Been testing the game on vanilla - what's up with the AI real-time ominiscience?

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xdj1nn

Knight at Arms
AI seems to be plagued with all-vision in such a way that the game becomes 100% non-tactical. If you have a strong enough party and turn cheats on, scout an enemy army to see their siege target. - If you teleport to their target the AI will immediately switches target even though they supposedly have no vision of your own army.
After TW applied the "fog of war" on us I naively thought they were simply leveling the ground - which isn't the case, we are deliberately being handicapped and the AI remains uncanny, knows all and reacts accordingly on a very blatant manner...
Until this gets properly fixed the game will remain in a poor quality state, as is there's basically zero strategy on both battles and campaign map... This should've been addressed ages ago...

I think most of us don't really notice this issue because TW has removed the old Warband all-vision cheat, so we are unable to observe the AI behavior properly on campaign map - yet that's what's going on when we aren't "looking", AI will basically backdoor you endlessly (and itself), add to it it's tendency of going "world war against player" and there we have the main reason why mid-late game's such a chore...
 
After TW applied the "fog of war" on us I naively thought they were simply leveling the ground - which isn't the case, we are deliberately being handicapped and the AI remains uncanny, knows all and reacts accordingly on a very blatant manner...
Until this gets properly fixed the game will remain in a poor quality state, as is there's basically zero strategy on both battles and campaign map... This should've been addressed ages ago...
The A.I. has always cheated like this and probably always will. The problem is if it doesn't cheat like this they'd never bring an appropriate number of troops for anything like sieges and you'd have serious snowballing issues where whatever Kingdom that happens to put together a big army will win, and all others will flounder because too many parties are tied up in an Army that can't do anything.

I really don't know why anyone wanted "fog of war" for the encyclopedia. Seriously just stupid. Personally never even used it for that, since it's always in your best interest to form as large an army as possible anyways. And you can be pretty sure recently conquered Towns/Castles will have low Garrisons/Militias.


But these are same people who are blissfully unaware A.I. doesn't need horses for upgrades either LOL. But hey good luck getting enough war horses to upgrade your troops now (nevermind if you can actually afford them) with all the horse changes they made. Just another quality patch that fixes as many things as it breaks, same as always.
 
The A.I. has always cheated like this and probably always will. The problem is if it doesn't cheat like this they'd never bring an appropriate number of troops for anything like sieges and you'd have serious snowballing issues where whatever Kingdom that happens to put together a big army will win, and all others will flounder because too many parties are tied up in an Army that can't do anything.

I really don't know why anyone wanted "fog of war" for the encyclopedia. Seriously just stupid. Personally never even used it for that, since it's always in your best interest to form as large an army as possible anyways. And you can be pretty sure recently conquered Towns/Castles will have low Garrisons/Militias.


But these are same people who are blissfully unaware A.I. doesn't need horses for upgrades either LOL. But hey good luck getting enough war horses to upgrade your troops now (nevermind if you can actually afford them) with all the horse changes they made. Just another quality patch that fixes as many things as it breaks, same as always.
I disagree, it's possible to create a baseline for objective and sort objectives through more believable systems like behind army commander's personality traits or position in the realm (being clan t4 / t5 / t6 being more likely to seek harder targets) - any army above 1k will win over AI at all times on sieges, so it already has a predictable pattern.

Add to that scouting, and as such if a lord AI party spots a garrison - they get the intel.

Don't try to excuse them for making a crap system...

if you try to dodge the argument talking about defensive / offensive than I have to stop you, offensive's always more risky and the AI always has a massive chunk of chance of getting their arses handed in platter by the defending AI - that's because it's tactical math, you'll always be outnumbered when attacking - meaning you'll have to deal with garrison + possible defending parties + possible defending army. Taking into account the pattern behavior that emerges even with all-sight cheating, just force armies that intend to besiege towns to a minimum of 1k-1.2k and it'll be fine.
As for more intricate systems, just place a radius of intel dependent on their scouting level being slightly higher than the PC sight range and it'll be fine. (if PC at scouting 50 sees 50, give them 10% more distance on "reading detection"). They must blind the AI, otherwise it'll always feel artificial - again, making for a crap RTS (where there's zero strategy - just fooling the AI)

their job's simple: create an environment for the player than making their AI behave accordingly as to simulate a player, not this abomination
 
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Simple reason. It's easier to code it that way. I'll explain the more difficult alternative, but before that I'll say I'm sure most players already knew about this issue. It's so obvious and has been around since Warband.

