SP Native Battle Morale (v1.5 for 0.960Native)

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kaeldragor said:
Chel - I checked through the thread and while I love this idea, I had a question... Cohesion seems to be described differently in different posts.  Some describe it as a pure average of health percentage, but the first post doesn't.

10 people x 100% health = 100% (each person's health is worth 10% of the cohesion)
10 - 2 people (dead) = 80%
10 - 2 (dead) - 4 people @ 50% health (wounded) = 4 x 100% (40) + 4 x 50% (20) = 60% total average

... not 40%.  Am I missing something?

Edit 1: (Also, I meant to give my feedback that the bravery bonus should definitely be at .5 per kill.  After all, it isn't the only thing helping morale, so a few points can make all the difference, and any but a hands-off general (difficult to play in EGII) is going to kill more than his/her proportional share.)

Edit 2: Testing seems fine.  I would like it if there was a way to finish the battle with the enemy routed, without the penalties of a retreat... though I suppose if you routed any significant enemy, the normal penalties wouldn't be there anyway due to casualties inflicted...  How complicated would it be to allow a "normal" exit with enemy troops still on screen?

Yes, you're missing the two dead guys, they still count. so it would be
4 x 100% (40) + 4 x 50% (20) + 2 x 0% = 40% average.

Yes, I agree, bravery bonus of +1 cohesion per kill is too significant, +1/2 is better.

I was not aware that there are any penalties given when you TAB out of the battle (with no enemies nearby), what are they?
 
Chel said:
yeah, I'll try to add the battle ending after one of the sides is routed completely. But you can tab out of the fight if you've routed the enemy ...
Sure but it means loosing some party morale, no? Then why?
And if the enemy routed your troops, I'm not sure its fair to end the battle and not give them the chance to pursue..
That's right. I thought only about enemy.
what about the bravery bonus, I'm wondering if its effect is too much. Anyone been able to rout the enemy too easily with it? Or is it fine?
Bravery works fine for me. At least with just started character in minor (~20-troop) battles.
... Another alternative is to make rally checks more frequent (20-30 seconds?), so that routed troops will not stand in the corner for a while, and instead be tempted to move back into the fray, but if their cohesion is still low, they will still be routed (rout checks are more frequent, 5 sec). I like that idea, I'll test it out.
May be worth trying. But remember that those poor bastards are panicked and don't have clear view of the situation. So I doubt if they would even consider anything else than to get the hell outa there :wink:
 
Chel said:
kaeldragor said:
Chel - I checked through the thread and while I love this idea, I had a question... Cohesion seems to be described differently in different posts.  Some describe it as a pure average of health percentage, but the first post doesn't.

10 people x 100% health = 100% (each person's health is worth 10% of the cohesion)
10 - 2 people (dead) = 80%
10 - 2 (dead) - 4 people @ 50% health (wounded) = 4 x 100% (40) + 4 x 50% (20) = 60% total average

... not 40%.  Am I missing something?

Edit 1: (Also, I meant to give my feedback that the bravery bonus should definitely be at .5 per kill.  After all, it isn't the only thing helping morale, so a few points can make all the difference, and any but a hands-off general (difficult to play in EGII) is going to kill more than his/her proportional share.)

Edit 2: Testing seems fine.  I would like it if there was a way to finish the battle with the enemy routed, without the penalties of a retreat... though I suppose if you routed any significant enemy, the normal penalties wouldn't be there anyway due to casualties inflicted...  How complicated would it be to allow a "normal" exit with enemy troops still on screen?

Yes, you're missing the two dead guys, they still count. so it would be
4 x 100% (40) + 4 x 50% (20) + 2 x 0% = 40% average.

Yes, I agree, bravery bonus of +1 cohesion per kill is too significant, +1/2 is better.

I was not aware that there are any penalties given when you TAB out of the battle (with no enemies nearby), what are they?

Morale penalty.  It decreases somewhat if you inflict casualties before leaving, I think.  It isn't huge, but it is there.  If you rout the enemy, you'd think you'd still get some morale even if you don't stick around for the loot and prisoners.


Also, the average is still 60%  For simplicity's sake, say each guy has 10 hit points.  So 1% per hit point in the group.  4 guys x 10 = 40 + 4 guys x 5 = 60 total.  divide by total you began with, 10 and you get 6/10 or 60%  The two guys don't matter except they determine what you divide it by.  To get 40% with 4 guys at full health and four at half health, you have to have an additional five guys dead added to the two already dead (7 out of 15 total).  I cheated and used excel to make sure.  :razz:

Mind you, in tests it seems to work pretty good regardless, and if the formula is just calculated by the program, it's fine - it's just a documentation thing; I just wasn't sure if I was missing something that also affected cohesion negatively.
 
Ah, you're right! 60% still :grin: Thanks!
anyways, the point is it does include dead guys, so you won't get something like
10 guys at 50% = 50% cohesion
5 guys at 100% and 5 dead guys = 100% cohesion.
 
