Battle Stutter FIXED, but now ctd on saves-->edit:found temp fix

[saltjunkie]

*This is also in BugTracker*
I've spent the last several weeks testing/isolating as many variables as possible, as well as trying all the fixes mentioned in the 80+ pages in the tech forum. This is what I have discerned for those with similar specs (listed below).

1) The primary cause of battle stutter is this: This option is checked in the Warband .exe file-> App can handle >2GB addressest. If you UNCHECK this using CFF Explorer, the stutter will stop completely.

2) Unfortunately, the game often requires more than 1.5 or 2 gig of resource, especially when saving, so not having the afore mentioned option checked, the game can crash at inopportune times. This is particularly true if you play any mods, as they typically run more scripts than the native version.

3)I have not yet found an agreeable workaround for this. Does anyone know how to keep the exe. option uncheched, so it doesn't stutter, but also not have CTD when saving the game?? I've tried all the fixes listed in the forum. THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS.
  EDIT: A Temporary workaround:  I can save even after battles now: Here's how: After battle--> go into a city tavern-->then alt/tab out of the game, then go back into the game-->Hit F12, saving the game-->then hit esc and save in the menu as you usually do.
 
***Description of BATTLE STUTTER: A snapshot like effect where the game plays slowly and skips several frames at a time, causing impossible battle mechanics. This effect is most common when cavalry forces approach each other at high speeds, the player being one of them, of course. 

SPECS
Warband version 1.134
Win XP x64 Edition: Game is in the ProgramFiles (x86), Folder
Service pact 2
Amd Athlon 64 x2 Dual
Core Processor 6000+
6.00 GB of Ram
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260
GFX Driver 260.89

RGL_Log
Starting new log file.
Version:  1.134

-- OS: Microsoft Windows XP Professional x64 Edition Service Pack 2 (build 3790)
-- RAM: Available physical RAM: 4095MB/4096MB
-- CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 6000+ (AuthenticAMD)
- L1 cache size: 64K
- L2 cache size: 1024K
- CPU Features: FPU MMX SSE SSE2 SSE3 HTT 3DNow! Ex3DNow! MmxExt
- Number of CPUs: 2 ( Speed: ~3090MHz / ~3090MHz )

 

[TOWDrac]

Yeah, it's a nasty Catch 22 type of situation: you need that RAM to run well...but if you use a command line switch to allocate more, you glitch a lot...which happens in several games if you use a switch.

I found this massively in PoP, since it has many resources. I also think we found a culprit in how the WB engine handles sound...the instant I disable sound, all these problems are solved. Same thing for Blood and Steel and in Native when this problem arises.


If you disable sound, do these problems go away for you? If you say yes, we've found EXACTLY the culprit...or at least a huge part of it.

You have Nvidia, I see!
I'm new to working around these errors, having gotten WB recently, but something being thrown around a lot on the WB forums is it's an ATI problem. You've just confirmed my suspicion that it is not...maybe a specific inefficiency making the problem worse, but I believe the problem lies in the engine, not the hardware.

I REALLY want to find a way around this, because this makes me paranoid as I play. It also messes up what should be the most enjoyable battles.

I do know one thing, though...I never had a hint of a problem in the original, whether it was Native or heavily modded.

Unfortunately, I'm getting to the point where I don't think there is a workaround...I think it needs a hefty patch; there's nothing we can do to truly alleviate it.

I'm running the latest patch.
WinXP x86 SP 2
Intel Core2 Duo E8400
4GB RAM
ATI HD 4870 1GB

So we have the same problems with the same results and my computer is basically the opposite of yours (AMD vs. Intel, Nvidia vs. ATI, etc.).

As a side comment, this is a very similar problem to what Oblivion had. In that game you had to have your mod load order correct, which wasn't hard. Even then, too many resources=crash city. You allocate more RAM to it and you get glitchy...and with Oblivion you'd probably still crash eventually.

 

[saltjunkie]

Thanks for the input. I tried disabling sound before, and I tried it again, as per your request, but no go.

Again, does anyone know how to keep the command line switch uncheched, so the game doesn't stutter, but also not have CTD when saving the game?? Please, anyone?

