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pentagathus
Baron
Seconded. Try to hold in the awsomeness chel so we don't all get struck to death by it.Ewout 说:Chel 说:If I get no more bugs in scripts and can finish it all up in an hour, I'll release the first test version today. I know, I rock too hard
Can't wait to test it out dude!
Dain Ironfoot
Count
Chel 说:
Excelent. And I suppose if you're content with simply routing them, you could retreat from the battle and count it as a win.
Haail
Banned
Holy crap, this is awesome. I think the cohesion checks should be made much more often, like every five seconds, with 1/6th of the chance to run per check, and make units that are already routing count as 0% towards the cohesion rating. Units will run at more natural times.
Maybe even make a routing unit create negative cohesion. A running comrade doesn't only mean you've got one less person watching your back, but that he thinks there's a good reason to run, so maybe you should too.
With the 30 second interval: Say a line of archers fire a volley of arrows and wound/kill half of an army of infantry, but five seconds after the 30 second cohesion check. Realistically, the infantry army shouldn't take 25 more seconds to **** their pants and run.
With a check every five seconds some of the wounded ones might back away right after the casualties. The ones who didn't immediately decide to run would take a few seconds to notice the first few running, and will have a greater chance to run themselves, creating the realistic look of a group rout you're trying to create with the high chance, long interval check. If not enough of them run from the volley and nobody decreases the cohesion further, there won't be a domino effect and the infantry might make archers, who are unfit for melee, and massacre them, increasing morale and everyone stops wondering if they should run because of the volley.
I also think it's important for some units to have different morale. Give every unit of some factions a higher or lower chance to run based on the culture of the faction, and couple that with recruiting masses from that faction more or less easily.
Having the regular factors like disposition the same for both a village of Vaegers and a village of Nords, you only recruit about 8 Nords to 10 Vaegers, but all Nord units are fearless. At second to the highest tier of Vaeger units they start to match the bravery of the Nords, and at the highest tier, Vaeger knights are just as sturdy as Nords. Kergit units would recruit about 12 units to 8 Nords or 10 Vaegers, but barely increase in morale stability at higher tiers.
This is just an example of how more strategy could be added with this system. Someone who knows the factions better might think different factions should be the brave ones and which should be recruited in mass.
No, I have no idea how you would do this without messing up health.
Maybe even make a routing unit create negative cohesion. A running comrade doesn't only mean you've got one less person watching your back, but that he thinks there's a good reason to run, so maybe you should too.
With the 30 second interval: Say a line of archers fire a volley of arrows and wound/kill half of an army of infantry, but five seconds after the 30 second cohesion check. Realistically, the infantry army shouldn't take 25 more seconds to **** their pants and run.
With a check every five seconds some of the wounded ones might back away right after the casualties. The ones who didn't immediately decide to run would take a few seconds to notice the first few running, and will have a greater chance to run themselves, creating the realistic look of a group rout you're trying to create with the high chance, long interval check. If not enough of them run from the volley and nobody decreases the cohesion further, there won't be a domino effect and the infantry might make archers, who are unfit for melee, and massacre them, increasing morale and everyone stops wondering if they should run because of the volley.
I also think it's important for some units to have different morale. Give every unit of some factions a higher or lower chance to run based on the culture of the faction, and couple that with recruiting masses from that faction more or less easily.
Having the regular factors like disposition the same for both a village of Vaegers and a village of Nords, you only recruit about 8 Nords to 10 Vaegers, but all Nord units are fearless. At second to the highest tier of Vaeger units they start to match the bravery of the Nords, and at the highest tier, Vaeger knights are just as sturdy as Nords. Kergit units would recruit about 12 units to 8 Nords or 10 Vaegers, but barely increase in morale stability at higher tiers.
This is just an example of how more strategy could be added with this system. Someone who knows the factions better might think different factions should be the brave ones and which should be recruited in mass.
No, I have no idea how you would do this without messing up health.
TakiJap
Sergeant
This is absolutely beautiful, definitely the best mod/addition ever. Historical settings and new units are fun for a while, but this truly changes the whole experience. I've always wanted there to be morale, but never dared to hope for it.
There's just couple of things in your system that are unclear to me. Firstly, does heavy losses encourage soldiers to flee even if they're fully healthy, or if no-one hasn't even wounded yet but the enemy is more skilled and larger in numbers? I could picture some recruits getting cold feet from just seeing the huge enemy and deciding to run while they still can.
Anyways great job with the mod. No more men bored of life and feeling suicidal
There's just couple of things in your system that are unclear to me. Firstly, does heavy losses encourage soldiers to flee even if they're fully healthy, or if no-one hasn't even wounded yet but the enemy is more skilled and larger in numbers? I could picture some recruits getting cold feet from just seeing the huge enemy and deciding to run while they still can.