Chel said:
Ah, you're right! 60% still :grin: Thanks!
anyways, the point is it does include dead guys, so you won't get something like
10 guys at 50% = 50% cohesion
5 guys at 100% and 5 dead guys = 100% cohesion.

Gotcha, I just wrote my text formulas in a confusing way.

Feedback: I agree that a rout shouldn't end the battle, and don't think the troops should disappear at the edge.  After all, what if my Immortals run?  I want a chance to rally frightened men without losing them.  And since I'm assuming there isn't a way to "knock out" anyone that has remained routed for several checks in a row (good way to simulate a full retreat, but no permanent loss if you break off the attack), my other suggestion would be to leave it as it is and see if there is a way around the morale penalty for retreating.  If so, maybe it can trigger at a certain point.  Mutual withdrawals happened all the time in real life engagements and men wouldn't be disheartened unless they truly felt they were in full retreat (one would hope).
 
I was testing something and saw as one of four mercenaries was running away from a group of heavy infantry after they killed three of his comrades. The heavy infantry could not catch him. So, this also gives the lightly-armored and quick-on-their-feet infantry and much needed bost, allowing them to run away faster and keeping them alive, and to chase down running heavy infantry!
Before, they would just run quicker to their death by heavy infantry :smile:
 
There does seem to be a delay before a rout, although large, may not be the 30 seconds i assumed it to be. I'll test it out again and get back to you on that one.

70 seconds for them to return to battle? I never experienced that purely because my battles don't last 70 seconds after the initial charge  :razz: Perhaps thats fair for an infantry battle.

The player going to their tight group of cowardice men and rallying them could be good, however I believe there would be only a certain distance from the enemy and his own troops a general would go in the thick of battle (In our small battles anyway), and routed or running men disappearing when they hit the edge of the map would emulate men running to far from the battle.
Rallying men shortly after they fled, or rout, would be fine, but wait to long and your chance for a rally would be gone, the men running to far away from battle to responsibly go and retreive them.
Dain's suggestion of two cohesion checks before they leave would probably be a good idea, as the battle map is a little small to realistically emulate it, but they should definitely leave the battle after some time. Your Suggestion of more frequent rally checks would be a good idea and work well with this delayed leave.

The men who do run I don't think should be removed from the army, just place them back there ready for the next battle. Or as prisoners, giving you the chance to rehire them (in the camp menu) or disband the cowards.

The bravery bonus, after i started winning, doesn't do much for me. however, at the beginning it did save my life a few times. I think, personally, its fine but i would wait for a few more opinions.

As for ending the battle with tab, I always thought it then resolved the battle with auto-calc, or atleast thats how i thought it worked and was always to afraid to use it  :razz: I'll test it out.



 
So, digging into the mechanics of this a little... I took on an army of the dead with a small group of horsemen.  Cheated to simulate myself inflicting heavy casualties on the enemy until they routed.  we swarmed the stragglers.  But then the MASSIVE "routed" force of high level Fallen (around 50 of them) were crowded into one edge of the map.  Amused myself by sending my now over-confident troops to chase them down and they were quickly slaughtered.

Didn't take long for the army of the dead to realize I was now alone and surge back to attacking me... all of which narrates rather well, but I was wondering how the AI decided to rally?  Was it because my army's cohesion went below the AI's for their next rally check?  Or is it just a straight chance to rally if they have good health?

In other words, if the rally check doesn't compare to my own army's cohesion and happens anyway, the best thing (if you don't want to retreat) is to reform positions and wait for the next charge, since it will happen eventually anyway for the troops with good health.  If it is waiting for more of an advantage, you might NEED to attack them somehow to get them out of the corner.


I had another horrible thought: is it difficult to have certain units IMMUNE to routing?  Such as the undead?
 
Straight chance to rally, they got lucky with a well-timed rally check. I've fixed it up so they shouldn't clump together, and should rally faster when the battle suddenly swings the other way.

I checked the code, when you TAB out, its similar to autocalc, but not quite.
More importantly, there doesn't seem to be a way to remove troops from the map at all. So,


I've made some changes for 1.1 (uploaded):

-reduced bravery bonus to 0.5 per kill. (it doesn't make much of a difference whether its +1 or +0.5 in smaller battles, but for large ones, +1 is too much)
-rout checks are every 4 instead of 5 seconds.
-rally checks are every 8 instead of 70 seconds, chance to rally 10% lower. this should keep the units from clumping in a corner, and make them rejoin the fight if the battle swings in their favor (reinforcements arrive?).
-Battle Cry increases health of troops by (10+leadership)%, thus increasing cohesion, but can be used only once.
-removed party morale penalty for leaving battle with TAB.


Give it a test run? :grin:



The first post is updated with more details.


no, not too hard to make undead immune, I imagine.
 
Chel said:
no, not too hard to make undead immune, I imagine.

