BEAST - Bannerlord Early Access Skirmish Tournament

[IceNoVa]

Yes, it would be easier for admins, but as I am sure you are aware from Warband it can make matches impossible. Sometimes a team just doesnt have enough players at start time and they can draft in anyone who isnt already playing for another team. TBH this isnt so likely to happen in the higher divs but for newer or casual teams it is necessary.

People could just organise their squads more orderly so they are prepared in advance. Just yesterday SFB signed 1or3, formerly GG and hence Div A player, onto their squad in an attempt to boost their squad and presumably just to have a better chance to win their last match. I doubt 1or3 will stay with SFB long.
And that is imo unacceptable, since people will occasionally jump in "for the lolz" and that is contrary to the team spirit of any tournament. Teams should be encouraged to maintain and improve long-term, develop sustainable rosters etc.

Yes, you should be able to bolster your squad during the season. Yes, you should also be able to add players in order to have a playable squad of 6. But bringing in new players in already large squads 90 minutes before a match starts does look bad and like exploiting the rules you put there in good faith.

It would be perfectly fine if the matchmaking deadline would also be a deadline for roster changes. If a team agrees to play on a date, they should have their players ready and comitted for that day.
Still, the scenario from above would be possible, but matches on wednesday are rare and ultimately this isn't about this particular match, but about the principle. And in principle there should be some limit to adding new players.

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I'll show you in roughly 2 months kiddo.

[MODERATOR]
How about you keep the debate on topic and omit the condescending pseudo-threats.
[/MODERATOR]

Imo a squad that withdrew or simply didn't sign up again has no palpable claim on a spot in any higher division. Don't get me wrong, AE would surely fit in somewhere higher, but granting spots in a higher division out of nowhere is inacceptable for a fair and long-going competition.
However, if there were to be an open spot somewhere higher up, you could of course ask to be put there as a replacement team and in case the next-in line from the existing team is not eager to take it, you could go for it. You could also go for a match to see who is the better fit, either way is fine. Having played in Division X previously would certainly aid that claim and only that claim.

But never, under any circumstances, should an existing team be forcefully demoted to make way for a "better squad" or be forced into a relegation match, when they earned their spot in the previous season.
To my understanding, obody claimed that so far. But let's just be very clear about that: That'd be a scenario I can see some people be okay with, but any reasonable person here should start screaming bloody murder if that ever made its way onto this tournament.

And lastly: Nobody in their right mind would dispute that administrating a tournament would be a piece of cake, so, as per every season, special thanks to our admin staff to keeping thing going.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

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How about you keep the debate on topic and omit the condescending pseudo-threats.

Imo a squad that withdrew or simply didn't sign up again has no palpable claim on a spot in any higher division. Don't get me wrong, AE would surely fit in somewhere higher, but granting spots in a higher division out of nowhere is inacceptable for a fair and long-going competition.
However, if there were to be an open spot somewhere higher up, you could of course ask to be put there as a replacement team and in case the next-in line from the existing team is not eager to take it, you could go for it. You could also go for a match to see who is the better fit, either way is fine. Having played in Division X previously would certainly aid that claim and only that claim.

But never, under any circumstances, should an existing team be forcefully demoted to make way for a "better squad" or be forced into a relegation match, when they earned their spot in the previous season.
To my understanding, obody claimed that so far. But let's just be very clear about that: That'd be a scenario I can see some people be okay with, but any reasonable person here should start screaming bloody murder if that ever made its way onto this tournament.

And lastly: Nobody in their right mind would dispute that administrating a tournament would be a piece of cake, so, as per every season, special thanks to our admin staff to keeping thing going.

Never threatened anyone would be forced to be demoted, simply that we've obviously shown ourselves to require a higher slot. If RM didn't play for a tournament, would Kwen also suggest they start at Div E? It's a ridiculous position to hold and clearly unworkable, but that person has 0 interest in proposing workable solutions and simply wants a pat on the back for maintaining a team for a year. Congrats to them I guess.

Obviously the actual starting position would be dependent on the team that have signed up; there are changes each tournament.

Lastly, either be a mod or someone posting their opinion; don't do both.

 

[Ikea Knight]

@Kwenthrith la Badine @OurGloriousLeader
There is really no point in arguing about this.

