Bayonets VS Horses?

[Hibiki]

I've had this suspicion for a while, and now that I have been testing it out on bots for quite a while, I have pretty much confirmed it: bayonets do not stop horses.

You know how in Native, when you stab a horse that is coming at you, it stops and rears up? This doesn't happen in AoFI. The horse just takes a little damage, and plows right over you. And, seeing as you can rarely take a horse out in one, or - if it is stationary, even two or three thrusts, I think this is what, more than anything, make cavalry unbalanced in AoFI.

Seeing as charging into a wall of bayonets was pretty much suicide for a cavalryman, I really hope this will be addressed. I was curious, however, as to why horses do not rear up when stabbed - so, I took a look at the bayonet items. As I thought -- they are classified as two-handed weapons, and not as pole-arms. So this means when you stab a horse charging straight at you, you just get trampled over.

So, I would like to make a simple suggestion: make bayonets pole-arms, so that they can actually pose a threat to cavalry!

 

[Prows]

I agree, hopefully this is addressed. It would definitely make people think twice before just cavalry rushing a line of infantry who would otherwise pose a great threat.

 

[Rigadoon]

Really? When I do it, it actually kills the horse because of the horses momentum. Actually in real life, horses do not charge into sharp objects. That is why in medieval times, sometime the eyes of horses would be covered. But that would be terrible in the game. But lets say the horse has the guts to charge and you stab it. If you were charging forward and someone stabbed you, you would keep falling forward or if you were slightly wounded only, keep going forward.

 

[Furnardan]

Though I agree, I can note that I a superior over cavalry with my bayonet. How you ask? Simple. The horsemen charges, I jump and stab the rider, rider dies, I get hit by a horse.

 

[Apostata]

I'ts already hard to make any threat to even single infantryman with medium skill just with cavalry/dragoon sword. As they are able to stab with their polearm 1.5/per second.  It looks like hooves are just for fun in AOFI, as everybody is so ******** sure that they can survive being run over by a horse.

Honestly guys, without mega austrian hussar sabre, cavalry posses no real threat as is just a target for bumptious behaviour. Most of the cases of cavalry killing infantry is while backstabbing. That's just ridiculous.

 

[Madf11]

I'ts already hard to make any threat to even single infantryman with medium skill just with cavalry/dragoon sword. As they are able to stab with their polearm 1.5/per second.  It looks like hooves are just for fun in AOFI, as everybody is so ******** sure that they can survive being run over by a horse.

Honestly guys, without mega austrian hussar sabre, cavalry posses no real threat as is just a target for bumptious behaviour. Most of the cases of cavalry killing infantry is while backstabbing. That's just ridiculous.

I agree with this totally, cavalry are just easy targets to shoot when using melee as well as doing a silly jump in the air and stabbing them with bayonets. Not to mention that cavalry does that silly cavalry archer thing with pistols. It slows 2m in front of you and shoots you.

 

[Hibiki]

Cavalry can smash through anything just by down-blocking and riding over it. The jump-stab thing is also very risky, as you are more likely to be hit by the horse before you hit the rider, and you are a very easy target for the rider. As for "having the disadvantage against muskets" -- that is nonsense. A cavalryman can just bump me, and cause me to stop reloading. So, basically, I have one shot, and then must rely on my rather useless bayonet -- which just invites me to be bump-slashed, no matter how clear of a shot I get on the rider's horse.

Have you ever seen a team go cavalry just "for the lolz"? Every time our team has done this, we've slaughtered the other team. That is the only time that I really go cavalry, and I find it far, far too easy to just ride people down.

The thing is, during this time, cavalry could not afford to just go riding off on their own, and charging infantry head-on as they do in this mod. They, more often than not, worked with and supported the infantry, or, otherwise, engaged skirmishers, other cavalry, or chased down routing units.  In this mod, players are as bad as NPCs in just running off and doing their own thing, charging from on end of the map to the other, like some kind of "rambo" because they're on horse-back. That would have, and should, entail certain death.