The easiest alternative to omniscience would be to limit their knowledge by locality, like you proposed. This wouldn't really work because it'd still be omniscience, only smaller. Like Bluko mentioned, it will cause some problems such as AI not being to able to know to support faraway allies, etc. The next logical step would be to implement a messenger system. If you want the realistic ways, it would be to create small (1-3 riders) parties of messengers to run from a lord to another to deliver information, which can be intercepted by bandits, etc. However, this would burden the hardware too much, and there's a possibility that a scenario exists in which all messengers are intercepted (a horde of parties blocking a narrow path, etc). Okay, just make it messenger birds then. In that case the game doesn't need to create actual parties and just pretend lords are sending them around. Then you will realize that it's back to the currently-implemented system. They could improve the information system by taking into account the distance between a lord and another. Give a delay between the actual event and AI lords receiving info about that event. Will that do anything? Yes, but not much. I wouldn't be surprised if they already tried this and decided against it due to computation, stability, or gameplay reason. It may result in AI being too slow to actually achieve anything, for one.
 
Not only the fief power, but AI also knows things like what villages have recruits and if a fief has food or not. If you go to the target of a starving army (remember those....) and buy the food you will see it instantly change destination. It's very annoying and I agree the factions should have a plan like "X is our target because REASONE" not just because of numbers. But we're probably stuck with cheaty AI on the unmodded game.
 
Not only the fief power, but AI also knows things like what villages have recruits and if a fief has food or not. If you go to the target of a starving army (remember those....) and buy the food you will see it instantly change destination. It's very annoying and I agree the factions should have a plan like "X is our target because REASONE" not just because of numbers. But we're probably stuck with cheaty AI on the unmodded game.

Is it annoying? I mean, we're using the same cheaty tactics to see where the starving army is going.

And don't we get pop ups on the right side of our screen telling us if we're being besieged? Or declared war upon?

Let's imagine that everyone is using messengers and scouts. We're being informed by messengers and the armies are using scouts to see what target to hit or where to buy food. But if these scouts & messengers were to be shown on the worldmap it'd be full of them. So they're invisible because they're faster than the speed of light.
 
I don't mind the cheaty AI in this respect. It functions more like it should, as above, with the implication of scouts and informants and basic intel.

One of my bugbears is around how the game has limited our ability to interact normally with our own fiefs and parties, or those of our vassals. They've started to address this with messengers coming to issue marriage and mercenary requests etc. But there is still more to do. The AI on the other hand behaves as if it does have full logistics and comms and scouts and forces capable of communicating.

It's like a world view version of our lack of ability to issue specific orders on the battlefield. Only that spearman who miraculously turns about to see you charging just in time is scaled up to an army that does the same.
 
Simple reason. It's easier to code it that way. I'll explain the more difficult alternative, but before that I'll say I'm sure most players already knew about this issue. It's so obvious and has been around since Warband.