In our tournament, returning teams from the immediat earlier season have priority.

But since AE has played in our tournament before, I can see why they want to have their old spot back.

If AE would sign up again we would try to give them their old spot, if it's free. If it's not we won't demote other teams in favour of AE. However even if we can't give AE their original spot we would try to give them a spot closest to it (without demoting others)

There is no point in placing AE in the lowest division out of spite or because they left. That wouldn't be a fun experience for any of the new teams (like KoV) that actually are looking for fun and fair games and actually belong in the lowest division.

As always it is hard to predict the seeding list before sign up is closed. Which brings me to another point:

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When it comes to the new promotion system I am really sorry about releasing that info so late. The new system as it is right now is finished for months now and I simply thought we already released it. I am really sorry for the oversight but I still think the system is superior, so we will use starting with the current season.

Here is the thing though. Every season I have lots of teams asking to be placed in higher position, looking to fill spots of not returning teams. It really reminds me of vultures circling a carcass.
There simply are a lot of teams trying to get into a higher division without really having the skill for it or claiming they were just unlucky in this ONE match. And everytime teams get upset when I do not give them the spot they wanted, the usually are saying the team that I gave it to didn't deserve it.

I really hope that the new system will mitigate this somewhat.

I have a couple of things I hope for in this new system.

• By having more but smaller divisions I hope that the skill difference between teams in one division but also between the top and bottom of adjacent divisions is lower. In previous Beasts there often was already a huge skill gap between teams within one division.
• Because we have smaller divisions, we have shorter seasons. That means we can play more seasons in a shorter time but that also means that teams will face the same opponents in a shorter time. This is why I wanted to have more fluidity in each divisions without the team composition to feel random every season.
• Which is why i wanted to have auto promotions. Different to previous Beasts, the skill gap should be smaller ( see the first point) so auto promotions seemed like a feature that add fluidity to the divisions without ruining the balance too much. Also it was something a part of the community asked for before since, to them it, felt unrewarding to win a division without being automatically promoted. Now winning a division always gives you a reward (and hopefully a sense of accomplishment)
• I was never a big fan of manually filling open team spots since it's hard to estimate a new team's skill and even if we do our best, there will be always unwanted bias when make our choices. We're not robots afterall. As I said, the skillgaps should be smaller now and simply moving up teams when there is a open spot above them, is something that will appear more reasonable to us from now on. I want to stress that simply moving up teams won't be the status quo from now on. But I think, with smaller divisions, it will be the proper solution more often. However the most important thing is still the balance in Beast. So if a strong new team joins, we will always try to put them in a division where they fit in the most.
• Lastly about fast promotion. Fast promotion matches are designed to fail.They are supposed to be very difficult. When a team tries to play against another team that is more than 6 spots higher in the table we expect them to fail most of the time. People act like it will be easy to skip divisions but I really doubt it is. However if they win against the overwhelming odds they sure deserve to join that division. Think of it as playing against somebody that is 8 spots higher than you in the table and not as the 2nd last spot of a higher division.

 

[IceNoVa]

@Kwenthrith la Badine @OurGloriousLeader
If AE would sign up again we would try to give them their old spot if there if it's free. If it's not we won't demote other teams in favour of AE. However even if we can't give AE their original spot we would try to give them a spot closest to it (without demoting others)

That is the best way to proceed in these situations in my book, glad to see the adminstration agree.

Certainly everyone agrees that good teams should reach their most appropriate division as quickly as possible, so that the matches within each division are as fun and closely-matched as possible. However there are principles for a long-term event that must not be tampered with to benefit any squad by negatively affecting others.

All in all the system you explained seems to be the most reasonable way to go forward.

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Never threatened anyone would be forced to be demoted, simply that we've obviously shown ourselves to require a higher slot.

But never, under any circumstances, should an existing team be forcefully demoted to make way for a "better squad" or be forced into a relegation match, when they earned their spot in the previous season.
To my understanding, nobody claimed that so far.

We are in agreement there, possibly a typo (in the word nobody) on my end allowed for this misunderstanding.

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[MODERATOR]

Lastly, either be a mod or someone posting their opinion; don't do both.

