BEAST - Bannerlord Early Access Skirmish Tournament

[Metal-Luca]

Well, last season we had a situation where nobody wanted to play in A from divison B.
That's why the spot went to AD.

But the placement of the teams is mostly done anyway.

Talking about teams progression: I hope you all read this thread carefully :https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...east-4-transition-to-6-team-divisions.438574/

IKEA if you put a new formed team to a higher division than an old team that played the former beast season in a lower division and wants to play in a higher division it means you are not agreeing with your own progression system which is so interesting.New teams that are formed are bottom in the ladder because they never played in competitions that means you make rules and you don't respect your own rules,you bend them according to your interest.Pls treat everybody the same!Stop being bias!
ALSO in every sport league, players belong to the Team not the team to the players.A spot in a division is owned by a team not by individual players.Different situation if teams merge.
Keep that in mind.

 

[Metal-Luca]

To be fair, a team which fought for one season to keep their place or whatever should not be robbed because players switch teams fast.
Rapid promotion might solve one of this problems - but we will nuke team cohesion and even the worth of seasons if we just go and let 1) teams who fought for their place in a division via fourth/fifth spot (right now) be kicked out of said divisions because a stronger stack appears or 2) just say arbitrarily on the basis of scrim screenshots that people might need to leave.

How to set up Rapid Promotion? If there's a killer team (we can talk about SGM or Greedy Goblins) we could let them fight multiple promotion matches in a row to let them show their worth if they are eligible for promotion match. That way it would be fair because it is a risk which can be calculated.

But if you just go and let ppl be removed from one division 'randomly', you have to put them somewhere, so you 'randomly' decide another team which fought for their place in a certain division might have to fight another match, maybe even in tournament breaks?
The only one who are taken into account and are favored by this approach are newly formed and stacked killer teams which might even dissolve after the season again. This approach is not only elitist but might make it harder long term because a team which might be forced into a match like this 'randomly' could interpret this as arbitrarily. I strongly urge the tournament staff to not make this decision. You form a new team? Start from the bottom like everyone else has too, unless a spot higher up is free (which then could be fought over in matches again, ofc) and maybe adopt rapid promotion like suggested above.

RESPECT!

 

[Aeronwen]

But if GG would want to be fair to the other teams and start from the bottom and earn thier spot,like most of the new teams?
Explain that.
Maybe there are teams from B that want to play in A,why give the spot to a new team?
That means every season 6 players from different teams in div A can make a new team just to stay in A.Why you need clans in this community, just make party of 6 players.If you are changing the rules every season, this competition will loose it's prestige and admins their credibility.Last season you got a spot in A for a team and you started asking other teams .First you asked teams from B then C,D and after new teams.So why now should be different.Admins pls respect the community.
P.S. i respect other clans and captains but stop talking about other teams like you know what you are talking about,look in your own courtyard and stop fantasizing and creating ipotetical situations.
Admins i suggest before beast starts, you show us the provisional divisions with arguments,so the whole community can debate and speak their mind, otherwise all the community will sound like goblin noises!

IKEA if you put a new formed team to a higher division than an old team that played the former beast season in a lower division and wants to play in a higher division it means you are not agreeing with your own progression system which is so interesting.New teams that are formed are bottom in the ladder because they never played in competitions that means you make rules and you don't respect your own rules,you bend them according to your interest.Pls treat everybody the same!Stop being bias!
ALSO in every sport league, players belong to the Team not the team to the players.A spot in a division is owned by a team not by individual players.Different situation if teams merge.
Keep that in mind.

1. No team that has fought for it's position in the previous BEAST will be put in a lower division. (note the admins would consider this if the team asked and had reasons)
2. A team that has the same name as a previous team but not the players of the previous team is not the team that fought for its place.
3. It is a fundamental part of BEAST that teams play teams of similar skill. It is unfair to lower div teams to place obviously A tier teams in a lower tier when there is a spot in Div A (or any spot nearer the teams ability level)
4. It is not the case that every team in B let alone C or D was asked to move to A last season, you have already been told this several times. Repeating a lie does not make it true.
5. It is not OK to insult the admins.
6. Your focus on your own teams is understandable. But arguing, however indirectly, that adifferent group of players (from lower divs) should take the place in Div A of the team that achieved that place, left your clan and made their own team is obviously wrong. Your internal clan issues are not the problem of the administration nor should the administration have any regard to those issues when setting the divisions.

