throwing Spears as throwing weapons. Their damage is nerfed to the point of absurdity, you'll regularly do 20-30 damage on Rangers or Peasants 5 meters away (literally the same damage as the lightest javelins). They also cannot be picked up by the AI once thrown. Their only use case is if you want to screen friendly archers against cavalry, which Skirmishers are surprisingly good at with their very fast combat move speed.
-Rely on the Rapid Throws perk. There are instances in which the Better Javelin/Specialist perk is good (If your enemy is spamming Shock infantry in a smallish map), but with such poor accuracy and limited ammunition it is a roll of the dice if you'll have any effect in combat. The max damage output of the Rapid Throws perk is much greater, but will take a longer time to output.
-Always take Kaskara on Skirmishers. The Flyssa is basically not a weapon. If you beat up a Shock unit with javelins and then rush them with the Kaskara, you can often wipe a Menav or Hammer Savage unit on your own, which is really unusual for Skirmishers in general.
-Aserai Skirmishers are unusual because they can have a dedicated spear and a large shield with javelins, meaning their actually good at protecting your archers from enemy archers and cavalry, and can even do a volley of javs when enemy shock infantry tries to charge your archers.
-Brigands are the absolute worst Skirmisher overall. Their troop count is very low, their equipment is some of the worst, and they are not very fast. The only reason to use them is to have a Spear and Shield with a only very slightly higher troop count and move speed than the Varyag. Can sometimes be usuable if your enemy is focusing on using horse archers in a map with tight quarters, but nobody does that.
-Wildlings are weird because they are basically Medium Infantry with Javelins. If there are enemy heavy infantry on teh field, take the Club. Use your mobility to catch opponents in bad positions. People often get confused and think their shield is good for shieldwalling, but it has a weird hitbox and you will be torn apart by sustained archer fire. Their real strength is staying a few meters behind Oaths or Rangers/Fianns and discouraging enemy charges with their volleys and immediately joining the fight with Clubs against heavy infantry.

You can't engage enemy heavy infantry alone, can only engage enemy light infantry after throwing all your **** at them.

Taking them is a huge gamble, but it can be fun.
 
one thing we are going to try with single player skirmisher troops vary their javelins a bit. one troop would have the current one the other will have a slightly lighter version thus dealing less dmg but have a longer range. What I`m hoping to get out of this is to change change is `all or nothing` situation of skirmishing troops. At the moment they either all throw them or more than likely don`t use throwing weapons before ending up in melee. Having an important part of their character this black and white is an issue. they should be peppering enemy if a bit more, they are skirmishers not black powered line infantry launching a salvo

If we like what we get in sp, a similiar aproach can be utilized for captain mode as well.
Thank you for the reply. So it's definitely primarily an AI issue overall?

Hi, welcome to the forums. Please understand that there's a lot of flock mentality here. If you ask any kind of legitimate question, expect the first 5 pages of responses to be INFANTRY BAD, CAPTAIN MODE FOR NUBS, THE ONLY REAL CHADS ARE LOLFEINTERS.

I'm not sure this forum is worth anyone's time, to be honest, but here we all are.

I've played almost exclusively Light Inf and Skirmishers since launch. (like ~2500 hours, I'm ashamed to admit).

It is hard.

The historical problem with Skirmishers is complicated. Partly it was the old Scoring system, which did not account for damage done at all, and since javelins rarely kill anyone your Shock Infantry player is gonna be like "LOL I KILLED 100 GUYS REALLY EASILY ITS WEIRD THAT THEY ALL DIED IN ONE HIT BUT IT IS DEFINITELY BECAUSE I AM THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME AND SKIRMHERS AER BAD"
Partly it is because TaleWorlds HATES throwing weapons, because Duel is the only real game mode for real chads, all 8 of the sweaty Euros that make up Taleworld's "Player input" committee. Don't get me ****ing started on what they have done to my throwing axes.
Mostly, it is because Taleworlds hates skirmishers, and the most severe bugs in the game seem to affect Skirmishers the most.

The advantage of a Skirmisher is their hidden "Combat Move Speed" bonus compared to other troops. This is not communicated to the player in any way, but they can accelerate multiples faster than other troops when in the "Combat" state. Only your Captain can really take advantage of this, and individual AI will foolishly decide to engage sometimes when you've told them to move to another position away from a Heavy Infantry troop they could easily just outrun.

The design intent is to use this with the Fallback command, harassing enemies and stringing out their formation so allies can hit them with a charge or arrows.

