BEAST - Bannerlord Early Access Skirmish Tournament

[Teugata]

Most of these questions have already been answered in the past suggestion thread, especially with the necessity of certain rules or the unworkable ideas of promotion which might benefit a few, but prove unworkable really quick.

Not really.

I strongly feel that the time suggestion has never actually been considered since it heavily depends on the preference of the majority. So far all claims that BST is the best way for the majority has no foundation other than we say it so its true. Hold an actual vote so we can find out and if BST is indeed more popular I will forever hold my peace. Bear in mind that some people repeatedly seem to change or misunderstand my proposal in their response so one last time for clarity I don't propose using a different timezone, I propose to allow the usage of GMT/UTC (+0) or GMT+X time zone notations for scheduling matches with or without keeping BST next to it but call it BST/GMT+1. In my mind it makes no sense to mandate a time format unfamiliar to anyone not British and at the same time forbid the usage of GMT which the majority of the world actively uses to communicate and translate time between timezones.

For the second point the suggestion was answered yet in a very vague manner. To be fair out of the three this is the point I care least about yet I still belief we deserve a more significant answer other then do it because we tell you to, since we refuse to tell you the details for some security reasons. Surely you can tell us a bit more about it without invoking a mass breach of security, especially since it is already as easy as using a different steam account and signing up under a different name to cheat the system.

On the third topic I actually did think it through and if there are actual arguments to be made as to why it would work like **** I am definitely open to hearing them yet all I hear is that it won't work, not why it won't work. The system isn't that much different than what we have now and it would allow for the 2nd places of each division to not be bypassed and ignored by the fast track team, and for the divisions to have a little more fluidity. Especially in the lower divisions this is definitely a positive thing or teams will be stuck in their divisions forever. Either way I proposed to do a vote on couple of different options, if the majority really thinks the current system is the most fair I will again shut up and never talk about it again.

Lastly even though I have been trying my hardest to be entirely respectful and on topic about the arguments for and against these suggestions in both this thread and the previous one I feel that I am repeatedly being insulted, condescended and ridiculed. I am also not the only person who has been treated this way. First let's not forget that I too am a team captain and my word carries the voices of more people than just me and at the end of the day I am only suggesting this because I think it would benefit the community as a whole. Second and most important as an admin you have a responsibility even if you disagree with something heavily to at least take it seriously and to be able to have a respectful civil discussion about it. I said it before but otherwise this thread is just a sham and should be removed altogether.

 

[TheBard]

Not really.

I strongly feel that the time suggestion has never actually been considered since it heavily depends on the preference of the majority. So far all claims that BST is the best way for the majority has no foundation other than we say it so its true. Hold an actual vote so we can find out and if BST is indeed more popular I will forever hold my peace. Bear in mind that some people repeatedly seem to change or misunderstand my proposal in their response so one last time for clarity I don't propose using a different timezone, I propose to allow the usage of GMT/UTC (+0) or GMT+X time zone notations for scheduling matches with or without keeping BST next to it but call it BST/GMT+1. In my mind it makes no sense to mandate a time format unfamiliar to anyone not British and at the same time forbid the usage of GMT which the majority of the world actively uses to communicate and translate time between timezones.

BST worked in most tournaments in Native very fine as tournament time as many go along with the Summer time switch, meaning GMT is tournament time in winter and BST in summer. I don't see a reason to change this working system. I am by the way one of those people who learned to work with these times in Warband and it never was an issue until now.
Converting from UTC or BST into whatever time in Germany is used is for me personally not a big thing.

For the second point the suggestion was answered yet in a very vague manner. To be fair out of the three this is the point I care least about yet I still belief we deserve a more significant answer other then do it because we tell you to, since we refuse to tell you the details for some security reasons. Surely you can tell us a bit more about it without invoking a mass breach of security, especially since it is already as easy as using a different steam account and signing up under a different name to cheat the system.

The answer is simple and has been given a lot of times. Really often.
I will reiterate it one more time.
We don't have custom servers which are accessible by the administration. If we can't have them, we can't track players as easily as it might be necessary for the most fair conduct of the tournament. It's not about a mass breach of security, but I personally do this in my free time and it was already suggested to me that instead of mandating player names or tags, to just let them play and do whatever, I can check the steam accounts in the roster anyway. Non-Starter for me, extra work on top?

