BEAST - Bannerlord Early Access Skirmish Tournament

[Einarcf]

Kwen.

I have to agree. Might be diffucult to have double promotion matches for either top C or 2nd B though.

 

[Teugata]

I have to agree. Might be diffucult to have double promotion matches for either top C or 2nd B though.

Difficult why? 1st of C first fights 2nd of div B to see who earns the right to challenge 5th of div A, then the winner challenges 5th of div A for promo to A.

I'm still waiting to hear why Aeronwen seems to belief this suggestion "will mix up the divisions and end with teams in unsuitable divisions", since I strongly belief it would actually have the opposite effect.

I'm also wondering why would you have a suggestions thread in the first place if out of all the suggestions I have seen coming through on this thread none of them have ever been taken seriously and all of them have been answered with hostility and a vague reason as to why the admins way is always already the best way. If you are not open to change that might improve your tourney close this thing of being able to make suggestions entirely and be done with the puppet show since you are obviously going to do the thing that you want to do anyway no matter how many solid arguments are made against it.

 

[Einarcf]

Difficult why? 1st of C first fight 2nd of div B to see who can challenge 5h of div A, then the winner challenges 5th of div A for promo to A.

It would be harder to do the same week; especially if you have teams which can only play one day a week. Finals would be done before playoffs are done.

 

[Ondine la Badine]

I think he means two matches have to be played, which takes two weeks if there is only one match played per week.
No problem for the schedule because it's in-between seasons, but that's one more week of administrating (even if very light administration) where the admins can't take a break.

Kwen.

Edit : yep ty Einar for clarifying, I understood well what you meant.

 

[Zdzichu]

I cooled down and thought it over. Imo new system is rly good idea but should be announced at the beggining of the season not now.. Now all teams fighting for second place are rly mad.

 

[Teugata]

I think he means two matches have to be played, which takes two weeks if there is only one match played per week.
No problem for the schedule because it's in-between seasons, but that's one more week of administrating (even if very light administration) where the admins can't take a break.

Kwen.

Edit : yep ty Einar for clarifying, I understood well what you meant.

So get help if it's too much administration or if some admins require a holiday

 

[TheBard]

I really see favoritism in this ruling, which doesn't fit a true competitive scene.

Kwen.

I really doubt this rule was created to help some 'specific' team and this callout is absolutely not necessary.
Last season people complainted about it when AE stomped the lower divisions that they will have to work their way up multiple divisions (and ruin the fun for the others involved, since, well, they don't belong into that division)

Fun fact: You won't find the perfect solution for this either.

I didn't ask for this promotion match either. I will play it regardless, since, well, we get appointed to play it.

So get help if it's too much administration or if some admins require a holiday

Teugata for admin then? As previous administrator of the tournament who had to step down due to time constraints I want to stress that this isn't the most easiest task and it requires time, attention and impartiality as well as patience with people.

 

[Teugata]

Teugata for admin then? As previous administrator of the tournament who had to step down due to time constraints I want to stress that this isn't the most easiest task and it requires time, attention and impartiality as well as patience with people.

I already proposed to help out with lots of things in order to implement some of the changes I mentioned earlier all three of which I still belief would benefit the tourney in its entirety. The biggest of all a proposition to create an automated system for teams to input scores so that anti cheat checks, league tables updates, even entire statistic sheets for each division, can be automated fully. However since this requires every team captain an additional step of using a third party tool or website this was deemed undesirable so it was deemed better to keep keep doing everything manually. Truthfully I agree this would make any person insane if they had to do it alone for too long.

Either way that still doesn't mean you should ignore all suggestions entirely. Having a lot of stuff to do already is by no means an excuse not to try to make things better for all especially if it has zero impact on the former.

And even if it did if you got to do a monks job, get more monks and spread out the load.

 

[Ondine la Badine]

@Bard : You say you don't see this rule being made to help some specific team.
Then next sentence you say this rule was spefically made concerning AE...

Anyway I don't blame Mor, anybody could have been in this spot.
I'm just appalled by this sad rule.

And I agree with Zdzichu, not only is this ruling spoiling steady customers teams that put in the efforts to maintain rosters and keep playing without default season after season (compared to the ones that create and disband lightly, like AE, GG...), the worst thing is to change/make a new ruling during a season.
It breaks any confidence in the system.
It's like signing a contract and seing the terms change one-sidedly before the end of it.
Man created law to be able to live together. And one of its pillars in civilized societies is that law doesn't change one-sidedly nor before term.
Can't build anything on unreliable grounds.
It's like patching the game in the middle of a season...
But I guess this last point shows BEAST is not an official Bannerlord League that TW includes in their roadmaps (like other games usually do : you will never see a patch being applied in the middle of a season in other competitive games), it's just amateur work to entertain a few, even if I agree admins put in a lot of hours to get it going. It's sad that the nice part of the work is wasted by such few really bad mistakes.