But, most importantly, I just do not think it is balanced for infantry to have no way to avoid being trampled. What would be the point of tight formations, or anti-cavalry tactics if this were the case? Cavalry would not have in reality, as they do in this mod, trampled right through everything as if they were invincible. No amount of men with bayonets deter them, as they have no "stopping power." I don't think that's right.

 

[Furnardan]

Seriously?? Are you kidding me? I'm not trying to brag, but I've slayed 4 cavalry(human) single-handed together in one engagement before with one shot and the bayonet(Not even referring to Saturday's practice). You have to swing the bayonet VERY early before the cavalry reaches you, and of this I am skillful. I have more trouble with pistol-wielding infantry than Cavalry in fact! I've been amazed even when I slayed a rider who was in turn aiming a spear at me! So as I said, if you time it early, you have(as Apostata stated) a period of 1.5 seconds for stabbing-damage-time.
Smash through anything whilst down-blocking? True, Argus/Hibiki, but I find human players to be incompetent more often than not in those regards... the NPCs horsemen are ironically tougher for me to strike than players.

So: Voso dodging(for pistol cav) + Furnie timing(with bayonet) + noob jumping = slayed horsemen.

But we do need to make the horses "killable". Only gods can charge full-speed into a bayonet and not topple over.

 

[Voso]

I agree that the horse should rear when hit with a bayonet, for realism. It also comes into play with more organized warfare which is where I believe it becomes more of a problem, like anti-cavalry formations that utilize the bayonet for instance

 

[Hilliariousman]

Not to brag, but I seldom need to use my bayonet(I rarely equip one anyways). If you just hold your fire until you're point blank then its a 90% chance that you're going to take that man out and you will survive with a measly horse bump.

 

[Apostata]

Cavalry can smash through anything just by down-blocking and riding over it. The jump-stab thing is also very risky, as you are more likely to be hit by the horse before you hit the rider, and you are a very easy target for the rider. As for "having the disadvantage against muskets" -- that is nonsense. A cavalryman can just bump me, and cause me to stop reloading. So, basically, I have one shot, and then must rely on my rather useless bayonet -- which just invites me to be bump-slashed, no matter how clear of a shot I get on the rider's horse.

Really? Well, I am playing mod for MnB:Warband named AOFI and that's somewhat different experience.
Just tell me, who is going to have a privilige of first hit with longer weapon together with possibility to simply shot while standing poor dragoon when he aproaches? At least 50% of my straight charges ends being shot down.  That thing with you getting bumped by horses..I dont believe you. Arent you a flagbearer? At least majority of people can defend themselves very easily with bayonet, simply keeps stabbing the rider as he is trying to give a hit by his sword. As I am pure dragoon or hussar every game I play, I can say, that to kill a foot soldier face to face is one of the most difficult things of this mod AOFI and I love this challenge, even if it ends with both of us in circle - trying to over-reach with weapon the other one. Very different matter is although those pistols mongol raiders. That's nevertheless the problem of personal virtue and ethics.

Have you ever seen a team go cavalry just "for the lolz"? Every time our team has done this, we've slaughtered the other team. That is the only time that I really go cavalry, and I find it far, far too easy to just ride people down.

Well backstabbing and horse rape is one of the easiest way how to win in Mount and Blade...since 2006.

The thing is, during this time, cavalry could not afford to just go riding off on their own, and charging infantry head-on as they do in this mod. They, more often than not, worked with and supported the infantry, or, otherwise, engaged skirmishers, other cavalry, or chased down routing units.  In this mod, players are as bad as NPCs in just running off and doing their own thing, charging from on end of the map to the other, like some kind of "rambo" because they're on horse-back. That would have, and should, entail certain death.

At battle of Kolin, most heroic Saint Ignon Dragoons got into fight with two foot regiments, without any support. They won not even their charge, but even a batle for Austria, by their advance.
During Invasion to Prussia by Russian Empire, Tver and Archandelsky dragoon regiments were fighting alone against volks militia and 2 drafted foot regiments. Without any difficulties, as they were fighting aswell on foot.
Honestly, even chasing the routed units was to some degree hunt on their own, as  tight battle formation was useless against sparsed individuals hidden in villages, forests and so on.