Anyways great job with the mod. No more men bored of life and feeling suicidal
Sgt Gul
Regular
maybe an addition perhaps? the generals and you as the lord can rally some of the troops back into formation when they are routing, a morale boost? that can be used once in a battle? or maybe add it that it becomes available if you reach certain level. And i was thinking about when the enemy lord is killed/knocked out, the enemy looses morale? that would be a great addition, similiair like in M:TW
Chel
Master Knight
Haail 说:
Right, I've revised the system with similar thoughts. I will write it out in detail.
TakiJap 说:
Yes, heavy losses will cause the rest to rout, provided the enemy did not sustain such heavy losses.
Giving each unit his own morale-toughness might be complicating it a bit too much. A huge enemy army will cause the recruits to rout very quickly by inflicting large cohesion damage without suffering much itself.
peerLAN
Sergeant
I hope you implemented a way they can run off the map when they reach the border of the map. Also it would be a good idea to give a pretty strong penalty for the side that abandoned the battle because of low moral. They should lose a bundle of men (from those that run away) due to desertion.
I'm not really into the health bar/orb. It doesn't feel natural. But what I would really like would be that injured units (including you and horses) walk slower and have a different animation that they are in more pain when they walk.
I'm not really into the health bar/orb. It doesn't feel natural. But what I would really like would be that injured units (including you and horses) walk slower and have a different animation that they are in more pain when they walk.
Chel
Master Knight
peerLAN 说:
no, they don't run off the map right now. Like I said, for first release there's a dynamic system all taking place on the field. After I collect feedback on what needs to be adjusted or added, I might also get them to leave the map.
the health bar doesn't stay there, and it won't appear at all if you don' want it.
slower walking for heavily wounded units - I think I can add that later.
This sounds pretty interesting. Hopefully nothing weird happens from it like a bunch of top tier troops fleeing like little girls. 
The icon is slightly odd looking for my tastes, I'd prefer something with less transparency and simple looking, but it doesn't matter I suppose.
Promising work at any rate!
The icon is slightly odd looking for my tastes, I'd prefer something with less transparency and simple looking, but it doesn't matter I suppose.
Promising work at any rate!
Night Raider
Sergeant
Just a few thoughts I had from reading through the thread: How difficult would it be to add start up options that have an effect on how quick troops retreat etc.? For example, one civ fights to the death while another flees quickly etc. I realize this might be hard to balance, but it would seemingly add a bit more of a realistic feel to different civz???
SteppeBandit
Recruit
This sounds amazing, and I can't wait to snatch it up.
You may have seen me in the thread I started asking for a Monty Python and the Holy Grail mod, and if that ever manages to get off the ground, I would definitely want to incorporate this system into it.
Run away!!!!
You may have seen me in the thread I started asking for a Monty Python and the Holy Grail mod, and if that ever manages to get off the ground, I would definitely want to incorporate this system into it.
Run away!!!!
Ben Hussey
Sergeant Knight
Chel - will this work with the formations mods? It would be great to see mens nerve break and run out of the shield wall/firing line.
So from what I've read - the following factors affect likelihood to flee - characters leadership, no. friendly's killed, wounds/damage sustained... does party morale affect likelihood at all?
Another idea, may or may not be possible, if you left your troops fighting and galloped back to where your broken men have gone, perhaps a dialogue or command with a chance of rallying them if you're within hailing distance? (an execution for those curs who fail to recall!).
So from what I've read - the following factors affect likelihood to flee - characters leadership, no. friendly's killed, wounds/damage sustained... does party morale affect likelihood at all?
Another idea, may or may not be possible, if you left your troops fighting and galloped back to where your broken men have gone, perhaps a dialogue or command with a chance of rallying them if you're within hailing distance? (an execution for those curs who fail to recall!).
Dain Ironfoot
Count
*coughs*
ATM Chel said party morale isn't taken into account. He plans to add a battlecry ability.
ATM Chel said party morale isn't taken into account. He plans to add a battlecry ability.
Chel
Master Knight
I think it should work with formations, yes, although there would need to be a condition routed/not routed on every troop, so that you would not be able to put routed troops back in formation. I might add it later, as well as factors from party morale. First release is to tune the basic system and see what other factors would benefit it.
It would be fun to have different factions have different bonuses/penalties to cohesion, yeah. It would have to be done by looking at the parties involved I think, like the world-map morale, so far everything I've done is just at the level of the current battle.
Battle Morale, detailed explanation
Cohesion
Both sides in battle has a cohesion rating, the average health of the army. For example ten fresh troops have 100% cohesion. If two are killed, the cohesion rating drops to 80%. If four of the remaining eight are wounded to 50% health, the cohesion rating drops to 40%. The cohesion rating is continuously being tracked, and in general lower rating will cause the troops to rout and flee. A group of peasants has the same cohesion as a group of knights to start with, but because knights have more hitpoints and better armor, the peasants will lose cohesion much faster, and therefore run from the fight much sooner.