Now we now that there is no point in planning anything, since things can change at any time one sidedly.
And we also know that there is no point in playing the whole season if after a few weeks you know you won't get first place. Then just disband in the middle of the season, admins will take care of the frustration of the other teams, and help you climb back up to your division asap when you reform next season. You might even get to a higher division before the guys that played the season until the end in the division your were in.
I'm being sarcastic of course, but this is the unconscious message sent to teams and players. And when you send messages like this, don't be surprised to get a toxic and unwelcoming playerbase that doesn't grow.

Kwen.

 

[Gotha]

Not sure if it was suggested earlier for BEAST#6:
But I think in general you shouldn't be able to add players to your roster at any time during the tournament.
I think you should do it at least a week before the next offical match.
Example:
If we want to use APRIKOSENMANN in our Furor roster in week 5, we need to add him until sunday 23:59pm GMT in week 4.
That would also been easier to handle for admins I guess.
And you can prevent match dumping by adding good players last minute to your roster.

 

[Namakan]

hello i would like to suggest adjusting the wrong tag/name = instant suspension rule because its stupid, thank you.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

And I agree with Zdzichu, not only is this ruling spoiling steady customers teams that put in the efforts to maintain rosters and keep playing without default season after season (compared to the ones that create and disband lightly, like AE, GG...),

We have not "disbanded" lol, we didn't sign up because the game was unplayable for 20% of the last BEAST which was terrible to play in. We'll be back when the game is proven to be workable - and we'll take our promoted position.

 

[Ondine la Badine]

we didn't sign up

Ye even if you didn't disband, you are out of the league and the team doesn't exist anymore regarding BEAST.
Besides the words, leaving generates exactly the same problems as a team that disbands (regarding some of the competing team's prejudice, and the administration problems).

our promoted position

Oho I can see there are some more favoring and hidden rules that the admins made up secretly, and that are yet to be announced officially at a late and unconvenient moment for the other participating teams...

I thought it was a normal league, where teams that compete are listed in the divisions (meaning "team not registered in a division" = team not in the league = will start at the bottom when it joins).


But let's wait to see what an admin says to that rule you are evoking. I still can't believe there is such a degree of cronyism in the BEAST administration, and prefer to think you just assumed that rule on your own thinking you deserve a special treatment, until I see an admin confirming it.

Kwen.

 

[TheBard]

@Bard : You say you don't see this rule being made to help some specific team.
Then next sentence you say this rule was spefically made concerning AE...

Anyway I don't blame Mor, anybody could have been in this spot.
I'm just appalled by this sad rule.

I said people claimed AE to be a stomp and that teams like that - death stacks one might call them - should go on a fast lane to a higher division to give other teams the option to promote orderly.
Basicly the table will sort itself in a couple of tournaments latest. There are many teams in these divisions which could be challenged by stronger teams and I don't want them to be removed from their divisions or anything, but strong teams should not torment

Memento Mori in my opinion is a Div B-Team which is stuck in Div C right now. We worked our way out of Division C in an orderly fashion and I can just hope I am able to maintain the conquered division next season. Do I think I can go to A? Probably not. Could a death stack go to A if in my position? Probably yes.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

Ye even if you didn't disband, you are out of the league and the team doesn't exist anymore regarding BEAST.

This is something you have made up.

Oho I can see there are some more favoring and hidden rules that the admins made up secretly, and that are yet to be announced officially at a late and unconvenient moment for the other participating teams...

This is also something you have made up.

 

[Ondine la Badine]

This is something you have made up.


This is also something you have made up.

Show us where it is said that you are still in the league?
Fact is AE is not in the current list of teams sorry.

Show us where it is said that you can claim your "promoted position" if you sign back in?
Fact is there is nothing in the current rules saying this sorry.

So far, without proof of what you are saying, you are making things up.
Worse, you are trying to distract from that deficiency by slandering me, still without anything to backup your words, not even a coherent reasoning.
Usually I don't take defamation lightly, but in this case I will make an exception because it might be a misunderstanding.


On the matter, I'm eager for an admin to answer this and confirm your affirmations.
Since you don't present anything but what seem to be your wishes, and I can't find anything tangible anywhere that goes the direction you are saying, I'd be very happy to be enlightened by an admin if there is any document or even an oral conversation that ever existed, where those rules are mentioned.
And I suppose all teams participating in BEAST would also like to know those kind of rules if they ever exist.

Otherwise, it would show you are prone to deep confusion between your fantasies and reality.
But I'm sure it won't get to this and the rule exists in a hidden place I just don't know yet.

Kwen.

