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Battlefield 1

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F.F.C._fritz

Grandmaster Knight
WB
Yeah, but the battles always feel (even if it is still a 64 players game) much smaller than RO2. It doesn't really feel authentic WW1 to go Tally oh over the top with another couple of guys in plain day...

Anyway, I think that a game like Battlefield 1 with all that tanks, planes, auto, semi-auto etc. activity would have been better if set in good ol' WW2. I mean, it feels like one of those WW2 games of old (but gold)...
 
I get the idea that it should be an action packed game, be fun and so on, but I don't want it to be ridiculous. I at least hope for an OK SP campaign.
 

Wellenbrecher

Trümmerfrau
Archduke
WBM&BVC
It's gonna be a stupid feel-good story that bashes you around the head about how bad it is to be racist.
The characters will constantly spout BS cool punchlines and there will be some comically absurd bad guy.
 
Spent 20 minutes watching live gameplay, haven't noticed a single bolt action rifle. You know, like these from ww1 and stuff. What I however have seen - a red-dotted Lewis gun, a scoped Lewis gun, a bayonetted MP-18, a red-dotted pump action shotgun, a bayonetted and bipodded mauser with a scope and a semi-automatic M1 Carabine lookalike  :party:
 

Age of Empires ¶ Densetsu

Age of Empires II
Marquis
Sounds fun. I still enjoy Battlefield 3/4 for the relentless arcadey fun. I wonder what part the horses will play...

BenKenobi said:
Spent 20 minutes watching live gameplay, haven't noticed a single bolt action rifle. You know, like these from ww1 and stuff. What I however have seen - a red-dotted Lewis gun, a scoped Lewis gun, a bayonetted MP-18, a red-dotted pump action shotgun, a bayonetted and bipodded mauser with a scope and a semi-automatic M1 Carabine lookalike  :party:

A poor man's Bad Company campaign.
 

Lumos

Archduke
WBWF&SNWM&BVC
I also watched some gameplay, and despite really liking what I see, it made me want to run a scopeless bolt-action and pretend I'm doing it properly.
Hopefully with more weapons present there's going to be more rifles and less SMGs?...

Wellenbrecher said:
It's gonna be a stupid feel-good story that bashes you around the head about how bad it is to be racist.
The characters will constantly spout BS cool punchlines and there will be some comically absurd bad guy.
We'll see. BF3/4's campaigns weren't like that, but we'll see what happens with this one.
 

Wellenbrecher

Trümmerfrau
Archduke
WBM&BVC
But they were made in a time before EA realised how much "good" PR they can get by seemingly pandering to certain opinions. They weren't made my Swedes either :razz:
And not with a black character in charge during a time full of what we call racism now.
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
France coming in DLC. No word on Russia.
http://www.pcgamesn.com/battlefield-1/battlefield-1-multiplayer-factions
 

DanAngleland

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNW
Radalan said:
I find it weird that it comes as a shock to some people. It's the exact same way guns and factions were handled in Battlefield 3 and 4.    :???:

I never played either of those, but that is a daft feature. Did they poll a group of four year olds who got upset that they couldn't use every gun with any faction? It is hardly a hardcore idea to have the correct weapons for the correct side- all you have to do to try the other weapons is change team, surely something any player would want to do at some point anyway! It is hard to avoid the impression that at the same time as wanting to try a new setting, they have a conflicting urge to undermine that setting so as to basically recreate the gameplay of previous titles. I doubt Battlefield players would run a mile if they made a game with less emphasis on scopes, laser sights and automatic weapons.

Regarding the argument that the game was never very realistic, there are small ways in which it is less realistic now than BF2 for example (such as the unrestricted gun selection regardless of team), and the older games were tremendously popular. If anything it would be natural for the series to become porgressively more realistic as the graphics become more lifelike, since this makes the unrealistic features stand out more.
 

Jhessail

Panzervixen
Grandmaster Knight
Almalexia said:
I'd say it depends on the timeframe, the unit at hand, and circumstances, from what I've read, and I have definitely done a fair amount of reading, though I'm no dedicated scholar. Really as far as I can tell they definitely used it at multiple points during the war, which is why claims to the contrary (which I've really only seen on this forum) puzzles me, but I'd appreciate input from the other side on the issue.
You would first have to define what "human waves" actually is. In my understanding, this usually means a pure infantry attack, where the infantry march ahead standing tall, without taking advantage of terrain/cover or using fire & movement. Some times supported by armour and artillery, but hardly in any form that could be called "combined arms warfare".