The easiest alternative to omniscience would be to limit their knowledge by locality, like you proposed. This wouldn't really work because it'd still be omniscience, only smaller. Like Bluko mentioned, it will cause some problems such as AI not being to able to know to support faraway allies, etc. The next logical step would be to implement a messenger system. If you want the realistic ways, it would be to create small (1-3 riders) parties of messengers to run from a lord to another to deliver information, which can be intercepted by bandits, etc. However, this would burden the hardware too much, and there's a possibility that a scenario exists in which all messengers are intercepted (a horde of parties blocking a narrow path, etc). Okay, just make it messenger birds then. In that case the game doesn't need to create actual parties and just pretend lords are sending them around. Then you will realize that it's back to the currently-implemented system. They could improve the information system by taking into account the distance between a lord and another. Give a delay between the actual event and AI lords receiving info about that event. Will that do anything? Yes, but not much. I wouldn't be surprised if they already tried this and decided against it due to computation, stability, or gameplay reason. It may result in AI being too slow to actually achieve anything, for one.
mate - just like we get constant intel of allied armies and sieges they could get the same intel at the same style - I've even thrown in the "scouting" crap as in AI gathers intel from all realm parties as they travel through the map - but should remain oblivious to areas and fiefs which were never scouted. - for obvious reasons the scouting should be limited to vassal nobles while never working for mercenary clans (that because mercenaries join kingdoms at random over completely absurd positions in the map)
There's absolutely no reason not to do that other than pure laziness - any basic RTS has systems like that in place...

As an observation: having messengers intercepted by walls of parties is a strategy - if you make the AI more conservative and less of a muppet it would not try to besiege or raid a settlement on the other side of the planet. If it did it'd be punished - end of story.
The idea of having scouts makes for more tactical approach, and as such it could also be given as a choice for the player to send scouting parties beforehand to gather intel on possible targets - much like that ridiculously useless quest lords give us when they are fielding armies.
Now - can there be trouble for the scouts? Hell yes, and that's the entire purpose - intel plays a large part on wars, and if we're in a sandbox war simulator, the bare minimum would be to give the play pertinent strategical playing field for such - not the case in-game, and one of the major reasons why it's so boring and everybody complains...

The only correct answer for a really good medieval RTS sandbox in such a small map would be having some key elements to take into account as rules of a chess game:
Intel
Supply lines
Army speed
weather/season
communication
and strategical positioning.

currently we have: none of the above, not even political RTS at all - vassals are just mockups to inflate numbers and annoy you with random votes - but there's absolutely zero meaningful interactions with the player.
So the PC ends up in a situation where: we have no relationships in-game at all making the entire holster of NPCs utterly meaningless - AI has zero simulation of personality / ambitions / objectives other than endlessly fighting - even war declarations make no sense - just numbers of "you did this thing for X npc, here have some numbers to improve your other numbers" (like reducing defection chance, vassal recruitment chance, voting in your favor chance - it dies there) - there are no strategies involved on the campaign map at all, just fooling the AI because it's omnivision makes it predictable, and as such the best way to deal with it is to set-up deliberate traps like emptying a garrison and hiding in bushes - for the omniscience the AI has seems to revolve around fiefs, but not enemy armies - this means you can literally wipe all factions by placing a single trap fief with nearby woods and you're golden - hence repeat 50 times in roll, congrats you've "beaten" the game...

So, what am I really revindicating here is that they actually give us a game that demands at least some thinking. Not mindless repetitive single actions to achieve the same thing over and over and over again. AI must obey rules, but not pointlessly, rather so the game becomes more strategical - place the player under the same rules - this doesn't mean having the exact same tools or means to exist under the rules, but rather doing it effectively, not literally. - the same goes for every single aspect of the game - where are noble enterprises? Noble caravans? Where are the fallen landless nobles committing crimes they so proudly announced way back? I mean, we're basically playing with ourselves, quite literally, there's no real challenge other than mindless boring grind and eventual defeats during early game if we played wrong or went for the hardest possible challenge ill-prepared. That's why most ppl only enjoy up to mid-game - because once you are past that pt (forming a kingdom / started conquering) it's just "wax on wax off" until the entire map's monochromatic...
 
Until we get proper A.I. learning in video games - computers will always have to cheat to be competitive. Just look at the way most RTS's scale 'difficulty'.
 
Speaking of the all-knowing-AI, did they fix that mechanic where when a war has started, and you are in a faction, another faction clan member(s) would instantly start an army/armies and your clan members would instantly be gobbled up by said army/armies? I always found that really irritating as it never gave you a chance to start your own army with your own clan members and having to disband theirs.
 