*I definately think it's a game engine problem, like you. Intel/AMD and Nvidia/ati  have nothing to do with it. The stuttering and save issues transcend all brands and OSs; the 80+ pages of tech support prove this.

 

[TOWDrac]

Unfortunately, people with beefier computers than we have report the same problem and can't get around it...so...there may not be a whole lot we can do.

In further research, I noticed people remarking in older posts that stutter became noticeable in 1.125. One person I saw did note, however, that some stutter has been present since beta.

My fear is that we're just spinning our wheels here, so to speak, without being able to actually get anywhere...if that is so, then it's very sad, because there is no other game like this, and mods like these don't exist anywhere else, either. This problem (or set of problems) makes it very hard to enjoy playing


EDIT: What mods do you use?

EDIT #2: Turned off "load textures on demand" and it gave me a runtime error (presumably due to overrunning VRAM) but as soon as I disabled sound I could get in, play, and everything was fine.
I don't like how sound is handled here...disabling it my not be a cure-all, but how the game handles sound is part of the problem, I think.

 

[TOWDrac]

POSSIBLE THING!

Go in your rgl config...find an entry about using MT on demand textures. Set that to 1.

See if that helps you at all...it seems to be working for me as long as I don't crank the battlesizer way up.

 

[andysmart]

hey guys.. i appreciate your efforts.. this battle stutter thing is really getting to me..
i have tried setting the texture mt thing to 1.. that maybe helped a bit nut nothing significant. (my battle size is 100 i think), and i tried disabling sound.. again the sound thing maybe helped alittle but it was certianly not a fix.. and to be fair.. i kind of like the yelling and the bashing and the screaming ..
i didn't try the first fix at the top of the thread coz i dont have cff explorer... but if its going to make my game crash randomly then maybe its not such a great idea anyway.

may the force be with you.

 

[TOWDrac]

Yeah, for me playing without sound is NO fun. It's my opinion that this is a really horrible glitch...I have the same complaint here as I did for Oblivion: in a game designed to be modded, it's really bad that complex mods can break it. Heck, this can even pop up in native.

I've tried everything...absolutely every setting and I think I've tried every combination of settings. It has NOTHING to do with graphical power...I crank my options down and that doesn't make a difference. I refuse to put battle sizer under 100...far more worked in the original M&B and just knowing that you can't have large battles because there's a terrible bug is too much in a game who's main selling point is the amazing battles.

If any of you have played with previous patches, did this error show up for you?


One other thing, I tend to check my RGL_log after an occurrence of this, and it is ALWAYS accompanied by HERR_BUFFER_LOCK_FAILED! showing up multiple times with various numbers underneath the error warning.
Does anybody know EXACTLY what that means?

I notice the MT setting is always set back to zero after I play, so that's a false lead.

I remember someone postulating on the PoP boards that WB dumps sound into your VRAM, too.

I also refuse to believe that this game is more demanding than, say, Crysis or very very heavily modded Oblivion (which can have at least dozens of scripts going every second). I see nothing that warrants that kind of power...the only thing I can think of would be the scripts, but, again, have massively stress tested with Oblivion...I can guarantee that was driving my processor harder.

So...we have memory management.
I think it all comes down to that...with 4GB RAM, another 8GB on my page file and 1GB VRAM, I don't see why even high end graphics should bring me down. Indeed, they never have.

Have 64-bit systems had this problem? Those systems can use much more memory than I can with my 32-bit system...if they have this problem, then the problem is bigger than I think.

 

[andysmart]

i just had an idea.. it might be a rubbish idea.. but... does anyone NOT get battle stutter... if there is such a person.. maybe we can examine their end and compare it to ours.

i'm running native and its pretty bad in my game.

i'm not incredibly software savvy, so rl logs and stuff like that , i dont know where to start.

i think it has only been patched once since i have owned it.. and it did it on the last patch too. and my system is 32bit too.. i think.

 

[TOWDrac]

Yeah, if someone who doesn't get any of this could tell us their configuration...well...my theory is that this is inefficient memory management, so I think if your system is an extraordinary beast and you have substantial raw strength, then your system would just brute force WB into working.