I will speak for myself, that I am at the beginning always skirmishing. Mostly going to the forest or behind any obstacle where I dismount and shot at the enemy a few bullets and then moving on and engaging the lonely soldiers or aiding fellow cavalrymen, if they arent mongolian pistol raiders of course.

But, most importantly, I just do not think it is balanced for infantry to have no way to avoid being trampled. What would be the point of tight formations, or anti-cavalry tactics if this were the case?

Well, I think you get it. THAT would be their point.Since 1.5 you have extremely favourable way how to defend yourself against cavalry even on open map, you have  sandbags and that other crap where I always stuck. Its waste of words to talk about  houses and walls and hills. Plenty of obstacles between you and foe.

 

[Von Strauss]

Regardless of all the discussion, Bayonets need to be a pole-arm. If you stab a charging horse with a bayonet in RL that horse is kaput, but in this game it should atleast stop it to make it somewhat realistic. For the most part all the arguments put in place for those against is that Infantry is already good for anti-cav. Well yeah, Cav by this time was slowly declining in how it was useful. Infantry overtime become more powerful then cavalry, just accept it...

 

[Apostata]

I agree with pole-arm, my point is only to prove that actually fight against cavalry is not as much hard as described above. I am not enforcing any advantage should be add for cavalry, as the horse riding itself is pretty ****ed in MnB.

Cavalry declining by this time? This is not year 1866 but 1750s, cavalry is still a decisive instrument used in "new" battles of firearms since 30 years war to Napoleon's Empire. The only thing which limits cavalry is the cost of horse itself, together with upkeep. Still, horse is the most flexible unit on the battlefield. Just look at least on half  battles of Seven years war, look how they have been manouvering and used on flanks as a serious threat. Not even talking about Napoleonic era. So even if you wrapped your words with word "slowly", I think its still a nonsense, at least to introduction of small breech-loading weapons. Serious threat they were aswell face to face, dont they? Getting bumped was a really serious, as horse could hit you wery hard with his legs. He can even break your bone, if your unlucky, or kill you when hit to head.

 

[Herr_Thomas]

Horses were no where near as flexible IRL as they are in WB.

 

[BattleOfValmy]

Horses were no where near as flexible IRL as they are in WB.

What lies, I take Seabiscuit to calisthenics classes every wednesday, and he's as flexible as a wet noodle.

 

[Apostata]

Horses were no where near as flexible IRL as they are in WB.

as the horse riding itself is pretty ****ed in MnB.

This.

 

[Hibiki]

You make good points, Apostata. However, I think we're arguing about two different things here, to some degree.

I am speaking of fighting in a group, cavalry versus infantry. This is far, far different from fighting one-on-one. In a one on one situation, neither really have the advantage. However, let's look at it from the perspective of a dozen or more infantrymen, versus a slightly smaller, or equal sized group of cavalry.

The infantry have two options. They can split up, in which case they will be repeatedly trampled before having time to get up, or they can clump together in a tight formation, in which case they will be repeatedly trampled before having time to get up.

Where-as one horse that can't be stopped isn't such a big issue one-on-one, a group of unstoppable horses can just "trample spam" - something that can only be, sometimes, countered with a sufficient number of pole-arm wielding infantry sticking close together.

And, just for the record, I spent a few hours going cavalry and trying my "trampling" technique on actual players. You would be surprised at how many passes I was able to trample infantrymen while taking very little, if any damage. If they try to stab you with a bayonet, just down block and trot into them, and you're set. It's rather stupid

That said, I respect you quite a lot for not being a "mongolian pistol raider," Apostata. It sounds like you play cavalry correctly, and I wish there were more like you. I would actually enjoy going cavalry if these issues were addressed, and if cavalry would actually work together with eachother, and in support of the infantry.