That kind of attack is the most basic form of attack, hence why it was used by poor quality armies only, as it also resulted in high casualty rates and dubious chances of victory. It was never the official doctrine of the Red Army but it was used out of desperation, most notably during the Russo-Finnish Winter War of 1939-1940 and in 1941 and 1942 stages of WW2 Eastern Front, though even there it was not the only type of "tactic" used and not even the prevalent one. It is quite possible that it was utilised occasionally later.

The reasons why Soviets had to use it were many fold but the lack of qualified officers thanks to Stalin's Purges and the unplanned and barely controlled massive expansion of the Red Army were the primary underlying reasons. Red Army grew from around 1.3 million soldiers in 1937 to over triple that amount by 1941 (before German attack) while losing over 10% of its officer corps, focusing especially on the senior ranks. Which meant that to replace the losses, junior officers were jumped two or even three grades up, and officer-cadets in military academies were graduated early to take their places. Furthermore, the Purge had created an atmosphere of hostility and distrust, where officers sought to do the bare minimum - if you did nothing, you could be blamed for nothing.

In any case, why it was simple to do was that it required minimum amount of pre-planning, you did not have to synchronise with air units, tanks, engineers or artillery very closely (if at all), you did not have to train the soldiers extensively, and you did not need a large amount of well-trained and -motivated junior officers and senior NCOs to lead by example. STAVKA deliberately tried to get away from it through both training manuals and courses, emphasised cooperation between arms, decreasing the number of men while increasing the number of guns, introducing more automatic and support weaponry and via changes to doctrine and organisation.

The myth of "Human Wave Red Army" lingers as an unfortunate side-effect of Cold War and it's anti-Soviet propaganda, decades worth of non-access to Soviet archives and the collective pop-culture stereotype that routinely gets recycled in movies and games. For example, a 7-man Soviet squads that were attached to tank platoons had 1 man with SVT-40 automatic rifle, 1 with DP-27 light machine gun and the other five with PPSh-41 sub-machine guns. A 10 to 12 man rifle squad in an infantry regiment would have the squad leader with SVT-40, one man with DP-27 and the rest with a mixture of PPSh-41 and Mosin-Nagants, though squads were hardly ever at paper strength throughout the war. This is significant firepower, roughly comparable to both German and US squads of the time.
 

Almalexia

Her Flamboyance, the Calipha
Duke
M&BWBNW
All appeals to reason, and I agree wholeheartedly. I reviewed the passage I had in mind, which was by a certain German tank commander named Huber, and it was a "wave" of infantry twelve ranks deep. However, I had forgotten that this was preceded by a large scale artillery bombardment. Does that exclude it from the term of a human wave? Personally, I'd say no.

Anyways, I do not mean to say that it was the main tactic of the Soviet Army. I'm just puzzled why some folks (looking at you, Joe  :razz:) give off the impression it was never used, when it certainly was.
 

Jhessail

Panzervixen
Grandmaster Knight
That would qualify.

Human wave attack is not inherently doomed to failure - if the preceding artillery bombardment is of sufficient strength and the infantry follow it up closely enough, and the defenders are not well entrenched, the attacker can gain sufficient surprise effect, so as to reach the first line of defence. It was also occasionally used by other countries as well, and let's not forget that the People's Liberation Army of China utilised it well into the Korean war.

Problem is that if there is any short of a gap between the artillery and the infantry, the defenders have time to rally out of their shelters and then rain fire on the attackers - a decently trained force at that point switches to fire & movement, and would also have supporting weapons available for suppressive fire, but a poorly trained (and/or equipped) force has no alternative but to keep going in lines/ranks.
 

Almalexia

Her Flamboyance, the Calipha
Duke
M&BWBNW
I'll go pull out the book and give the full quotation. And for good measure, a later one as well, as even though it is unrelated it has to be one of the most haunting recollections I've ever read in my life. Will include in the edit.

*EDIT*

"The shellfire suddenly breaks off.

I get up and position myself in the loader's hatch to have a look. As far as I can see, they're not shooting at us anymore, but the front rumbles away. The enemy offensive is in full swing... Over there, across the crest of the slope opposite us, the enemy appears: Russian infantry. As far as the eye can see, to left and right, they occupy the entire crest, followed by a second wave. We really didn't see them. The company commander radios: 'Hold your fire.' We couldn't do anything anyway, the range is too great, I estimate it to be about 3,000 metres.