 

[Ondine la Badine]

Basicly the table will sort itself in a couple of tournaments latest.

That is exaclty the point where I think you are wrong, but it's really a subjective matter.

I think the table would already have sorted itself out if teams disbanding/signing out were knowingly throwing month if not years of grinding when doing so (by having to start back at the bottom when creating a new team/re-signing in).
With this new rule, it becomes easier to disband/getting out of the league, and come back at will messing up with the standings in all the lower divisions.
Instead of "sorting the table", it encourages generation of new "death stacks" (as you call them) each season, maintaining the mess indefinitely.
In professional leagues, disbanding/forfeiting/leaving teams are even fined to prevent it from happening too often, and there is a substantial fee to sign in, besides having to climb back from the very bottom.
Those are the rules that make a league stable, not shortcuts rules. It makes the teams play long term to get top spots in the league, then to keep them. And players have to try hard to fit into the existing teams, and try to keep their position. This gives value and meaning to those spots.
In its current state, this new rule just offers a very small minority of "skilled players" the possibility to skip the long term effort, and more sadly by doing it, makes the rest of the playerbase's effort longer and harder (by spoiling a promotion match that another higher team should get).

Memento Mori in my opinion is a Div B-Team which is stuck in Div C right now.

Yes you are a div B team I agree.
But where do you get from that you are stuck in div C!?
You are first of div C, so you get automatically promoted to div B...

death stacks one might call them - should go on a fast lane to a higher division to give other teams the option to promote orderly.

This rule precisely doesn't authorize the other teams to promote orderly when there is no "death stack".
For example in your case (first of div C), you have less chances to win against 5th of div A than actual 2nd of div B (3 teams are currently fighting for 2nd place in div B, and all of them are arguably better than yours so far -if you consider the scrims), but it's your team that gets the shot to div A, and not 2nd of div B.
To give the promotion match against a 5th of division to the "best team" beneath it, whether or not there is a "death stack" in the lower divisions, 1st of div-2 and 2nd of div-1 should play each-other first, and the winner should earn the right to play the promotion match.

Again, a fair "jump" rule would be (as Teugata said) :
-- 1st of n fights 2nd of n+1 to see who earns the right to challenge 5th of n+2
---- loser goes/stays in n+1
---- winner challenges 5th of n+2 for promo to n+2.
---------- loser of challenge goes/stays in n+1
---------- winner of challenge goes/stays in n+2

It's just one more match in the post-season and it becomes fluid and way fairer :
no death stack > 2nd of div gets the shot to go up +1
death stack > death stack gets the shot to go up +2

You can even submit the existence of the first match to "1st of n" having "stomped" its division (like 0 set lost in the entire season, or rounds lost < 5). That would prevent useless matches to administrate, and if there is no "death stack" appearing in the whole divisions, you get the post season one match shorter.


Kwen.

 

[TheBard]

I actually see merit in both systems, I am not not necessarily defending one and way more neutral on the matter than you think.

There is no need to say I have any advantage with my team either, since I won all of my matches in Div C right now and we're mathematically already winner of the division (and hence qualified for Div B).

I would like to stress that you can reintroduce the playoffs for #5 place like before, I'd be fine with that, but I'd say the last one should always demote and the first one always promote to honor the effort these teams put into the season and - if you say there should be no cheesy fast lane - hold teams accountable for not playing that much, but then tryharding at the very end to prevent their standing.

 

[Aeronwen]

Announcing this rule 1 week before the end of the season is a big mistake.

Then, having only 1 team up and 1 team down per division gives nearly no fluidity to the league, and I thought I understood the admins wanted fluidity.
Or maybe I was wrong, they wanted fluidity for a few very specific teams that can bypass the climbing, and even at the cost of fluidity for the others.

Then there is the perfect example of Mor. They topped div C easily and get a promotion match to div A.
In div B, DoF is in a good place to get first spot, but there are at least 3 other teams (MoB, KW and us) that beat Mor all the time (and I'm not exagerating), and those 3 teams don't get a promotion match.
Mor should at least have a match against the second div B team, to see if they deserve this div A promotion match, because this rule spoils the best teams of a division that don't finish first.

Would we have known this rule before the beginning of the season, we could have asked to be demoted into div C. This way, we would have had an easy season and even got an easy shot to a promotion match to div A. Now we are stuck and see guys with lesser results have the shot those 3 teams of div B I mentionned can't have.

I really see favoritism in this ruling, which doesn't fit a true competitive scene.

Kwen.

You are right it should have been announced earlier. Unfirtuately all the admins have had rl issues which mean there has not been much time for tournament discussion.
TBH though it is a logical progression from the switch to 6 divs. The system was largely set at the end of beast 3 - we just wanted to fine tune (which never happened)

---

@Bard : You say you don't see this rule being made to help some specific team.
Then next sentence you say this rule was spefically made concerning AE...