I have no quarrel with you, but since I am a mod I will do what I signed up to do. I am also a player, captain and advisor in this tournament and will express my opinion as such.
You're welcome to chastise me about abusing my moderation powers and if you feel that I did that, write a complaint via email to the forum administration @[email protected].
[/MODERATOR]

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

That is the best way to proceed in these situations in my book, glad to see the adminstration agree.

Everyone agrees except for Kwen.

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I have no quarrel with you, but since I am a mod I will do what I signed up to do. I am also a player, captain and advisor in this tournament and will express my opinion as such.
You're welcome to chastise me about abusing my moderation powers and if you feel that I did that, write a complaint via email to the forum administration @[email protected].

Do it, but do it separately. Consider yourself chastised.

 

[IceNoVa]

Do it, but do it separately. Consider yourself chastised.

[MODERATOR]
Hope this clears things up.
Back to topic
[/MODERATOR]

 

[Aeronwen]

I just want to make clear (again) that last season we had some higher spots to fill and too many skilled teams to place in them. AE (and only AE) said 'place us anywhere, we will fight our way up'.
The problem with that was a problem for the other teams (who were stomped), not for AE.

If I do have a bias for any team it would be towards AE who have matured (with the possible exception of OGL ) from chippy teens (early 20's) to sensible and admirable men, many of whom have contributed enormously over many years to the M&B competitive scene.

I very much look forward to AE returning to Bannerlord. I hope for Azans map making and analyzing of every aspect of the game, for Deacon and Scar to run the best tournament of the game, for M to runa duel server and generally be the most popular person in the scene, even for OGL to run tournaments and continue to contribute to the improvement of teh game etc...

 

[Ondine la Badine]

Well at least things are said clearly now.
Special treatment is awarded to arbitrary chosen teams, and rules may change/be created at any time to favor those few.

Have fun in dragging new players into this scheme, if ever getting the player base larger was the goal.
I will have tried to represent the no-names (that make a competitive game exist), good luck to the next one that tries to break this connivance circle open.

Kwen.

 

[Aeronwen]

Well at least things are said clearly now.
Special treatment is awarded to arbitrary chosen teams, and rules may change/be created at any time to favor those few.

Have fun in dragging new players into this scheme, if ever getting the player base larger was the goal.
I will have tried to represent the no-names (that make a competitive game exist), good luck to the next one that tries to break this connivance circle open.

Kwen.

That's a bizarre misinterpretation of what has been said so far.

AE were not given any special treatment - quite the opposite. Nor were any other team.
The rules were not changed. They were simply not completed for this season until very late. The rules as finalised are a logical result of the changes to the tournament as Ikea already spelled out in detail.

It is not OK to continually misrepresent and slander anyone, let alone the people working for the good of the community.

 

[Dark ?]

Hello, are there any dates planned for the next edition of the tournament?

 

[Aeronwen]

Hello, are there any dates planned for the next edition of the tournament?

I think there may be a KO invitational, if so we will delay to make space for that. If not, we will go ahead after 2 weeks break.
However summer is traditionally a difficult time for teams as players often are away on hols. Anyone have a view on how that will play out this year?

 

[TheBard]

Hello, are there any dates planned for the next edition of the tournament?

Yes, soon, have fun and you are playing in Division D!

 

[Sral23]

Yes, soon, have fun and you are playing in Division D!

kinda toxic ngl

 

[Ondine la Badine]

If AE would sign up again we would try to give them their old spot, if it's free. If it's not we won't demote other teams in favour of AE. However even if we can't give AE their original spot we would try to give them a spot closest to it (without demoting others)

Free spot -> put AE in instead of the team just below -> favors AE at the expense of the teams below that don't get that spot.

If I do have a bias for any team it would be towards AE

Do you have a bias or not? Why say this if there is no bias? Polemic?

AE were not given any special treatment - quite the opposite.

Ok seems you have no bias. Was just polemic after all

Special treatment is awarded to arbitrary chosen teams, and rules may change/be created at any time to favor those few.

Arbitrary chosen teams = not specifically "named" teams, but teams that enter the "elite" scope you made this climbing rule for.
And if you say the rule is made for the lower teams, you are forgetting that it spoils the 2nd of any lower division from getting a promotion match. It helps get the "elite" go up faster, but slows down the progression of the "non elite".