 

[Metal-Luca]

1. Agreed!
2. Not so fair but it makes sense!
3. How you know the skill of a new formed team? you can assume it only.Why you don't prioritize a team that was in lower division and played in former seasons to play in higher division if it wants to instead of a new formed team?
4. Then how was it?Can you repeat the procedure step by step?
5. I never did it!
6. No internal clan issues here and administration has nothing to do with something that doesn't exist.
Just be fair to everybody if you are not a bias admins.
The divisions created will show if you are or not!

 

[Ikea Knight]

@Metal-Luca Just out of curiousity
Which team would you place in A instead the Goblins?

Also I don't understand why you fight so hard against GG but ignore that from your point of view SGM is also a new team that should start in D.

 

[Metal-Luca]

@Metal-Luca Just out of curiousity
Which team would you place in A instead the Goblins?

Also I don't understand why you fight so hard against GG but ignore that from your point of view SGM is also a new team that should start in D.

Because SGM has most of the roster of Light team like 80% and other div a players so it respects your rule of majority from a team stay in the same division, but GG has players from division a teams mostly but not a majority of a team.
2nd maybe a team from B wants to play in A you have to ask them first in my opinion like i understand it was done last season.Also with this decision you are encouranging players to leave teams and make new teams just to stay in the same division because they have no restriction and no penalty for that.
I agree that GG deserve a place in A but judging by your own rules and behaviour in last seasons you must do the same now, so you won't leave any room for interpretation and you also have to be transparent.

 

[Aeronwen]

Because SGM has most of the roster of Light team like 80% and other div a players so it respects your rule of majority from a team stay in the same division, but GG has players from division a teams mostly but not a majority of a team.
2nd maybe a team from B wants to play in A you have to ask them first in my opinion like i understand it was done last season.Also with this decision you are encouranging players to leave teams and make new teams just to stay in the same division because they have no restriction and no penalty for that.
I agree that GG deserve a place in A but judging by your own rules and behaviour in last seasons you must do the same now, so you won't leave any room for interpretation and you also have to be transparent.

what rules? what behaviour?

How does the principle that teams remain in the division they ended in last season encourage players to make new teams?

 

[Metal-Luca]

what rules? what behaviour?

How does the principle that teams remain in the division they ended in last season encourage players to make new teams?

You are talking about something else.I never said anything about that.
I apologize to admins i didn't want to say that they are bias!
You don't agree that you are encouranging players to leave teams and make new teams just to stay in the same division because they have no restriction and no penalty for that in your competition becasue you allow them to play in the same division?

 

[Enter]

To make the tournament successful I want to warn the administration from predicting the performance of new teams. Good players don't make a good team right away, but good teamplay and good communication. You are trying to predict the level of performance of new teams, but are you able to predict whether such new teams will disband after one or two weeks? (Just remind yourself Unity - one of the best Warband clans playing Bannerlord worse than avarage clan from div C) And then we have an obvious problem during the tournament when a team falls apart. I'm not talking about current situation because SGM is definetly very good team but this might come as a future problem.

 

[Firunien]

Explain what should be done if KDW wanted to play DivB but no DivB team wants to give up their spot.

IF nobody wants to switch spots KWD has the options to :
1. stay in A
2. finde someone else in another division willing to swap
3. start over in Division D, Top Team of Division B will be forced into A

 

[IceNoVa]

I don't get what's so difficult with this situation.

If you have a new team it starts in the lowest division possible.
If a team withdraws from the tournament it either
a) passes on their old spot to whatever team/clan is considered the succesor of the old clan/team.
or
b) they forfeit their old placement and the table move up accordingly. Admins pick the next up in the ranks, who may very well refuse to take the spot, rinse and repeat until you find a replacement squad.

Granting newly formed squads with no claim on a spot withdrawn by their predecessor start from the bottom. Everything else is not acceptable and leads down the dark path of arbitrary decision making, nepotism and playing favourites.