The attack waves are about 50 metres apart. Now and then a shell flies over, but lands in front of us in the fields, to the right or left. We concentrate on counting the Red Army's attack waves. There are now seven, eight, nine, now twelve. Thousands of Russians pour forward endlessly, there must be a whole infantry division committed against us. Our eyes flicker along the horizon to left and right; no tanks, no anti-tank guns in sight.

Then we hear the 'Urrah!' The east wind carries it from the other slope to us. The first waves have already reached the bottom of the valley, and we can no longer see them beyond the curve of the slope. There is a continuous 'Urrah!' - to the front, to the left, to the right. We are uneasy. We aren't able to shoot at what we can see. They are too far away, it would only reveal our positions. Actually, we are in a good position in our sandy hollow, with only the gun protruding forward and the turret about the top of the hollow.

Then it all begins again. The twelfth wave is the last that I see, then I pull myself back inside and quickly close the hatch. There is a further heavy firestrike by the Russian artillery. We are plastered with fire. A 172mm shell detonates a metre from the edge of our pit, hurling earth over the tank, sand flies over the cupola; Sattler has already pulled his head in. Now there's pandemonium. Just get us out of this hole. Sattler orders. 'Start the engine' and Richard Braumandl shouts, 'Herr Feldwebel, I know!' As the tank digs itself out of the sand and moves backwards, our stern points into the air, and everyone fears if we take an artillery hit, we may flip right over. We drive back out of the pit with our engine howling." -Johann Huber, Oct. 7th 1944




*EDIT2*

"Everyone wants to pull back, the Russians have stormed the southern part of the village; a powerful tank unit must have moved in there, unnoticed by us. We feared as much. To our right, the south, we have no protection. 7 Company wasn't there to beat off the enemy in good times. Two minutes later, when we are all positioned across the road, ready to finally turn right and descend the hill we climbed an hour before, an Unteroffizier rises up from the ground. He has been wounded in the belly with shrapnel fire from a Stalin organ, right through from left to right, sliced right open. He holds his spilled guts with both arms, as if holding a basket, staggers to our tank, wants to climb on, I reach from him, he cries with a pained expression, his eyes full of fear, 'Comrades, take me with you!' I want to pull him up over the turret skirting, but he can't hold on, he doesn't have the strength. He falls, with a hand to his belly, holding his entrails together, slowly keels over, sits on the road, and pulls himself halfway onto his side. His spilled intestines pour onto the sand. Dreadful. A man falls to his death, trying to reach for his last chance. I couldn't get hold of his hand, I was left grasping at empty air.

Then Richard drives on for another ten metres before halting again. The dreadful moment has passed, but there are still the living. I pull them up onto our tank, as the infantry don't know where they can climb aboard, I tug at arms, hands, necks. New, fresh clothing, recently issued, I guess there are from a Volksgrenadier division. They have the number 551 on their shoulderboards... We now have a whole group of soldiers on the back, and meanwhile heavy mortar fire continues, with ever more soldiers fleeing from the south towards us; the Russians must be really close. Now we're off, running downhill, I have to get back into the turret. From the noise of the tracks I realize we're going faster and faster. And then the fireworks start. Following the Stalin organ salvoes, the firing of the as yet unsighted T-34s and the mortars, all hell now breaks loose. Braumandl shouts, 'Russians in the open, we're driving through them, we're surrounded!'

Have the Russians bypassed us? Have we failed to notice a pincer attack? These thoughts shoot through my head. I see nothing, but Sattler taps me on the shoulder and tells me to prepare the machine-gun, and then Isecke fires like mad with the turret machine-gun towards 2 o'clock. In the front, Karl also fires one burst after another with the radio-operator's machine-gun, and outside all hell breaks loose. Then Richard Braumandl shouts, 'Herr Feldwebel, the tank in front of us, dear God!" He stamps on the brakes, we all pitch forward, and we're off again. I am busy loading the machine-gun. It's difficult, as the main gun is fully depressed. There is now little space above the machine-gun breech to load the belt. 'Please don't jam,' I think. But it works fine.

We drove for a long time, with ricochets clicking constantly off the armour. They're firing at us with everything they have, it must be Russian infantry! If only there aren't any anti-tank guns nearby. After a good two kilometres, Isecke, the gunner, stops shooting. He raises the main gun again and Sattler says, 'We're through now.' We must have come about two kilometres through the Russian lines. Isecke orders me, 'Go out and check the turret, it's jammed.' We drive on, but much slower. As soon as I climb out of the hatch, I catch my breath. Our tank is empty. As I climb over the turret skirting, I see only one of our men is still there, clinging by his fingers to the grill of the engine decking and holding on. I stare on for a moment, and realise all of the infantry must have been shot off the back. None of them has survived. When I reach the Landser and try to pull him aboard, I see he's unharmed. He is an old soldier, I reckon at least 50, if not 55. Over the noise of the tracks, I shout to him, 'Where are the others?' But he can't say a word. He just crawls forward across the engine decking and says nothing, his teeth chattering as if it were 30 degrees below zero. He's in shock. But I need to find what's jamming the turret. That is not so easy. Finally, over on the gunner's side, I find an abandoned rifle that has jammed under the outer skirting. I have to work it back and forth to free it, and then I reckon that Isecke will be able to turn the turret.