I will not create extra work for the few souls and myself when administering this tournament - which is largely done on the basis of screenshots - to let people have meme-fun nonstop with their names and whatever and me with 15 question marks over my head when I actually try to sort out the mess. What I will go for though is making this task easier: So people stay on their name or they will get a nice break of one week. Ultimatively it's then the team captain's choice if it's worth it. I am ready to eat the flak for it. xoxo.

On the third topic I actually did think it through and if there are actual arguments to be made as to why it would work like **** I am definitely open to hearing them yet all I hear is that it won't work, not why it won't work. The system isn't that much different than what we have now and it would allow for the 2nd places of each division to not be bypassed and ignored by the fast track team, and for the divisions to have a little more fluidity. Especially in the lower divisions this is definitely a positive thing or teams will be stuck in their divisions forever. Either way I proposed to do a vote on couple of different options, if the majority really thinks the current system is the most fair I will again shut up and never talk about it again.

I also have a suggestion regarding the promotion, if you wanna be safe, get first of your division.

Tournaments are short in nature atm and those who were the runner ups in the previous divisions would not necessarily perform well in the higher division. By going with the #1 of the division you are making the safest bet you can make.
As it was proposed for the lowest divisions it would make sense if it would be considerably larger, but I don't see reasoning to placate the egos of the 2nd permanently if we're shortening the tournaments down to 5 weeks and 6 per division.

I for once didn't say you didn't think it through. But: on the other hand, the promotion rules have been significantly changed the last tournament and some people raged about it. My team was affected as well because we played a brilliant season in Div C. What did we get for it? "It is favoritism that you get a play off for Div A!!11"
Yes. Sure. We got 12-0'd so ...

First let's not forget that I too am a team captain and my word carries the voices of more people than just me and at the end of the day I am only suggesting this because I think it would benefit the community as a whole. Second and most important as an admin you have a responsibility even if you disagree with something heavily to at least take it seriously and to be able to have a respectful civil discussion about it. I said it before but otherwise this thread is just a sham and should be removed altogether.

I have a responsibility and I take it very seriously but I am not getting paid for this! So I will try to solve most of these problems in my free time. Previously it has been communicated by some individuals that they dont care about the free time of admins or the fact that they have some boundaries, but I for once do care about my free time.

One more thing about free time: I actually do read this thread. But I don't have the time and energy to write walls of texts for each thing and considering that something so minor as the time zone rule is triggering a wall of text is just reinforcing me not engaging in page long discussions - because I would then lack the time to actually work on the tournament. Then other people will complaint about the fact that important stuff is not getting done.
The work of the Administration is not only reading this thread. I do read it, but really lack the time to write up walls of texts justifying decisions of rejection of 'minor' suggestions. If this simple fact makes the thread a sham - so be it.

 

[Einarcf]

How about 2nd place gets preference above the relegated team if there is ever a shortage of teams in that division?

With the nature of competitive Bannerlord, teams disband all the time, so it might be not an insignificant boon.

 

[Teugata]

I am by the way one of those people who learned to work with these times in Warband and it never was an issue until now.
Converting from UTC or BST into whatever time in Germany is used is for me personally not a big thing.

So vote on it to see what people really want. It's not about being difficult, it's about dictating something that people find alien to work with yet refusing to allow the usage of a perfectly sound internationally accepted time system meant for this exact thing. You are mandating us to use a relic of a time most of us never experienced.

At the very least since everyone seems to agree that translating times is not a big thing or an issue in general allow people to use both BST and standard time denotation in the form of GMT+0 or GMT+X which a lot of people are way more comfortable with.

The answer is simple and has been given a lot of times. Really often.
I will reiterate it one more time.
We don't have custom servers which are accessible by the administration. If we can't have them, we can't track players as easily as it might be necessary for the most fair conduct of the tournament. It's not about a mass breach of security, but I personally do this in my free time and it was already suggested to me that instead of mandating player names or tags, to just let them play and do whatever, I can check the steam accounts in the roster anyway. Non-Starter for me, extra work on top?

I will not create extra work for the few souls and myself when administering this tournament - which is largely done on the basis of screenshots - to let people have meme-fun nonstop with their names and whatever and me with 15 question marks over my head when I actually try to sort out the mess. What I will go for though is making this task easier: So people stay on their name or they will get a nice break of one week. Ultimatively it's then the team captain's choice if it's worth it. I am ready to eat the flak for it. xoxo.