The reasons are very simple: Teams in a clan focused environment need incentive to grow and improve as well as providing stable communities to contribute to the overall community.

I suggest implementing this as a core principle within the rules so that it saves everyone time and patience and have a solid foundation for future cases. Let's be real here, we had three seasons already and in every season some team withdrew or reorganised itself.

---

Also, and again: Sibling divisions.
If the tournament grows, having 6,7,8 divisions with a linear path of progression nobody in their right mind will want to start a new squad if they intend to get into the higher tiers. Expecting anyone to stick with this format for 6+ seasons to get to get the top is ridiculous, we're talking almost a year worth of playing in a community this small.

Alternatively you may want to consider a expanded play-offs, however that would come with an increased time effort and since the (reasonable) intent is to cut down on event duration to allow for breaks and other events to have a fighting chance, that would be counter-productive. Hence again, sibling divisions to allow for a more permeable division structure.

 

[Aeronwen]

I don't get what's so difficult with this situation.

If you have a new team it starts in the lowest division possible.
If a team withdraws from the tournament it either
a) passes on their old spot to whatever team/clan is considered the succesor of the old clan/team.
or
b) they forfeit their old placement and the table move up accordingly. Admins pick the next up in the ranks, who may very well refuse to take the spot, rinse and repeat until you find a replacement squad.

Granting newly formed squads with no claim on a spot withdrawn by their predecessor start from the bottom. Everything else is not acceptable and leads down the dark path of arbitrary decision making, nepotism and playing favourites.

The reasons are very simple: Teams in a clan focused environment need incentive to grow and improve as well as providing stable communities to contribute to the overall community.

I suggest implementing this as a core principle within the rules so that it saves everyone time and patience and have a solid foundation for future cases. Let's be real here, we had three seasons already and in every season some team withdrew or reorganised itself.

---

Also, and again: Sibling divisions.
If the tournament grows, having 6,7,8 divisions with a linear path of progression nobody in their right mind will want to start a new squad if they intend to get into the higher tiers. Expecting anyone to stick with this format for 6+ seasons to get to get the top is ridiculous, we're talking almost a year worth of playing in a community this small.

Alternatively you may want to consider a expanded play-offs, however that would come with an increased time effort and since the (reasonable) intent is to cut down on event duration to allow for breaks and other events to have a fighting chance, that would be counter-productive. Hence again, sibling divisions to allow for a more permeable division structure.

and again, sibling divisions just means playing against teams with a wider skill differential, stomps are fun for no-one.

You cannot seriously think that putting GG in div D will be fun for either GG or any of the div D teams. If there wasn't an empty spot in A there would be an argument for it, but making a whole division have a miserable tournament out of some idiotic desire to punish players who change teams would not be good tournament management.

The admin team have not at any point made any arbitrary decisions. Everything has been carefully thought through and fully discussed. Clan management is not our problem. If clans cannot hold on to their good plyers that is the clans problem and they should not seek to put the responsibility onto admins.

 

[IceNoVa]

You cannot seriously think that putting GG in div D will be fun for either GG or any of the div D teams. If there wasn't an empty spot in A there would be an argument for it, but making a whole division have a miserable tournament out of some idiotic desire to punish players who change teams would not be good tournament management.

It's not to punish players at all, it's about not having newly formed teams just bypass the entire progression system when there's dozens of teams competing in those.
Again, if there is a clan reforming and it's pretty evident that there a new project is a clear succesor with just slightly changed people taking part, that team is free to claim the spot since they left that spot by themselves.
However if there is a completely new team and no free spots available, the logical conclusion is for those squads to go through the ranks.
There will always be new sign ups that do not belong into the lower division and will make their way up inevitably, but that way is less appealing when it expands to "have fun with 6 seasons of this".

Again, the alternative to shorten that way and have strong teams go to a division they fit in faster is to overhaul the play-off system so that squads can actively earn their place faster.
Sibling division work well when the tournament is large enough and arguably this tournament is heading in that direction.
Ultimately it's about having a progression system that is not biased towards new squads formed by well-known players and just granting them a higher spot, but rather making it simpler for new squads in general to find a division they can compete in without 12-0/0-12 results on a weekly basis.