Now we halt. Immediately, we turn the turret to 5 o'clock, so we can shoot backwards... Now what are we to do with the soldier who lies on his side; he will have to move if we are to ****. But he is not fit to walk, or jump off. I can see that the man has gone through hell and is the only survivor of perhaps a dozen men. Sattler agrees, we leave him up top, but he must move forward to the nose, where I secure him so that he does not place his feet on the radio-operator's machine-gun and doesn't obstruct Richard Braumandl's observation slit, which would be fatal. He still can't speak, but he understands. I can see that.

As I climb back through the hatch and don my headset, we receive new orders to take up positions either side of the road. The battle continues. The T-34s are pushing on. We are permitted 'free fire' on identified targets and are on the left side of the road. Apparently 7 Company is defending the right.

...About 900 metres away, on the hill in front of us, we hear a shot. Rose-red tracer! Damn, T-34s. So they are already here! Nothing for it but to get back into the tank. The other vehicles in our company have already opened fire, but we can see little of the enemy tanks. Only turrets and cupolas visible. We can't hit them beyond the ridge. Isecke also fires twice, then we give up. There's more going down to our right. 7 Company is over there. Our comrades are more involved in the tank battle than us - but I hear only their tank guns. And then the T-34s must have hit one of 7 Company. The tank burns. It isn't possible to see who's been hit. Most, or even all, have to pull back, we hear via the radio. We are ordered to withdraw a further two or three kilometres.

Once we are in position and evening is drawing on, Richard Braumandl begins to talk. 'Herr Feldwebel, what tank was that before us, driving in front of us, when we broke out? I wasn't able to see, as there were so many infantry in the way. You know how we drove down the hill afterwards.' The Feldwebel doesn't know. Richard asks again, 'Did you really not see him?' ' I didn't notice - there was too much happening.' 'Hmmm, what's Richard getting at?' I ask him. Then he explains. 'I only saw the tank in front of me with infantry that the Russians were shooting. But then the tank slipped into the ditch with its right track, and overran a group of our Landsers who were in the ditch taking cover from the Russians, with its right track. It was awful - arms and legs were hanging from the track, torn off by it, it drove over the soldiers for at least 30 metres, our own Landsers!' The blood drains from the three of us, Sattler says nothing, but he must have seen it too. Dreadful! The driver in front of is was responsible for the deaths of our own comrades - he simply rolled them flat when we broke out of the encirclement. Richard's words shock everyone. Nobody speaks a word, everyone thinks back to an hour and a half before when Richard shouted, 'Herr Feldwebel, the driver in front of us, dear God!' There's silence in the vehicle, when the only noise coming from the headsets, the sounds of the guns firing. Death has done a dreadful business today."

I struggle to think of any accounts that messed me up more.

Sorry for the off-topic though. I just figured I'd write this down while I had the book open.
 

Radalan

Count
WB
DanAngleland said:
Radalan said:
I find it weird that it comes as a shock to some people. It's the exact same way guns and factions were handled in Battlefield 3 and 4.    :???:

I never played either of those, but that is a daft feature. Did they poll a group of four year olds who got upset that they couldn't use every gun with any faction? It is hardly a hardcore idea to have the correct weapons for the correct side- all you have to do to try the other weapons is change team, surely something any player would want to do at some point anyway!

Yeah but the teams could just as well not be country specific at all. Basically, in the end, you have a bunch of camo wearing guys shooting at bunch of camo wearing guys, with a vast array of different guns from a many different countries, from all around the world. And the only things that are faction specific are the way the soldiers look, on which side of the map they start and what vehicles they're allowed to drive. And because it has a story mode, all of the multiplayer apparently has to tie into the setting and events of the story mode. Personally I don't really see any problems with it, once you figure that out. It's a bit like suspension of disbelief. Some people just can get past those stupid things for the sake of having fun, and others just can't.
 