Never have I said anything about fixed steam names which is entirely reasonable and acceptable yet your answer is only about this thing and doesn't answer the original question about team tags at all. This seems to be the common theme regarding this subject.

Tournaments are short in nature atm and those who were the runner ups in the previous divisions would not necessarily perform well in the higher division.

If the 2nd of the lower division was able to defeat the 5th of the higher this is actual proof that they do stand a chance in the higher division, or at the very least as much a chance as the previous 5th place. And like you mentioned a lot before seasons are short, even if them winning the promotion match was a fluke they would not survive after 5 weeks and be demoted again anyway.
Again I would suggest to vote on it, the pro's and con's are known, and it would hardly require any extra work for which a lot of volunteers have already voiced their availability and even if all of them said no I'm sure we can find more.

I have a responsibility and I take it very seriously but I am not getting paid for this! So I will try to solve most of these problems in my free time. Previously it has been communicated by some individuals that they dont care about the free time of admins or the fact that they have some boundaries, but I for once do care about my free time.

One more thing about free time: I actually do read this thread. But I don't have the time and energy to write walls of texts for each thing and considering that something so minor as the time zone rule is triggering a wall of text is just reinforcing me not engaging in page long discussions - because I would then lack the time to actually work on the tournament. Then other people will complaint about the fact that important stuff is not getting done.
The work of the Administration is not only reading this thread. I do read it, but really lack the time to write up walls of texts justifying decisions of rejection of 'minor' suggestions. If this simple fact makes the thread a sham - so be it.

As far as I remember you have always been civil so I am sorry if you feel personally offended by my earlier statement. And I am sorry if you feel like any of us making suggestions makes you feel like we don't care about your time, personally I do care for your time, but I also care for the tournament. What you are essentially saying is don't make suggestions because we have no time for them anyway.

And you know what, this I could respect, at least you would be straight and unambiguous about it. What I can't respect or accept is being insulted, condescended and ridiculed (again not you) for no reason other than that some admins don't agree with or don't comprehend what is being said.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

So vote on it to see what people really want. It's not about being difficult, it's about dictating something that people find alien to work with yet refusing to allow the usage of a perfectly sound internationally accepted time system meant for this exact thing. You are mandating us to use a relic of a time most of us never experienced.

At the very least since everyone seems to agree that translating times is not a big thing or an issue in general allow people to use both BST and standard time denotation in the form of GMT+0 or GMT+X which a lot of people are way more comfortable with.


Never have I said anything about fixed steam names which is entirely reasonable and acceptable yet your answer is only about this thing and doesn't answer the original question about team tags at all. This seems to be the common theme regarding this subject.



If the 2nd of the lower division was able to defeat the 5th of the higher this is actual proof that they do stand a chance in the higher division, or at the very least as much a chance as the previous 5th place. And like you mentioned a lot before seasons are short, even if them winning the promotion match was a fluke they would not survive after 5 weeks and be demoted again anyway.
Again I would suggest to vote on it, the pro's and con's are known, and it would hardly require any extra work for which a lot of volunteers have already voiced their availability and even if all of them said no I'm sure we can find more.


As far as I remember you have always been civil so I am sorry if you feel personally offended by my earlier statement. And I am sorry if you feel like any of us making suggestions makes you feel like we don't care about your time, personally I do care for your time, but I also care for the tournament. What you are essentially saying is don't make suggestions because we have no time for them anyway.

And you know what, this I could respect, at least you would be straight and unambiguous about it. What I can't respect or accept is being insulted, condescended and ridiculed (again not you) for no reason other than that some admins don't agree with or don't comprehend what is being said.

Teugata I like the way you are communicating.
Its efficient in lenght, it is objective, it stays on topic, it is helpfull, it is kind and very well written. Thats rare, keep up the good work, I agree 100% with what you say.

 

[Sikkimoto]

Lastly even though I have been trying my hardest to be entirely respectful and on topic about the arguments for and against these suggestions in both this thread and the previous one I feel that I am repeatedly being insulted, condescended and ridiculed.

That's not a feeling, it's a fact.

As it was proposed for the lowest divisions it would make sense if it would be considerably larger, but I don't see reasoning to placate the egos of the 2nd permanently if we're shortening the tournaments down to 5 weeks and 6 per division.