I don't think they should have morale issues, though that might make the late game REALLY hard for anyone used to routing.  Regardless, it just fits that they wouldn't, though I guess that's more module-specific than is your current aim.
 
Just interested, how clean is the script?

Are the values such as cohesion check time delays and battle cry bonus's distinct and easily changeable or is there a bit of messing around to be had?
 
I've noticed that every time I try to use the "Battle Cry" (Y key), I seem to lose some experience points, and the amount lost gets higher every time. Is this intended? And if my battle cry works, will I be informed?

(This is with the first version, btw. Will I have to create another new game for the effects of the new version of the morale to take effect, or was that just for the sounds?)
 
Taal said:
Just interested, how clean is the script?

Are the values such as cohesion check time delays and battle cry bonus's distinct and easily changeable or is there a bit of messing around to be had?

pretty clean, if you know where to look things like that are changed with a single value. I'd like to get it to a state where the timing and effects of everything are tuned well, and if anyone else wants to use it in their mod, they don't have to worry about balancing the numbers.

SteppeBandit said:
I've noticed that every time I try to use the "Battle Cry" (Y key), I seem to lose some experience points, and the amount lost gets higher every time. Is this intended? And if my battle cry works, will I be informed?

(This is with the first version, btw. Will I have to create another new game for the effects of the new version of the morale to take effect, or was that just for the sounds?)

experience cost is intentional, it increases as your level increases, same as other 'combat abilities' in EGII.
Battle Cry works every time, but not all troops make the decision to rally.

Morale changes do not need a new game, but I've added another sound in 1.1, and if you load a previous save game you'll probably get some problems with sounds. Best to start new game.
 
if anyone else wants to use it in their mod

If/when the source is released I'll certainly be doing that :wink:. I haven't tried it out yet so I was wondering if the fights were tougher? I'd imagine it's tougher when you face superior foes and easier when facing inferior foes.
 
I'm not sure if overall it makes battles harder or easier.. but more interesting and tactical for me.

A video showcasing the system (30MB):
https://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?cid=6&id=741
Youtube version (lower quality, less clear what is happening):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfFr6wC8HTY
 
The idea itself is brilliant!

But I think you missing something. Let say we have party of 20 where 10 are templars and 10 are recruits. And we have 2 scenarios.

Scenario #1
Templars charged into an enemy while recruits left behind. Templars got slaughtered. Logically recruits should turn around instantly and run as fast as they can.
Cohesion is 50%.

Scenario #2
Templars charged but got drawn away by some horsemen. Recruits charged into main enemy force and got slaughtered. Should templars be worried about killed recruits? Should top tier fighters who survived countless battles be worried about someone got killed in their first battle?
But cohesion is still 50%.

In both scenarios chance to rout is exactly same for every unit in the party. Dont you think there is something wrong? I think the cohesion pool should be affected not only by unit's health but also by unit's level. The higher unit's level the more he add into party's cohesion. Loss of higher tier unit will hurt cohesion more. This way loss of templar will be more significant to party's morale then loss of recruit.
 
Tamerlan said:
The idea itself is brilliant!

But I think you missing something. Let say we have party of 20 where 10 are templars and 10 are recruits. And we have 2 scenarios.

Scenario #1
Templars charged into an enemy while recruits left behind. Templars got slaughtered. Logically recruits should turn around instantly and run as fast as they can.
Cohesion is 50%.

Scenario #2
Templars charged but got drawn away by some horsemen. Recruits charged into main enemy force and got slaughtered. Should templars be worried about killed recruits? Should top tier fighters who survived countless battles be worried about someone got killed in their first battle?
But cohesion is still 50%.

In both scenarios chance to rout is exactly same for every unit in the party. Dont you think there is something wrong? I think the cohesion pool should be affected not only by unit's health but also by unit's level. The higher unit's level the more he add into party's cohesion. Loss of higher tier unit will hurt cohesion more. This way loss of templar will be more significant to party's morale then loss of recruit.
Templer's have way more health them Recruits and Cohesion is based on health, therefore Templers play a much bigger role in cohesion when they die. So really let's say the recruits have 50 hp and the templer's have 150hp... 

total health of 10 Templers and 10 Recruits would equal 2000hp...

the 10 recruits die: 1500hp left = 75% Cohesion
the 10 templers die: 500hp left = 25% Cohesion

Hope this answers your questions  :grin:
 
Tamerlan said:
But cohesion based on % of unit's health, not on actual health itself. Isn't it?

right, on health %.

but routing depends not on cohesion of the army, but on the difference in cohesion between the two sides. So it depends on how much damage the opposing side took in killing the 10 templars or 10 recruits.

however you have a point.

it means you are better of attacking with the stronger troops, and sending in the recruits to get slaughtered is going to affect the morale of even the highest level troops..

maybe a troop's level should affect its morale. but it makes much more sense on chance of fleeing calculation, not on cohesion, so that high level troops are much likely to keep fighting even at low cohesion.

I'll see what I can do
 
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