Anyway I don't blame Mor, anybody could have been in this spot.
I'm just appalled by this sad rule.

And I agree with Zdzichu, not only is this ruling spoiling steady customers teams that put in the efforts to maintain rosters and keep playing without default season after season (compared to the ones that create and disband lightly, like AE, GG...), the worst thing is to change/make a new ruling during a season.
It breaks any confidence in the system.
It's like signing a contract and seing the terms change one-sidedly before the end of it.
Man created law to be able to live together. And one of its pillars in civilized societies is that law doesn't change one-sidedly nor before term.
Can't build anything on unreliable grounds.
It's like patching the game in the middle of a season...
But I guess this last point shows BEAST is not an official Bannerlord League that TW includes in their roadmaps (like other games usually do : you will never see a patch being applied in the middle of a season in other competitive games), it's just amateur work to entertain a few, even if I agree admins put in a lot of hours to get it going. It's sad that the nice part of the work is wasted by such few really bad mistakes.

Now we now that there is no point in planning anything, since things can change at any time one sidedly.
And we also know that there is no point in playing the whole season if after a few weeks you know you won't get first place. Then just disband in the middle of the season, admins will take care of the frustration of the other teams, and help you climb back up to your division asap when you reform next season. You might even get to a higher division before the guys that played the season until the end in the division your were in.
I'm being sarcastic of course, but this is the unconscious message sent to teams and players. And when you send messages like this, don't be surprised to get a toxic and unwelcoming playerbase that doesn't grow.

Kwen.

This system was designed in response to various complaints during previous tournaments. off the top of my head there was a loud faction demanding automatic promotion for winners of each div; there were demands for new teams to start in the lowest div no matter how skilled they are: there were demands that highly skilled teams not play in the lowest divs.

So this system will allow the winners of each div to promote to the next div automatically. They also get the chance to leapfrog a div if (and only if) they have the skill to beat a team that has been playing in that higher div.

In addition it provides for a faster route for new but skilled teams to end up in the appropriate place for them.

In reality ofc teams that are not new to the tournament are unlikely to leapfrog a div. However there is no fair way to have extra promotion matches for only new but skilled teams.


When you complain that admins are biased against your team and then you move teams and complain that admins are biased for your old team maybe you should take a pause and reconsider your world view.

---

I haven't read everything here yet - due to lack of time but I want to make 2 points.

Admining a tournament (properly) is hard work and very time consuming. It is easy to make suggestions, complaints & demands but not so easy to think through the unintended consequences and implement changes. Before complaining and impugning the integrity of the admins maybe just run your own tournament. As ever I am happy to give advice and help and co-operate with anyone wanting to do that.

When people complain about small things (like having to spend 2 seconds changing their Steam tag for a match) and come up with 'solutions' such as mandating that every player must install a mod and every player must sign up to another website (both of which have been tried before with unhappy results) and neither of which makes sense in a EA game, the admins are going to stop taking that person's suggestions seriously.
IMO the rest of the community should be grateful for the admins common sense and display a lot more good will.

Not sure if it was suggested earlier for BEAST#6:
But I think in general you shouldn't be able to add players to your roster at any time during the tournament.
I think you should do it at least a week before the next offical match.
Example:
If we want to use APRIKOSENMANN in our Furor roster in week 5, we need to add him until sunday 23:59pm GMT in week 4.
That would also been easier to handle for admins I guess.
And you can prevent match dumping by adding good players last minute to your roster.

Yes, it would be easier for admins, but as I am sure you are aware from Warband it can make matches impossible. Sometimes a team just doesnt have enough players at start time and they can draft in anyone who isnt already playing for another team. TBH this isnt so likely to happen in the higher divs but for newer or casual teams it is necessary.

Please remember that BEAST is designed to be accesible to all teams & players not just the most dedicated. There can and should be tournaments designed for the most able teams (I would like to see a 4 group group stage and single elimination stage for instance).

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

Show us where it is said that you are still in the league?

Show me in the rules where a team not playing "stops existing"? This is your own bizarre interpretation, where BEAST is ran by some lovecraftian entity rather than by 2 hardworking admins who know exactly our situation. Spending 2 seconds reflecting on what your inane position would entail would have been enough to stop you posting; alas.

Show us where it is said that you can claim your "promoted position" if you sign back in?

I'll show you in roughly 2 months kiddo.

Otherwise, it would show you are prone to deep confusion between your fantasies and reality.
But I'm sure it won't get to this and the rule exists in a hidden place I just don't know yet.

The only fantasies on show here are your own, praying AE don't show up again to stomp you so you hide your face and pretend we've "disbanded" or "don't exist".