I for once didn't say you didn't think it through. But: on the other hand, the promotion rules have been significantly changed the last tournament and some people raged about it. My team was affected as well because we played a brilliant season in Div C. What did we get for it? "It is favoritism that you get a play off for Div A!!11"
Yes. Sure. We got 12-0'd so ...

At least a statement. I don't agree very much on the points made, but i respect that finally someone answered at all.

Your team was not affected. You didn't finish on second place nor were you part of the last division. You got a chance to fast promote to A and promo match showed that this team should not be part of A.
PV on the other hand won their promo match. They are first of last Division and skillwise they were set 1-2 division undervalued by the admin team. Meaning that they were a blocker for any team in division E that might be able to play in div D. In this specific case a promo match between LRA1 and LRA2 doesnt make sense, but that's by chance. And here i repeat my case that last division is the division of new teams, so the skill gap is usually wider than in other divisions.

If we take a look back at the end of season 4 every(!) lower league team won their promo match. None of these teams demoted in season 5. So i don't know where you got the idea from that these teams wouldnt perform well.

In fact all(!) teams that demoted after season 5 are teams that were put in their league by admin decision. And that's another point pro promo matches: Less promo matches mean more placing by admin decision. Let's quantify that: After season 4, 4 teams promoted by promo matches. But at the beginning of season 5 we had 13(!) teams promoting by admin will. We will still have teams placed by admin decision with more promo matches, but a promo match is giving admins a good comparision in skill that will help their decision making.

In the past some admins said "just trust us, we know how to replace new spots with the appropriate team". Simple fact checking shows that many of these decisions were suboptimal. Speaking of that, the reason why you played a "brilliant season in Div C" is bc admins undervalued your team instead of putting it directly to B where it should have been skillwise. But this is an afterthought, and it's allways easy to be wise after the event.

 

[TheBard]

In the past some admins said "just trust us, we know how to replace new spots with the appropriate team". Simple fact checking shows that many of these decisions were suboptimal. Speaking of that, the reason why you played a "brilliant season in Div C" is bc admins undervalued your team instead of putting it directly to B where it should have been skillwise. But this is an afterthought, and it's allways easy to be wise after the event.

Fun Fact: I wanted to have the C Slot to play it safe for everyone involved and also because we had the DM2 crowd on board which just were demoted there. The slot was offered to us and we were happy to take it as a good start. There was no underrating or anything, we were happy with the slot we were given and trust me, none of us were the characters which like stomps.

The reason we played a brilliant season in C is because we also put in a ****ton of effort in the breaks between the tournaments while the other teams were saying "no tournament, no tryharding" and didn't play. Perfectly fine as well, since breaks are there to have breaks. This translated for us though into the season once we unlocked our potential as a team and refined our team work.

Not everything can be blamed on the admins. Know your facts before you spread half truths.

 

[IceNoVa]

TIME ZONE/UTC-STANDARD
Regarding the time thing. Summertime will, hopefully, be abolished sooner rather than later. The main goal to go with UTC as a standard instead of GMT/BST rotation is to have a constant time. You can always check your local time with UTC and it will be easier to plan. Last time we switched during BEAST it was a nightmare, I don't need to remind anyone, especially not the admins, how many people misinterpreted the time etc.
As per usual the "this is how it was done in Warband" is not a good argument imo and opting for a vote would be the easiest way to go. There's plenty of time to make a decision on this as well, but it should be done before winter time becomes a thing again.
I get that people are used to GMT/BST, however UTC and GMT are literally the same and with a switch to UTC you can just avoid the BST confusion after some countries switch.
The gain would be less confusion when switches come, other than that business as usual.

---

TEAM TAGS
On another note, specific team tags are useful for screenshot archives etc. It's also relatively rare to have clans with multiple teams and being able to distinguish between them can be useful. From a pure in game perspective it's not necessary of course, but there's administrative benefits to it.

---

PROMOTION
Considering that seasons take 5+1 weeks it's a pretty quick event and allowing the winners to go for a two-div promotion is pretty quick considering we're talking 5, maybe 6 divisions at most.

A5 vs C1 - winner A, loser B
B1 goes A
A6 goes B
B5 vs D1 - winner B, loser C
C5 vs E1
C6 goes D
(let me know if I screwed up on this one)

The only valuable addition to that system would be imo
D5 vs F1. If there is no F1, then it'd be E2.
That might help the lower division with getting new teams to an appropriate division, if there is nothing to be expected and/or there's no openings higher up and no one higher rated willing to take those spots

---

NEW TEAMS
Not a new topic, plenty of suggestions regarding that, most of them tying in the (fast) promotion debate.