 

[Tryerror]

Metal-Luca just defended himself against a false narrative of a lie about them not wanting to play in Div A even tho the raiming light players were in A and KW Dark defend their A place in playoffs (by a large marging) and are back in A with an earned place. We all highly appreciate the work the admins put into this and who they listen to our suggestions and worries and answer to every single one of them - which is astonishing. Its more problematic if alternativ facts are presented to gain an unsportmanship through probably earned by skill advantage.
About the sister devisions: I am not sure if it will end in stomps. NoVa also suggested a special playoff system for them, that should prevent that. We would have to test them first, i guess.
TCV a very formidable and strong clan was also placed against suggestions from the community in a lower devisions. I remember to told that TCV and also at least one admin. Fact is however, we dont know until we test ist - nobody believed me first and why should they. Now they worried with reason bevore the decisions of smaller devisions was postboned that they would have a boring season of stomps again. So basically nobody can see the future. If you are daring to go with a new system, people should understand that, test it like buchholz and complain later but always remember to be fair and nice to the free working admins who not only have to write those big essays about new systems but also to our worries and complains - That is something we all should remember in the manner of sportmanship and good faith.

 

[Varian♛]

To end up in the higher divisions, teamwork and cooperation should also be rewarded. If someone wants to change the clan he can do that, but then he must join another clan in the same division or start with a whole new clan from the bottom.

 

[Mabons]

Thus far Aeronwen(who isn't new to tournament organization) and Ikea(Who is) have done an outstanding job running fair tournaments and resolving issues fairly. I trust both of them to seed teams properly, and I suspect if they were unsure they would ask others like Ramon Bard and the team leaders themselves.

All this speculation is pointless.

 

[Firunien]

You cannot seriously think that putting GG in div D will be fun for either GG or any of the div D teams. If there wasn't an empty spot in A there would be an argument for it, but making a whole division have a miserable tournament out of some idiotic desire to punish players who change teams would not be good tournament management.

Well if there is no free spot you have no choice, you cant force a team to drop down a division because some new team thinks its stronger then them, if no team agrees they have to start from bottom.
Anyway so far you always handled the dropping and replacing of teams pretty well ,thanks for that, so i am not worried too much

 

[TheBard]

I guess what also plays in right now is the transition from 8 to 6 teams which will make teams way less likely to give up spots in higher divisions since they could be rapidly demoted then.

 

[IceNoVa]

I've given this some thought and decided to put that thought into a properly written form.

For consideration
Claim and Contender System

In the event that a team withraws or disbands from the tournament and thus leave a spot vacant in a division, the spot should be awarded to nex team in line, unless they have a claim to that spot.

A claimant may be
A)
A reformed team with atleast a simple majority (50%+1) of all players of the team that initially held that spot. Players need to have been marked as "played" to be counted. Any further addition to the new roster is irrelevant.
or
B)
A different squad put forward by the same clan, verifiable by affiliation by name and confirmation of the listed team contacts.
In the event that a team cedes from their previous clan to forma new spot, the claim is awarded to party that fields a contender squad compliant tiwh the 50%+1 clause. Players need to have been marked as "played" to be counted.

In the event of a spot being open to a higher division, the next team in line for promotion is eligible to claim that spot. The next team in line is determined after the regular play-off match. A team that has lost their promotion match is still eligible for that particular spot.

However,
in the event that a new team (contender) has formed it is free to challenge the next team in line (claimant) to a match to claim the open spot. This is so that new, strong teams may fill in high-end gaps and avoid imbalances in lower divisions.
In the event that there are multiple new teams, these teams shall play each other and the overall winner
of the contender play-off will face the claimant in the final play-off match.

Any new team that does not claim an open spot is sorted into the lowest division possible.
Any contender that fails to successfully claim a higher spot is sorted into the lowest division possible.

In the event of multiple open spots, contenders are ranked and are eligible to face off with the claimants for the remaining free spots.

Challenger matches are to be laid out by administration staff in number of sets, factions, map choice, tie-breaker et cetera.

 

[Yans]

sounds fair