It is not OK to continually misrepresent and slander anyone, let alone the people working for the good of the community.

I totally agree. I never talked about any specific person (I talked about "admins") and never slandered anyone. I pointed out rule were made for a few and not the majority of the players. Never implied there was a malicious intention behind it.
The only guy I went at is OGL because he freely accused me of lying (without any facts to back up his words), and I still kept respectful.


Anyway, I agree going further would not make sense.

Farewell.

Kwen.

 

[Ikea Knight]

Free spot -> put AE in instead of the team just below -> favors AE at the expense of the teams below that don't get that spot.

Good job at 100% misinterpreting what I was saying.

 

[Silvernj]

However summer is traditionally a difficult time for teams as players often are away on hols. Anyone have a view on how that will play out this year?

I think you should wait for 1.6. The scene is rather exhausted and tired of playing kind of cancer gameplay, so perhaps 1.6 will bring hype and some players and teams back into the game.

 

[Dextrus]

What is the problem with putting AE in division C or B if spots are empty? They are clearly better than Div C and below. If you put them down there everyone will be crying about nonstop stomps.

Would you Kwen, also want DM to start in Div E if they didn’t play for one season?

 

[Aeronwen]

Free spot -> put AE in instead of the team just below -> favors AE at the expense of the teams below that don't get that spot.

Do you have a bias or not? Why say this if there is no bias? Polemic?

Ok seems you have no bias. Was just polemic after all


Arbitrary chosen teams = not specifically "named" teams, but teams that enter the "elite" scope you made this climbing rule for.
And if you say the rule is made for the lower teams, you are forgetting that it spoils the 2nd of any lower division from getting a promotion match. It helps get the "elite" go up faster, but slows down the progression of the "non elite".


I totally agree. I never talked about any specific person (I talked about "admins") and never slandered anyone. I pointed out rule were made for a few and not the majority of the players. Never implied there was a malicious intention behind it.
The only guy I went at is OGL because he freely accused me of lying (without any facts to back up his words), and I still kept respectful.


Anyway, I agree going further would not make sense.

Farewell.

Kwen.

Actually there is, hidden in that jumble of bull****, one issue that we were/are concerned about.

it is this:
As long as there are no new teams to the tournament this system works perfectly. it is effectively a one team up and one team down promotion/demotion. so in most divs 2 out of 6 teams will change and the 4 middle teams will remain in the div.
This is a balanced and sensible system that promotes teh aim of havingteams play against teams of similar skill.

However if a new team of considerable skill joins and is placed in the lowest div then they will inevitably promote, meaning that the team that would otherwise have won the lowest div won't.
Worse if 2 skilled teams enter the tourney in the lowest div only one of them will promote. One will remain to stomp the lowest teams and gain promotion next season.

So the team that would have been top of the lowest div ( and later the divs above) will be prevented from moving up.

Basically you have to come back to no system is perfect for every eventuality. Given the low player base and nature of the competitive community we can only get to what we think is best overall. We cannot cater for every eventuality.

Reducing the div size and therefore the number of weeks in a season means that teams are not waiting so long for a chance to promote.
The chance of fast progression means that new higher skilled teams will be faster out of the unsuitable divs and faster find their appropriate level, which is important for the teams they will stomp.

Remember the main aim of BEAST is that teams will play against teams of similar skill, as the wisest ot tourney admins once said 'kitten stomping is fun for no-one'.

 

[Mabons]

I also seem to recall the bizzare situation where teams in Div B were asked to move up to Div A and no one wanted to, so aD who were in Div C accepted it. I think VW was one of those teams in Div B at the time even ?

 

[TheBard]

I also seem to recall the bizzare situation where teams in Div B were asked to move up to Div A and no one wanted to, so aD who were in Div C accepted it. I think VW was one of those teams in Div B at the time even ?

There is nothing to gain from joining Division A right now as an upstarter from Div B. If you go up to A you'll get circle-stomped (and laughed and called trash by the Pr0Play3rs on top behind the curtains). It's literally useless. I understand every Div B team right now outright dissolving if forced into Div A, since, well, if you play for fun, you won't get it there.