Another reminder that the switch from 8 to 6 teams per division resulted in a placement sheet and teams were put in accordingly. Since there was some change in the scene, from the team side of things, some gaps opened and distributed among eligible candidates. Now those were either follow-up teams or teams lower on the BEAST#4 result that, upon offer, took a different (higher) spot than they technically had after BEASt#4. Filling gaps is part of the administration essentials, and Aeronwen will fondly remember my proposal for placers before BEAST to adress some issues with this system. Now that system has nothing to do with this debate and was not implemented for a number of reasons. It is however an example of how a suggestion can be proposed, debated and not come to fruition, which is a reality we should all keep in mind.

---

Other than that

Several suggestions in this thread and the admins didn't even bother to answer after a week passed by. It seems to me that the only way to draw their attention is to throw a ****show. That indeed proofed to work.

If by "work" you mean a disgraceful display of entitlement and behaviour beffitting of afternoon reality trash tv, then yes. Also, those that went way beyond what is acceptable to promote their suggestions were excluded from the tournament. Mind you those exclusions are entirely justified.

I for one would like people to resort to their best behaviour and get past misunderstandings and get over built up frustration from those and other events. You cannot change anyone's mind if you don't talk to them in respectable fashion.

And while I do not see eye to eye with the administration on a sort of regular basis - people can have different opinions and all that - the existence of this thread is a way for you to get your issues out in the open and have them evaluated, not just by admins but also your fellow players. A suggestion does not necessarily have to be put in the rules, which is good, considering some suggestions are absolutely ridiculous. This thread is a tool for the admins to improve on their tournament by giving participants an open platform Treat that platform with the same respect you want your suggestions to be considered with.

 

[Sikkimoto]

Not everything can be blamed on the admins. Know your facts before you spread half truths.

But this is an afterthought, and it's allways easy to be wise after the event.

A suggestion does not necessarily have to be put in the rules [...]

I totally agree on that. But when suggestions are made they should at least be answered. Not immediatly, but i think after a week of waiting you could expect an answer. Ideally that answer should be polite, respectful and constructive.

If suggestions are simply ignored on a regular basis this thread is not a tool of improvement but a fig leave for the reluctance of change.

 

[TheBard]

Once more. I provided in depth explanation for example for the team tags and name rules. My explanation is simple: It's easier to administrate. If this gets rejected by the people I explain this to - then I don't need to discuss it, it is futile. I'm not compromising on something which makes my work as admin easier, since the measures, ways and tools I have at my hand to administer this tournament are quite limited since we don't have official tournament servers.
If even more complicated ways which mean extra work are proposed to me, I can go forward and write walls of text and try to convince said person which already has proven to be very stubborn of my point of view - which is unlikely if not impossible - or I can ignore said suggestion which was brought up 15 times most likely already, risk a ****storm and focus on actually working for this tournament. I am referring to the team tags and naming rules, just so we are not misunderstood.

To get to Teugata:

So vote on it to see what people really want. It's not about being difficult, it's about dictating something that people find alien to work with yet refusing to allow the usage of a perfectly sound internationally accepted time system meant for this exact thing. You are mandating us to use a relic of a time most of us never experienced.

I for once don't consider it as a relic as in Germany the clocks still got changed twice a year and to my knowledge atm it's not yet done with it.

At the very least since everyone seems to agree that translating times is not a big thing or an issue in general allow people to use both BST and standard time denotation in the form of GMT+0 or GMT+X which a lot of people are way more comfortable with.

I myself are able to note down in BST + x. Do it yourself as well, I don't really care what you use, you can also use a sand clock, if it's working. Tournament time so far is BST and many people are used to it as well, I don't consider the poll necessary and the tournament is starting next week so please uinderstand my point in this that I 1) deem this change right now not necessary and 2) I have more pressing matters to attend to (creating division tables etc)

Never have I said anything about fixed steam names which is entirely reasonable and acceptable yet your answer is only about this thing and doesn't answer the original question about team tags at all. This seems to be the common theme regarding this subject.