Lumos

Archduke
WBWF&SNWM&BVC
Wellenbrecher said:
But they were made in a time before EA realised how much "good" PR they can get by seemingly pandering to certain opinions. They weren't made my Swedes either :razz:
And not with a black character in charge during a time full of what we call racism now.
But DICE has always been Swedish! Also, a black character in charge? I think they'd mentioned something about multiple main characters, which could explain the black dude on some variants of the cover, but otherwise the trailer lad is white. And probably English, since the black guy has to be from the Harlem Hellfighters. I guess.
I'm hoping for a German viewpoint as well. Hope dies last...

Adorno said:
France coming in DLC. No word on Russia.
http://www.pcgamesn.com/battlefield-1/battlefield-1-multiplayer-factions
Ha! As was expected.
From Battlefield 3/4/Hardline, we know that there's usually five DLC packs. As far as I know, Battlefront added two new "heroes", one per faction, per DLC pack, so having a new country added to BF1 per pack doesn't seem like a stretch. My bets are on France, Russia, Bulgaria, and two other less important countries being added through DLC. (:iamamoron:)

On another note: Can't wait for Premium!!!

Radalan said:
DanAngleland said:
snip
Personally, I don't mind it, but I've often found myself playing BF3/4, and realising I'm on X team somewhere halfway through a match. Before that I'm just firing at nearly-identical humanoid silhouettes. That renders the whole thing pointless, in that case teams might just be non-specific at all. Just call them "Sentinel" vs "Atlas" or whatever that has no grounding in reality and let it roll. Who cares?
But I remember playing BF2 and having my Chinese soldier speak Chinese, use Chinese weapons, and have Chinese tech available. And it was a BLAST. Limiting weapons per their own faction will end up making the game more fun, I believe. That'd allow for more interesting situations than encountering nothing but M16A3/AEK-971/ACE23 LOLOLOLOL. The different factions could have different weapon balance, and it'd be brilliant if I had to play differently whilst on different factions. BF2 (and probably 2142) did it. Why can't it be done again? It would be great!
 

Radalan

Count
WB
Lumos said:
Personally, I don't mind it, but I've often found myself playing BF3/4, and realising I'm on X team somewhere halfway through a match. Before that I'm just firing at nearly-identical humanoid silhouettes. That renders the whole thing pointless, in that case teams might just be non-specific at all. Just call them "Sentinel" vs "Atlas" or whatever that has no grounding in reality and let it roll. Who cares?
But I remember playing BF2 and having my Chinese soldier speak Chinese, use Chinese weapons, and have Chinese tech available. And it was a BLAST. Limiting weapons per their own faction will end up making the game more fun, I believe. That'd allow for more interesting situations than encountering nothing but M16A3/AEK-971/ACE23 LOLOLOLOL. The different factions could have different weapon balance, and it'd be brilliant if I had to play differently whilst on different factions. BF2 (and probably 2142) did it. Why can't it be done again? It would be great!

Now that you mention it, I agree.  :smile:
When I'll finally try it, I'll hurt a bit more inside.
Not going to buy it on release thought, Battlefield 4 on release was one of the biggest **** ups, as far as I recall.  :razz:
 

Rigadoon

Count
M&BWBWF&SNW
Lumos said:
Wellenbrecher said:
But they were made in a time before EA realised how much "good" PR they can get by seemingly pandering to certain opinions. They weren't made my Swedes either :razz:
And not with a black character in charge during a time full of what we call racism now.
But DICE has always been Swedish! Also, a black character in charge? I think they'd mentioned something about multiple main characters, which could explain the black dude on some variants of the cover, but otherwise the trailer lad is white. And probably English, since the black guy has to be from the Harlem Hellfighters. I guess.
I'm hoping for a German viewpoint as well. Hope dies last...
The Middle Eastern woman on horseback in the first trailer is a playable character.

Weapons are not faction locked because it interferes with progression. With six MP factions randomly selected between rounds it would be difficult for players to make meaningful progress towards the weapons they want if they had to progress six different characters independently. Obviously, the solution is to abandon the progression system in favor of giving each nation unique game-play but that's not happening.
 
Wait, so even after release you will have Lewis'ed Austro-Hungarian infantry battling Tommies with MP-18s? I thought it is just a gimmick to put in the beta so the weapons get tested.

Also, this is getting better and better.
 

Dxrkwave

Sergeant Knight at Arms
NWWBM&BWF&S
Im terrible at history from the world wars but i hope they bring in the american and japanese forces. Imagine doing Pearl Harbor all over again.

The only thing im a bit sad on is that we didn't see the Mosin Nagant or the Arisaka. Both extreme good weapons in that period.
 
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