Skirmisher and Horse Archer AI is currently bugged as of the last patch. They seem to confuse the direction of their intended move target and the direction of their nearest enemy very often, and you'll watch them throw stuff at walls if using the Fallback command which is absolutely vital to playing Skirmishers. ( I have reported this, as I am one of 2 Skirmisher Main players that probably exist lol)

Skirmishers are only viable on the the very large maps, and only with certain team compositions against certain enemy compositions. You need either friendly archers or horses to take advantage of your ability to push and pull enemy units around the map. If the rest of your allies are heavy infantry, you're relegated to trying to hit the flanks of formations with your javelins. If your enemy is primary heavy infantry, you wont affect the battle too much and have to do support charges with your allies, or just be a nuisance and attempt to goad enemies into chasing you.

Couple of Faction/Equipment tips:
-Only use the Spatha on Recruits. The AI doesn't understand that the Pugio is fast and does not attack any more frequently than normal with it, and the Gladius is not a weapon at all. I wouldn't ever recommend using an Improved Shield perk on any class in Captain as shields break so infrequently it is really a non issue, and the AI is able to pick up new shields.
-Don't use Throwing Spears as throwing weapons. Their damage is nerfed to the point of absurdity, you'll regularly do 20-30 damage on Rangers or Peasants 5 meters away (literally the same damage as the lightest javelins). They also cannot be picked up by the AI once thrown. Their only use case is if you want to screen friendly archers against cavalry, which Skirmishers are surprisingly good at with their very fast combat move speed.
-Rely on the Rapid Throws perk. There are instances in which the Better Javelin/Specialist perk is good (If your enemy is spamming Shock infantry in a smallish map), but with such poor accuracy and limited ammunition it is a roll of the dice if you'll have any effect in combat. The max damage output of the Rapid Throws perk is much greater, but will take a longer time to output.
-Always take Kaskara on Skirmishers. The Flyssa is basically not a weapon. If you beat up a Shock unit with javelins and then rush them with the Kaskara, you can often wipe a Menav or Hammer Savage unit on your own, which is really unusual for Skirmishers in general.
-Aserai Skirmishers are unusual because they can have a dedicated spear and a large shield with javelins, meaning their actually good at protecting your archers from enemy archers and cavalry, and can even do a volley of javs when enemy shock infantry tries to charge your archers.
-Brigands are the absolute worst Skirmisher overall. Their troop count is very low, their equipment is some of the worst, and they are not very fast. The only reason to use them is to have a Spear and Shield with a only very slightly higher troop count and move speed than the Varyag. Can sometimes be usuable if your enemy is focusing on using horse archers in a map with tight quarters, but nobody does that.
-Wildlings are weird because they are basically Medium Infantry with Javelins. If there are enemy heavy infantry on teh field, take the Club. Use your mobility to catch opponents in bad positions. People often get confused and think their shield is good for shieldwalling, but it has a weird hitbox and you will be torn apart by sustained archer fire. Their real strength is staying a few meters behind Oaths or Rangers/Fianns and discouraging enemy charges with their volleys and immediately joining the fight with Clubs against heavy infantry.

You can't engage enemy heavy infantry alone, can only engage enemy light infantry after throwing all your **** at them.

Taking them is a huge gamble, but it can be fun.
Thank you very, very much for this huge wealth of information! I'm trying to master every class as previously stated, but I primarily use archer troops overall. I want to learn/become decent with skirmishers for the sake of being able to be useful as flanking infantry as well while still having ranged options. Does the movement speed only effect engagements where the AI picks a target, or does it work at all points when moving? If not, how do you recommend more consistently getting executing flanks relatively unnoticed?
 

Zarthas

Knight
Learn to block.
Blocking is for the weak. Real men run away and throw javelins. Real men used to run away and throw rocks, back in my day.

Thank you for the reply. So it's definitely primarily an AI issue overall?


Thank you very, very much for this huge wealth of information! I'm trying to master every class as previously stated, but I primarily use archer troops overall. I want to learn/become decent with skirmishers for the sake of being able to be useful as flanking infantry as well while still having ranged options. Does the movement speed only effect engagements where the AI picks a target, or does it work at all points when moving? If not, how do you recommend more consistently getting executing flanks relatively unnoticed?

The "Combat State" thing has some specific animations that go with it, if you pay attention you have probably noticed them before. It engages when you ready an attack. The devs discussed it in some of the version update discussions, and if memory serves there's an additional multiplier in Captain Mode for Skirmishers for it. It basically means you can disengage from any infantry fight and nobody can immediately stop you. Some Shocks are faster than you and will catch up to you again, but you are able to juke out of the way faster than they are after a block. Unfortunately the AI cannot take advantage of this, and you will notice that one or two of them will peel off and engage pursuers, while the rest of your guys that are not "engaged" are able to keep moving.