Until we get proper A.I. learning in video games - computers will always have to cheat to be competitive. Just look at the way most RTS's scale 'difficulty'.
well, did you even read what I was talking about? The term AI is technically wrong but I would not start using "VI" considering most ppl don't even understand the difference... - You should read before crapposting on others.
almost forgot, here have some trophy:
captain-obvious-thank-you.gif

Speaking of the all-knowing-AI, did they fix that mechanic where when a war has started, and you are in a faction, another faction clan member(s) would instantly start an army/armies and your clan members would instantly be gobbled up by said army/armies? I always found that really irritating as it never gave you a chance to start your own army with your own clan members and having to disband theirs.
nope - they still steal all your clan parties almost instantly. Only exception being when I had 30+ clans in my realm. The only vanilla prevention to that is basically rolling personal companion army at all times - because we also have no way to predict war declarations from AI upon us. Otherwise we could reserve that for "pre-declarations" - though you can always use influence to disband AI armies it's a very annoying thing.
 
well, did you even read what I was talking about? The term AI is technically wrong but I would not start using "VI" considering most ppl don't even understand the difference... - You should read before crapposting on others.
almost forgot, here have some trophy:
captain-obvious-thank-you.gif


nope - they still steal all your clan parties almost instantly. Only exception being when I had 30+ clans in my realm. The only vanilla prevention to that is basically rolling personal companion army at all times - because we also have no way to predict war declarations from AI upon us. Otherwise we could reserve that for "pre-declarations" - though you can always use influence to disband AI armies it's a very annoying thing.
I was simply making the point that this sort of thing is common and until we can get something like Open AI available at a lower cost it will remain so.... I'll remember to not bother being polite to you in the future.
 
I was simply making the point that this sort of thing is common and until we can get something like Open AI available at a lower cost it will remain so.... I'll remember to not bother being polite to you in the future.
not quite, we have good VI from RTS games that work pretty well - it's about programming quality VI by emulating human behavior - yes the VI will resort to "cheats", but it can be properly emulated in a way that it "feels" organic. It's about TW wanting to do it, not about it being hard/harder nor about technology. AI technology learns on the fly and it doesn't emulate intelligence, it actually has "intelligence" in the form of being able to learn - Open AI and others basically sample the game a billion times and lookup for the optimal path to achieve the game's objective - that would make for a crap video game in a game like WB or BL - simply because those aren't competitive games - but rather RPing Sandboxes with theoretical simulations (in BL we have no simulations at all though).

I'll remember to not bother being polite to you in the future.
there's no need to - I'm not made of snowflakes - if I present the opportunity for it - please mock my face like there's no tomorrow, go bat****, i'll probably laugh along.

PS: Once you get used to my humor you'll probably never feel offended by my remarks and mockery, I'm always doing it in a sporty way, not out of hate
 
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Oh stellar. Another reason to not to pick the game back up.
I just use a bunch of mods to make it even bearable to play, but the base game is so shallow that even with all these mods I end up hitting boredom walls where I start messing the save by doing random stuff for no reason... Once I even gave up my own kingdom and left it just so I had something to do - mentioned this because there are mods that prevent that (ai from kidnapping your clan parties) - but than again, doesn't help much in the long run
 
I just use a bunch of mods to make it even bearable to play, but the base game is so shallow that even with all these mods I end up hitting boredom walls where I start messing the save by doing random stuff for no reason... Once I even gave up my own kingdom and left it just so I had something to do - mentioned this because there are mods that prevent that (ai from kidnapping your clan parties) - but than again, doesn't help much in the long run

Yeah I hear you. I've stated before that 90% of my time in BL has been with mods. The initial 10% was during the first few months when they had regular patches and I wanted to see how it had changed.

Following that, the mods I enjoyed playing with stopped updating and I just fell out of enjoyment with the game, partially because of the mods not updating, partially because this whole the development process leaving me with a sour taste, and partially because the updated mods can only do so much with the game.

Honestly, there is so many 'things' wrong with the game that just has me getting to a certain point, whether that's early, mid or late game that's just makes me stop and go "okay F this" and drop the play-through.
 
just like we get constant intel of allied armies and sieges they could get the same intel at the same style
Which ways? We get different kinds of Intel in different ways, including the instant omniscience you're complaining about. Example of this, is how we instantly get a notification that a lord made an army and we can even pin-track them.