EDIT: Now this is happening in Blood and Steel...this has NEVER happened before in that mod and I've changed absolutely nothing. What the heck is going on?
It confirms that the error is ALWAYS accompanied by a bunch of HERR_BUFFER_LOCK_FAILED! messages, though.

This is frustrating! I absolutely cannot enjoy the game like this...and now I'm paranoid because it could happen at any time.

EDIT #2: So, Blood and Steel is working fine again...just took a complete re-install and NOT TOUCHING RGL_CONFIG AT ALL. Do not touch the file! I left it alone and cranked up my graphics setting...no shenanigans are afoot now.

...except for in PoP. Same thing there...and I noticed something: this problem seems to hog your memory and NOT LET IT GO. I start up, load game, and am fine.
HOWEVER, if I start up, do a couple custom battles and THEN load game, it crashes while loading with the same old error messages.

EDIT #3: Well, I eliminated the stutter by commenting out new buffer lines and going DX7...and now I get no stutter!
...which is replaced by a runtime error in the middle of battle.

Just cannot win with this thing.

EDIT #4: Got it to work. There is no exclamation mark at the end of that because I'm not excited about this...I had to go DX7, crank texture detail WAY down, and lower the battle sizer a lot.
This is a ridiculous compromise.

 

[andysmart]

yes i can get rid of stutter if i only have a battle size of 2 and play without texture detail.. but that kind of defeats the point.
are the dev gonna fix this problem or not.. i have unfinished business in game to attend to but fear that the stuttering will give me an epileptic fit so refuse to play.

do you think a re-install of warband would fix it?

 

[TOWDrac]

Already reinstalled several times...it seems to help some of the time.

Try it...but don't expect too much.


EDIT OF CAUTIOUS TRIUMPH:
Okay, so the problem is inefficient use of memory.

SO...we brute force the problem...just simply overpower it.

Have you used the /3GB /USERVA=2990 boot switches?

I used those plus reduced battle size to 100, plus altered many settings from medium-low.
Dunno if the rest of the settings had much to do with it, but at least the boot switches and the battle size reduction had the much to do with it.


I have cautious optimism here...but it's working so far in my stress tests (cluttered battle field, MANY MANY lords involved, a bit over a thousand troops involved, and in PoP.

I also upgraded back to the latest Catalyst driver.

If you want to see my current RGL_Config:

first_time = 0

texture_detail = 80

render_buffer_size = 15

max_framerate = 40

start_windowed = 0

use_pixel_shaders = 1

use_vertex_shaders = 1

fake_reflections = 0

show_framerate = 0

use_ondemand_textures = 1

use_ondemand_textures_mt = 0

disable_music = 0

disable_sound = 0

disable_frequency_variation = 0

cheat_mode = 0

enable_blood = 1

enable_edit_mode = 0

force_single_threading = 1

debug_mode = 0

display_width = 1280

display_height = 1024

display_bits = 32

antialiasing = 0

sample_quality = 0

alpha2coverage = 0

force_vsync = 0

shadowmap_quality = 0

shader_quality = 1

postfx_dof = 0

postfx_hdr = 0

postfx_autoexp = 0

flora_degrade_distance = 75.6089

flora_lod_detail = 1

use_instancing = 0

use_secure_connection = 0

max_number_of_connections = 16

look_for_server_on_this_machine = 0

music_volume = 0.4000

sound_volume = 1.0000

mouse_sensitivity = 0.9366

invert_mouse = 0

enable_lighting = 1

enable_particles = 1

enable_blood = 1

enable_character_shadows = 1

enable_accurate_shadows = 1

number_of_corpses = 5

grass_density = 25

combat_speed = 2

friend_combat_difficulty = 2

adapter_format = 0

reduce_combat_ai = 0

reduce_campaign_ai = 0

combat_difficulty = 2

display_labels = 1

display_targeting_reticule = 1

display_attack_direction = 1

turn_camera_with_horse_in_first_person = 2

verbose_damage = 1

verbose_shot_difficulty = 1

battle_size = 0.5863

attack_direction_control = 2

defend_direction_control = 0

lance_control = 0

anisotropic_filtering = 1

enable_environment_shadows = 1

verbose_casualties = 1

verbose_experience = 1

realistic_shadows_on_plants = 0

number_of_ragdolls = 5

gamma = 2.2000

character_detail = 0.8315

character_shadow_detail = 0.5213

control_mouse_movement_y_scale = 1.5000

blood_stains = 2

use_winmm_audio = 0

enable_version_check = 1

enable_aspect_ratio_control = 1

realistic_headshots = 0

auto_gfx_quality = 0

EDIT #2: Just cranked my battle size way up...it's holding! The boot switches seem to be key. I used them before and they made me crash out at loading...but I've changed some things and now they're doing the trick.

EDIT #3: Just cranked up all my settings and my battle sizer on my stress test...it still holds!

You'll want to do the boot switches, for sure. See if they help.

 

[SPD_Phoenix]

In can see in your rgl log that you have load texture on demand on. That's a major source of stuttering for me, but some are experiencing memory problem with it off. Also, I use larger render buffer size as recommanded in another thread (I use 1/2 of total VRAM). Still stuttering abit when spawning and large number of horses/trees, but it is much smoother overall. I'm still looking for a better setting for my PC

System:

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Operating System: Windows XP Home Edition (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 3 (2600.xpsp_sp3_gdr.100427-1636)
Processor: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.40GHz (2 CPUs)
Memory: 3072MB RAM
Page File: 524MB used, 7503MB available
Windows Dir: C:\WINDOWS
DirectX Version: DirectX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)

Video:

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Card name: NVIDIA GeForce 8600 GTS
Manufacturer: NVIDIA
Chip type: GeForce 8600 GTS
DAC type: Integrated RAMDAC
Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_0400&SUBSYS_09501462&REV_A1
Display Memory: 256.0 MB
Current Mode: 1440 x 900 (32 bit) (75Hz)
Monitor: Plug and Play Monitor
Monitor Max Res: 1600,1200
Driver Name: nv4_disp.dll
Driver Version: 6.14.0011.5819 (English)

Note: I don't know if having 2 monitors would make my video card works harder than it should (it gets hot quickly and drops a few FPS).

Rgl log:

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first_time = 0

texture_detail = 75

render_buffer_size = 128

max_framerate = 65

start_windowed = 0

use_pixel_shaders = 0

use_vertex_shaders = 1

fake_reflections = 0

show_framerate = 0

use_ondemand_textures = 0

use_ondemand_textures_mt = 0

disable_music = 0

disable_sound = 0

disable_frequency_variation = 1

cheat_mode = 0

enable_blood = 1

enable_edit_mode = 0

force_single_threading = 0

debug_mode = 0

display_width = 1440

display_height = 900

display_bits = 32

antialiasing = 0

sample_quality = 0

alpha2coverage = 0

force_vsync = 0

shadowmap_quality = 1

shader_quality = 1

postfx_dof = 0

postfx_hdr = 0

postfx_autoexp = 0

flora_degrade_distance = 75.0000

flora_lod_detail = 1

use_instancing = 0

use_secure_connection = 1

max_number_of_connections = 64

look_for_server_on_this_machine = 0

music_volume = 0.0000

sound_volume = 0.4694

mouse_sensitivity = 0.6714

invert_mouse = 0

enable_lighting = 1

enable_particles = 1

enable_blood = 1

enable_character_shadows = 1

enable_accurate_shadows = 1

number_of_corpses = 4

grass_density = 25

combat_speed = 3

friend_combat_difficulty = 2

adapter_format = 0

reduce_combat_ai = 0

reduce_campaign_ai = 0

combat_difficulty = 1

display_labels = 0

display_targeting_reticule = 1

display_attack_direction = 0

turn_camera_with_horse_in_first_person = 2

verbose_damage = 0

verbose_shot_difficulty = 0

battle_size = 1.0000

attack_direction_control = 2

defend_direction_control = 1

lance_control = 0

anisotropic_filtering = 0

enable_environment_shadows = 1

verbose_casualties = 0

verbose_experience = 0

realistic_shadows_on_plants = 0

number_of_ragdolls = 3

gamma = 2.2000

character_detail = 0.5000

character_shadow_detail = 0.5105

control_mouse_movement_y_scale = 1.5000

blood_stains = 1

use_winmm_audio = 0

enable_version_check = 1

enable_aspect_ratio_control = 1

realistic_headshots = 1

auto_gfx_quality = 0

 