Skirmishers are really the opposite of Shock Infantry. Shocks can do massive bursty damage but can't take it. Skirmishers can usually take slightly more punishment than lights, but take a long time to dish out damage. You can output enough damage to kill a couple light infantry or a heavy infantry in your javelin payload per skirmisher, but it takes a long time to throw them all. In my experience, Skirmishers are most effective when you are hanging out near your allies, screening your archers from melee charges by hanging out in loose formation and pelting incoming troops. Wildlings in particular excel here with their Clubs, since what makes it to your Archers or Heavies is usually enemy Heavy Infantry.
You are in a prime position to take advantage of any mistakes your opponents make, though. You're faster than anything except Savages, Zerks, and Cavalry. You can break off from your allies to punish positioning mistakes, but you can't usually finish any fights on your own and have to return to the main body (or get cav/archer support) if you meet any real resistance.

A tactic I'm pretty fond of is False Retreats with skirmishers. If you have heavy allies nearby, or coming up to support you, you can engage opponents very briefly on a Charge with throwing weapons, then use the Fallback command to have your troops flee in many directions.
If your opponent is foolish or not paying attention, they'll leave their troops on "Charge" and get spread out. If your allies are paying attention, they can smash right into the center of the stretched enemy, you set your guys to Charge as well, and you just mop up.

In general, outputting a lot of damage to stationary heavy infantry with Skirms is hard. If you can, be on the right-hand side of an opponent's formation, as you're more likely to find a space without a shield in it. Historically, this is also how Peltasts functioned, and why modern armies line up with the highest ranking guy on the right-hand side of the formation. It is a place of pride, as they knew that's where all the javelins would be targeting and you must be a total badass to volunteer for that.

Your job is really to punish unshielded enemies in bad spots, soften up and spread out enemies, then come in behind your allies as they tank damage.
 
Archers in front as enemy gets close pull them behind the shield wall and as enemy hit shield wall hit the enemy in the sides with skirmishes and two handed troops. works for me . my Cav follow me and we hit from behind into enemy archers or fight there cav.
 
Blocking is for the weak. Real men run away and throw javelins. Real men used to run away and throw rocks, back in my day.



The "Combat State" thing has some specific animations that go with it, if you pay attention you have probably noticed them before. It engages when you ready an attack. The devs discussed it in some of the version update discussions, and if memory serves there's an additional multiplier in Captain Mode for Skirmishers for it. It basically means you can disengage from any infantry fight and nobody can immediately stop you. Some Shocks are faster than you and will catch up to you again, but you are able to juke out of the way faster than they are after a block. Unfortunately the AI cannot take advantage of this, and you will notice that one or two of them will peel off and engage pursuers, while the rest of your guys that are not "engaged" are able to keep moving.

Skirmishers are really the opposite of Shock Infantry. Shocks can do massive bursty damage but can't take it. Skirmishers can usually take slightly more punishment than lights, but take a long time to dish out damage. You can output enough damage to kill a couple light infantry or a heavy infantry in your javelin payload per skirmisher, but it takes a long time to throw them all. In my experience, Skirmishers are most effective when you are hanging out near your allies, screening your archers from melee charges by hanging out in loose formation and pelting incoming troops. Wildlings in particular excel here with their Clubs, since what makes it to your Archers or Heavies is usually enemy Heavy Infantry.
You are in a prime position to take advantage of any mistakes your opponents make, though. You're faster than anything except Savages, Zerks, and Cavalry. You can break off from your allies to punish positioning mistakes, but you can't usually finish any fights on your own and have to return to the main body (or get cav/archer support) if you meet any real resistance.

A tactic I'm pretty fond of is False Retreats with skirmishers. If you have heavy allies nearby, or coming up to support you, you can engage opponents very briefly on a Charge with throwing weapons, then use the Fallback command to have your troops flee in many directions.
If your opponent is foolish or not paying attention, they'll leave their troops on "Charge" and get spread out. If your allies are paying attention, they can smash right into the center of the stretched enemy, you set your guys to Charge as well, and you just mop up.

In general, outputting a lot of damage to stationary heavy infantry with Skirms is hard. If you can, be on the right-hand side of an opponent's formation, as you're more likely to find a space without a shield in it. Historically, this is also how Peltasts functioned, and why modern armies line up with the highest ranking guy on the right-hand side of the formation. It is a place of pride, as they knew that's where all the javelins would be targeting and you must be a total badass to volunteer for that.

Your job is really to punish unshielded enemies in bad spots, soften up and spread out enemies, then come in behind your allies as they tank damage.
Thank you once again. I’ll try to implement these points.~
 

Aliaksandr

Veteran
I have reported this, as I am one of 2 Skirmisher Main players that probably exist lol
Wow?! all the time I was sure that you are the only main skirmisher in the captains mode... the best at least. Who else do you consider your equal? Well, in essence, what you described is the best overview of the problems and a really great guide to using skirmishers in captains mode. Thanks for your time, mate.
This is Europe, we call it football sir, get that american propaganda out of here
agree, corrected)
Learn to block.
now it's not relevant anymore, put up with it old chap :wink:
 
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