The other way we gain Intel is by taking the initiative and go to certain directions ourselves. Both humans and AI can't do this without data. Humans have several ways to deal with this. First is by memory. We remember that fief A is such and such and make a decision based on that information. The info is not up to date, but it can be used. Now, should we implement this kind of memorization for the AI parties? No. That would be too heavy both memory-wise and computation-wise. Not to mention how error-prone it is.

Second is by intuition, which is really just a more extended and compiled memory. We can feel like taking this fief is safer and stuff. It all comes from our life-long experience and common sense. Can we program this into AI? Yes machine learning exists, but it needs way more data than the first method. One way to make it lighter is by hardcoding the model, but this approach is not practical either because this is a moddable sandbox game. The AI needs to be flexible.

Your other suggestions such as mercenaries having a separate intel system, saying messenger getting intercepted is good, supply lines, etc are impractical. Not everyone wants that level of difficulty. Many people will find it annoying when their messengers always get intercepted. You also ignored how I said it will be too heavy. You don't realize just how ridiculous it can get. A single party will dispatch one party to every single party it wants to communicate with. The map will be flooded, and the number of errors that can happen is enormous.

Look, I hope you won't get offended like last time, but this is exactly why I brought up your lack of coding abilities in the past. You don't see whether a suggestion is practical or not. If you were an engineer, you would. The problem with you not being a coder is that you can't get the details on data and its functions correctly. Like this omniscience thing. It actually only boils down to when AI should get certain data and when they should act on it. If you were a coder you would know how risky and error-prone it is to defer a task asynchronously. You would know it's more practical to have the current real-time information system. It's more accurate and less error-prone. By extension it's also easier for modders to work with it.

You talk about being a good sport when it comes to discussion, and while I doubt it due to your past behavior, I will assume you really are a good sport and say this. Your kind, non-engineers who think you know it all, is actually a big problem in this industry. Giving an impractical but good-sounding suggestions often ruin a development. Because management will like it, but it's actually impractical. It's a waste of time to implement impractical suggestions and it will cause problems later.

Most of your complaints are of this nature. You complain that such and such aren't "up to standard," "not realistic," or "AI aren't actually smart." Well that's what software engineering is really about. Faking stuff. We can't implement reality 1:1. Instead we model it. AI is also not supposed to posses actual intelligence. It just needs to act like it is intelligent. I'm saying all this not to take you down. All I want is to teach you that you don't actually know it all, nobody is, so be more respectful. It's just nice for everyone. Don't you realize that you offend people everywhere you go and that people are ignoring you now? It's because you're disrespectful. It's not about snowflakes. People just don't want to talk to you. You're free to doubt my intention, but at the end of the day, discussions are not going anywhere if you keep ignoring practicality.
 
To be honest, all the ways I think to fix this “issue” would mean having to invest a huge amount of work for actually improving the gameplay like 1.01%. For example, AI lords visiting empty villages when trying to recruit units wont add anything for me but making the AI more incompetent than it is currently is (even when the Bannerlord AI is pretty much ok compared to other sandbox RTS).
 
Speaking of the all-knowing-AI, did they fix that mechanic where when a war has started, and you are in a faction, another faction clan member(s) would instantly start an army/armies and your clan members would instantly be gobbled up by said army/armies? I always found that really irritating as it never gave you a chance to start your own army with your own clan members and having to disband theirs.
Very annoying. I keep my family in a constant army and only deploy them in person and back onto my army because of this.
 
There's absolutely no reason not to do that other than pure laziness - any basic RTS has systems like that in place...
I don't believe this is the case ATM for any pc game with thousands of independent ai parties active simultaneously in a sandbox. I suspect it will only be the case for pc games where the number of active parties is small/manageable. It's unreasonable (or disingenuous) to discount practical difficulties and accuse the Developers of laziness for optimising their game to their published minimum spec hardware.
 
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