I presented the explanation: It is easier to maintain and administer. Everything which gives me a better idea of the players in the match - dont forget we're judging based on screenshots - is helpful. By instantly suspending people which try to circumvene or ignore this rule after week 1 we also encourage the team captains to maintain the discipline or risk their players getting suspended.

You don't accept or believe me that? OK. You wanted an explanation, I have given you one and it's the truth - if you reject it, it's on you.

If the 2nd of the lower division was able to defeat the 5th of the higher this is actual proof that they do stand a chance in the higher division, or at the very least as much a chance as the previous 5th place. And like you mentioned a lot before seasons are short, even if them winning the promotion match was a fluke they would not survive after 5 weeks and be demoted again anyway.
Again I would suggest to vote on it, the pro's and con's are known, and it would hardly require any extra work for which a lot of volunteers have already voiced their availability and even if all of them said no I'm sure we can find more.

There is one big problem with voting and I think this has been ignored by you because I assume you think everyone will be honest about their vote and it will be cast in the best interest and consciousness of the tournament as a whole - this is however not always the case as there might be teams voting strategically.
People will vote for what's best for their team, ie. those teams which expect to stomp through or become 5th will vote no on this while those which predict they will get 2nd or 4th might vote yes. Strategical thinking about these votes cast were also a reason why the Class Restriction vote initially was restricted to 1 vote for the parent clans sending in multiple teams. And the Class Restriction is less strategical than this.

I think your intention is good, but you underestimate the strategical thinking around you. I have seen quite a few incidents and very questionable behavior by people in this community and I consider this is a very good reason to not hold a vote about this since it will just become quickly a game of strategizing and not what's best for the tournament.

Why voting on the class restriction? It's a tradition more or less which was repeated each time after BEAST#1. We gave the responsibility about this at the start to the teams since the restrictions were deemed necessary and accepted by a broad majority of the community.

As far as I remember you have always been civil so I am sorry if you feel personally offended by my earlier statement. And I am sorry if you feel like any of us making suggestions makes you feel like we don't care about your time, personally I do care for your time, but I also care for the tournament. What you are essentially saying is don't make suggestions because we have no time for them anyway.

And you know what, this I could respect, at least you would be straight and unambiguous about it. What I can't respect or accept is being insulted, condescended and ridiculed (again not you) for no reason other than that some admins don't agree with or don't comprehend what is being said.

I do comprehend what is being said and I backed Aeronwen up on most of her positions. I might have a personal opinion differing - but on the matters of the tournament I have to try to be as unbiased and neutral as possible and be foremost and Administrator.

---

If suggestions are simply ignored on a regular basis this thread is not a tool of improvement but a fig leave for the reluctance of change.

Not implementing does not equal ignoring. I read everything but I really lack the time to write a wall of text for each suggestion.

Several suggestions in this thread and the admins didn't even bother to answer after a week passed by. It seems to me that the only way to draw their attention is to throw a ****show. That indeed proofed to work.

If Wheelchair Goblin behavior shall become the order of the day - insults, accusations, trying to bully admins into submission, harassing/stalking until we actually strike back - or this even closely will be considered legitimate for people to get admins attention, I'd like you all to take a look at Warning & Suspensions once more to make sure you know that it would be the worst route to be taken, seriously. I don't want to fill this board up even more, but I have no problems with doing it if people take an inspiring example in Wheelchair Goblin behavior.

 

[Teugata]

I for once don't consider it as a relic as in Germany the clocks still got changed twice a year and to my knowledge atm it's not yet done with it.

Germany doesn't use, has never used and will never use BST, for international time communication like the rest of the world including the Netherlands and all the other countries in Europe they use UTC/GMT+0 or GMT+X for all the reasons mentioned already. This is not just about summertime.

I myself are able to note down in BST + x.

o.o

I don't really care what you use, you can also use a sand clock, if it's working.

So allow us to use UTC/GMT+0 or GMT+X without breaking rules (and keep BST/GMT+1 next to it).

Everything which gives me a better idea of the players in the match - dont forget we're judging based on screenshots - is helpful. By instantly suspending people which try to circumvene or ignore this rule after week 1 we also encourage the team captains to maintain the discipline or risk their players getting suspended.

You don't accept or believe me that? OK. You wanted an explanation, I have given you one and it's the truth - if you reject it, it's on you.