[ragamer]

I have been monitorizing this issue on my comp and I have reached a point on realizing that it's a Memory/Resource Leak problem, it happens on any Mod (Including Native) I used so far (And the Time Degradation doesn't show any particular dependency with the Memory Signature of the Mod, for example the difference in total memory requirements between PoP and Native are huge), it just requires the right ammount of time (I have my system running at battle size of 150 WITHOUT the external battlesizer tool).

Why I'm so sure it's a Memory/Resource leak?... Simple, I have got the patience to test the same situation after a fresh restart and after some hours of gameplay and the stuttering appeared and the hicups were longer the more I spent playing.

I use this 2 situations to check the "level of degrading" I have:

Siege Defenders Reinforcement Wave Spawn
When a new wave of defenders spawn and the attackers are on the spawn zone waiting for them, triggering an insta-collision. This is the best meassurement as there is always some stuttering (I assume because of collision calculations, but can also be the "spawn sound") but when time passes the system can freeze up to 12s before returning (This is the record) and it increases linearly with the time spent on the game.

Cavalry Clashes
When 2 Cavalry charges collide and form a "dense melee". This is another classic that shows gradual degradation over time (Particularly easy to monitor on PoP if you fight the Jatu with your own Cavalry) with more often hicups and longer in duration the more you have stayed without restarting.


Some ppl on the lots of posts about this issue seem to think it's linked to pressence of trees and/or complex environments... It's not the case, I have extended my Cavalry/Infantry Clashes Test between dense forests/pure desert, Simple/Complex Castles environments and the stuttering is mainly related to the number of units "clashing" and the time spent on the game already, obviously average FPS is different but stuttering duration and frequency is not affected by the environment.


Degradation Speed is rougly proportinal with the ammount of times the above 2 situations happen as I have also got the patience to alter my gameplay when facing this 2 situations to ranged engagements and "probing" regularly (with cavalry and infantry clashes) to check effectively how I can stay like 5-6 hours in a row playing avoiding this 2 particular situations without "creating" too much stuttering... Meanwhile if I dare to play in a way that I trigger them too often, I have to restart the game once per 1-2 hours.


I don't think that my particular speccs have an impact on the problem, as it's clearly an Engine issue at reclaiming whatever resources are used at those 2 particular moments (With resources I also include VRAM "access time" degradation for example) but here goes the details, anyway:

RGL_Log Extract:

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Starting new log file.
Version:  1.134

-- OS: Microsoft Windows Vista  Service Pack 2 (build 6002), 64-bit
-- RAM: Available physical RAM: 2537MB/4094MB
-- CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU    E8400  @ 3.00GHz (GenuineIntel)
- L2 cache size: 6144K
- CPU Features: FPU MMX SSE SSE2 SSE3 SSSE3 EST HTT
- Number of CPUs: 2 ( Speed: ~3000MHz / ~3000MHz )

-- GPU:
- D3D9 Adapter: 0 / Driver: nvd3dum.dll / Description: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260
- Texture Memory: 2668 ( Available Texture Memory: 2656 )

Received stats and achievements from Steam

RGL_Config:

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first_time = 0

texture_detail = 100

render_buffer_size = 15

max_framerate = 40

start_windowed = 0

use_pixel_shaders = 1

use_vertex_shaders = 1

fake_reflections = 1

show_framerate = 0

use_ondemand_textures = 1

disable_music = 0

disable_sound = 0

disable_frequency_variation = 0

cheat_mode = 0

enable_blood = 1

enable_edit_mode = 0

force_single_threading = 0

debug_mode = 0

display_width = 1680

display_height = 1050

display_bits = 32

antialiasing = 2

sample_quality = 0

alpha2coverage = 1

force_vsync = 1

shadowmap_quality = 1

shader_quality = 1

postfx_dof = 1

postfx_hdr = 2

postfx_autoexp = 1

flora_degrade_distance = 100.0000

flora_lod_detail = 0

use_instancing = 1

use_secure_connection = 1

max_number_of_connections = 64

look_for_server_on_this_machine = 0

music_volume = 0.2042

sound_volume = 0.7899

mouse_sensitivity = 0.5000

invert_mouse = 0

enable_lighting = 1

enable_particles = 1

enable_blood = 1

enable_character_shadows = 1

enable_accurate_shadows = 1

number_of_corpses = 3

grass_density = 50

combat_speed = 1

friend_combat_difficulty = 2

adapter_format = 0

reduce_combat_ai = 0

reduce_campaign_ai = 0

combat_difficulty = 2

display_labels = 1

display_targeting_reticule = 1

display_attack_direction = 1

turn_camera_with_horse_in_first_person = 2

verbose_damage = 1

verbose_shot_difficulty = 1

battle_size = 1.0000

attack_direction_control = 2

defend_direction_control = 1

lance_control = 0

anisotropic_filtering = 1

enable_environment_shadows = 1

verbose_casualties = 1

verbose_experience = 1

realistic_shadows_on_plants = 0

number_of_ragdolls = 3

gamma = 2.2000

character_detail = 1.0000

character_shadow_detail = 0.5058

control_mouse_movement_y_scale = 1.5000

blood_stains = 1

use_winmm_audio = 0

enable_version_check = 1

enable_aspect_ratio_control = 1

auto_gfx_quality = 0

EDIT: I forgot to add something. When the degradation is starting (so the hicups are brief) and I'm checking Cavalry Clashes, the frequency of the stuttering is more or less linked with the swinging speed of the units involved... As if the problem was located at some point in the swing resolution when a lot of units attack at the same time. This is 99% compatible with the "Sound Fix" some ppl posted as precissely the concurrent sounds of multiple enemies fighting close to the player can "spike" at some moments, specially if something is gradually degraded over time on the process.

 

[andysmart]

without wanting to sound like too much of an idiot..
whats a boot switch?
where do i find it?
and what to i change it too?

cheers

 

[saltjunkie]

without wanting to sound like too much of an idiot..
whats a boot switch?
where do i find it?
and what to i change it too?

cheers

Go here for instructions: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,113029.msg2728668.html#msg2728668
Go down to Nakusin's first post. He uses explorer suite, and i use Cff Explorer; both work well. You want to turn the option,  "Application can handle >2gb address space," off. By turning it off, my stutter prob. in battle stopped. Let me know how it turns out.

 

[abadgaem]

I had this exact problem but fixed it with a simpler solution.

TURN OFF Load Textures on Demand in the Warband Launcher Options.  Then set texture detail to 60% or less, depending on your rig.

If you do this you won't crash on startup, nor will you have the stuttering issues in game.  By the way I'm playing with everything else at max and with 150 simultaneous battle units. 

HOWEVER, after a period of time, maybe a couple of hours or so your game will start to stutter in general due to accumulated memory leaks so just restart the game or your comp if necessary to resolve that.

 

[saltjunkie]

I've tried those solutions in the past, but to no avail. For my system, the only thing that fixes stutter is turning off the command line switch.

 

[andysmart]

ok.. so i dl'd explorer suit and switched the >2gb thing off.. and it seems to have done the trick.. i still get a little bit of stutter but not long freezes like before. we'll see how it holds up...
is this the same thing as the boot switches mentioned by towdrac, or is this another "fix" if so i'd like to try towdracs bootswitch thing too.

but at least its playable now.

why(if it is this easy to remedy) has it not been included in a patch yet..
taleworlds needs a slap

 

[saltjunkie]

AndySmart, we were both talking about the same thing, so you're good. I'm glad it worked for you.

 

[Helz]

Most people probably won't think this is worth it, but the stutter stopped for me after I switched to DX7 in the Video:configure options.  I don't have a really great video card (8800gt) and I wasn't previously able to play with the Battle sizer above 50 anyway.  Now I can play with Battlesizer at 150 with no stuttering.  There is definitely a hit to the graphics, especially lighting, but its really not that terrible.  Personally, I'll take the oddly lit rooms if it means large seamless battles any day.