Let's not mention player names again because for this you are 100% in the right to ban as many people as you want.
Now correct me if I'm wrong in understanding what you're saying here, the reason admins want team tags and are heavily enforcing them is because seeing the team tags on the screenshot helps them identify by looking at it on the screenshot in a glance whether players playing actually belong to this team or not.
Is this about right?

People will vote for what's best for their team

Do you blame them, why wouldn't they? This is the point of the vote but clearly democracy is dead when the right to vote is being taken away because voters are deemed untrustworthy. Besides I doubt anyone can predict what will happen next season to such an extent that this would significantly alter their decision.

but on the matters of the tournament I have to try to be as unbiased and neutral as possible and be foremost and Administrator.

I commend you for this and appreciate your integrity.

Not implementing does not equal ignoring. I read everything but I really lack the time to write a wall of text for each suggestion.

For me this was never in debate, you are free to reply if and when you have time for it in as short or large a message you seem fitting.

If Wheelchair Goblin behavior shall become the order of the day - insults, accusations, trying to bully admins into submission, harassing/stalking until we actually strike back - or this even closely will be considered legitimate for people to get admins attention

I do not condone this behavior I have seen and you should act strongly against it, yet by no means can it be used as an argument against people who have nothing to do with it and which do not behave in the same abominable manner.

 

[Aeronwen]

Lastly even though I have been trying my hardest to be entirely respectful and on topic about the arguments for and against these suggestions in both this thread and the previous one I feel that I am repeatedly being insulted, condescended and ridiculed. I am also not the only person who has been treated this way. First let's not forget that I too am a team captain and my word carries the voices of more people than just me and at the end of the day I am only suggesting this because I think it would benefit the community as a whole. Second and most important as an admin you have a responsibility even if you disagree with something heavily to at least take it seriously and to be able to have a respectful civil discussion about it. I said it before but otherwise this thread is just a sham and should be removed altogether.

It is not respectful to keep bringing up the same topic although it has been answered many times
It is not respectful to accuse the admins of bad faith or a lack of integrity because they do not agree with your suggestion.
It is not respectful to continually take up the admins time, attention and energy on subjects that have already been answered.
It is not respectful of you to lie about the admins.

---

It is a lie that I have not told you in detail why we have these rules. We even had a several hours long conversation on Steam because you expressed yourself keen to help solve the administrative reasons for the rules.

Your solution to the tag rule was that we should construct a whole different website and require every player (note every player not every team) to register there. And also to construct a mod that all players must use in game.

This solution was to solve you having to wear an extra tag in Steam for official matches.
That you seem to not understand how disproportionate your 'solution' is (and also how it can add different problems for the admins) is why I do not consider that your suggestions should be taken seriously.

In addition during our hours long talk on Steam I explained to you exactly why we do not make every detail of our (limited and basic) checks public and asked you to mainitain confidentiality. I assume this is why you keep lying that I have not explained them in detail, you are trying to goad me into making public what I asked you to keep confidential. You are now trying the same tactic with @TheBard ✂ . I do not know what your motives are but the integrity of the tournament will not be promoted by such tactics.

---

On the chance that you really want to help improve the competitive scene and are prepared to put some time and effort in yourself I have pinged you on Steam. There is a project that would be of benefit to every tournament going forwards and I would be happy to explain it to you and have you take the lead in creating it.

 

[Sikkimoto]

Not implementing does not equal ignoring. I read everything but I really lack the time to write a wall of text for each suggestion.

I did not demand a wall of text nor did i demand an implementation at all events. All i wished was some feedback in time.

You could have used one of these:
"This suggestion is not beeing considered atm"
"This suggestion is beeing considered atm"
"This suggestion has been debated and rejected in the past"
"noted, will reply later"

You can't tell me that's too time consuming and if it is, you should consider to reinforce the admin staff like Teugata proposed.

Nonetheless you did write walls of text. And as i mentioned before i respect that you took the time. But this happened after people got pissed and this is exactly what i ment in this statement.

Several suggestions in this thread and the admins didn't even bother to answer after a week passed by. It seems to me that the only way to draw their attention is to throw a ****show. That indeed proofed to work.

However, i will not annoy the admins with any suggestions in the future.

 

[Teugata]

It is not respectful to keep bringing up the same topic although it has been answered many times

I bring it up again because I still feel strongly that it's worth fighting for. Respect has nothing to do with it.

It is not respectful to accuse the admins of bad faith or a lack of integrity because they do not agree with your suggestion.

This is not about disagreeing, disagreeing is fine, it is about slanderous and demeaning behavior.

It is not respectful to continually take up the admins time, attention and energy on subjects that have already been answered.
It is not respectful of you to lie about the admins.

I never lied about the admins, if I have then proof it.

It is a lie that I have not told you in detail why we have these rules.

This is not true. You have always been vague about answering it and have never answered in detail. I can quote every answer you gave me on the subject if necessary to proof this, since we have all forum and steam chat logs available the same can be done with the points below.

Your solution to the tag rule was that we should construct a whole different website and require every player (note every player not every team) to register there.

This is not true. For one thing the solution I proposed would have only required team captains to sign up and only to submit results. For another this solution was suggested because you mentioned that you spent 8+ hours a week in administration effort for collecting the results. A solution like this would do all of this for you automatically improving your own quality of life and giving you time to spent on more important matters. It would also be more secure as it would directly verify steam identifiers opposed to steam names. The added benefit of this would have been that players can use whatever team tag or steam name they see want removing the original problem all together.

And also to construct a mod that all players must use in game.

This is not true, i never mentioned anything about a mod. I mentioned an executable that scans and uploads the result file as a substitute for a website solution.

This solution was to solve you having to wear an extra tag in Steam for official matches.

Maybe but above all it was to save admins valuable time. Don't forget this thing would cost a considerable amount of work to construct as well it wouldn't make sense to do this thing only for team tags. It would also allow for automatic statistic generation meaning it would also save time from those doing that now manually.

That you seem to not understand how disproportionate your 'solution' is (and also how it can add different problems for the admins) is why I do not consider that your suggestions should be taken seriously.

It is disproportionate if it was only for using team tags, i strongly belief that when finished a system like this will be a major benefit to this community for all tournaments and leagues which are now still done manually.



In any case the tooling I proposed weeks ago have nothing to do with the suggestions I made in this thread now, i don't understand why you are bringing this up in the first place.

 

[Aeronwen]

You can't tell me that's too time consuming and if it is, you should consider to reinforce the admin staff like Teugata proposed.

Responding to suggestions is time consuming but that is OK except when someone is either posting the same thing over and over or simply using bad faith arguments and defaming the admins.

Adding in new admins is also time consuming, training them and getting them up to speed on procedures takes a lot of time as does double checking that they have not forgotten or overlooked something.
The main problem we have is that many people want to join in order to implement their ideas but have no interest in actually spending the time to do the work that is necessary, or they attempt to do the work without going through all the steps and then we have a mess to clear up.

The more time we spend defending against the bad faith accusations and arguments here the less we have for other things such as training up new admins and preparing for the tourney start.

*snip*

I simply do not have time for this - if you want the tournament to start on time you need to stop posting misinformation.

yes the system you proposed would have saved the admins time in some respects but it would also ADD a lot of time trying to ensure compliance.

Perhaps we were talking at cross purposes and I certainly dont have time to go into it now but my impression was definately that we were talking about per player and not per team. Either way it doesn't matter, as I said more than once already; this has been tried at least twice before, many people understandably do not want to have to join such a forum in order to play in a tournament, so it is a barrier to inclusion. Assuming we will eventually have server logs (which I am still hoping will not be too long) it is largely unnecessary.

 

[Teugata]

This solution was not even part of the suggestions made. Please try to stay on topic and refrain from making this personal which you seem to be doing in every response you write.

There is no bad faith, no lies, no misinformation at least not intentional in any of my posts, i try to stick with facts only. If you have proof on the contrary supply it please but until then please stop accusing people of things without supplying proof that proofs their guilt without a doubt and which would warrant such malice towards them.

 

[hoonii]

I hope this is enough to clarify the situation.

 

[Teugata]

I hope this is enough to clarify the situation.

GMT+X and UTC+X in their everyday usage refer to the same thing. However it seems that calling it GMT+X has become obsolete so henceforth I will only call it UTC. We should allow the usage of UTC time notation.

Coordinated Universal Time - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[TheBard]

I hope this is enough to clarify the situation.

That does it, nice clarification, thanks. Time Zone discussion shall be over exactly here, thank you @hoonii

 

[Teugata]

That's not what I am referring to at all. There's a distinct important difference between the timezone GMT as used in places and the universal mean time standard. The fact that some timezones are also GMT during some part of the year is merely a happy overlap.