Bravery Bonus
If the player character is actively participating in battle and killing many enemies, his troops are inspired by his bravery and are less likely to abandon him. The cohesion rating of the player's troops receives a bonus equal to the number of enemies killed by the player in the ongoing battle.
Morale Check
Both sides have morale checks every 10 seconds. If the cohesion is below 80%, a check is made to see if the morale wavers. The chance of that happening is 5% at 80% cohesion up to 85% at 0% cohesion. So that as the battle goes on and cohesion of both sides drops due to wounds and casualties, morale of troops starts to waver more and more, as they become reluctant to continue the bloodbath.
Fleeing Troops
If the morale wavers, each troop decides whether to flee or not. The decision depends on their health. Those with full health will not flee (0% chance), and heavily wounded are more likely to flee (at 1% life the chance to flee is 33%). Player's Leadership score is a slight bonus. Overall this effect is small, only few wounded troops are likely to flee the battle every so often. The exact formula is for the chance of fleeing is
1/3 * (100 - ([troop's health] + [player's leadership]))
Routing
If the cohesion of one side becomes greater than the cohesion of another by 40 or more, the losing side is routed. A check for this is made every 5 seconds. This effect allows powerful blows to one of the sides, such as knight charges or archer volleys to rout the enemy. Or in case of an uneven matchup, when one side is easily winning the battle, the losing side will be rounted before they are all killed.
Once one of the sides is routed, every troop makes the decision to run or keep fighting. It is very similar to the fleeing decision, but with much greater chances of routing, even for troops with full health. Player's Leadership value is a significant bonus in this case.
The exact formula is for the chance of routing is
100 - (1/3*[troop's health] + [player's leadership])
Battle Cry
The player can attempt to rally his routed troops with a Battle Cry (press Y) every 60 seconds. Every troop makes a decision whether to rejoin the fight at the player's call or not, depending on his health. Those with full health will always rejoin the battle while heavily wounded troops are much less likely to do so. The player's Leadership level is a bonus in this case. The AI controlled troops will also rally periodically in battle.
The exact formula for chance to rally is
[troop's health] + [player's leadership]
Reinforcements
When reinforcements arrive in battle, they raise the cohesion of their side by virtue of new fresh troops being introduced, and are therefore important to keep an army from routing. The player can call for reinforcements (press U) in battle every 100 seconds, if there are fresh troops avalible in his party they will arrive shortly. However the enemy will also be reinforced at that time. In addition, I've made the automatic reinforcements arrive slightly sooner, when the remaining number of troops is not quite as low. And I allowed for one extra wave of reinforcements before the battle has to start anew.
Troop Health
Knowing troop health and cohesion can be important to be more aware of the situation on the battlefield, or to see if that valuable troop of yours is going to need your help if he is to come out of the melee alive. The player can display the health status of his troops, his bravery bonus to cohesion, and the cohesion of both sides at any time (press T). Green markers are shown above troops with 70%-100% health, yellow markers for 30%-69% health, and red markers are shown for heavily wounded troops and bodies of those fallen in battle.
It would be fun to have different factions have different bonuses/penalties to cohesion, yeah. It would have to be done by looking at the parties involved I think, like the world-map morale, so far everything I've done is just at the level of the current battle.
Battle Morale, detailed explanation
Cohesion
Both sides in battle has a cohesion rating, the average health of the army. For example ten fresh troops have 100% cohesion. If two are killed, the cohesion rating drops to 80%. If four of the remaining eight are wounded to 50% health, the cohesion rating drops to 40%. The cohesion rating is continuously being tracked, and in general lower rating will cause the troops to rout and flee. A group of peasants has the same cohesion as a group of knights to start with, but because knights have more hitpoints and better armor, the peasants will lose cohesion much faster, and therefore run from the fight much sooner.
Bravery Bonus
If the player character is actively participating in battle and killing many enemies, his troops are inspired by his bravery and are less likely to abandon him. The cohesion rating of the player's troops receives a bonus equal to the number of enemies killed by the player in the ongoing battle.
Morale Check
Both sides have morale checks every 10 seconds. If the cohesion is below 80%, a check is made to see if the morale wavers. The chance of that happening is 5% at 80% cohesion up to 85% at 0% cohesion. So that as the battle goes on and cohesion of both sides drops due to wounds and casualties, morale of troops starts to waver more and more, as they become reluctant to continue the bloodbath.
Fleeing Troops
If the morale wavers, each troop decides whether to flee or not. The decision depends on their health. Those with full health will not flee (0% chance), and heavily wounded are more likely to flee (at 1% life the chance to flee is 33%). Player's Leadership score is a slight bonus. Overall this effect is small, only few wounded troops are likely to flee the battle every so often. The exact formula is for the chance of fleeing is
1/3 * (100 - ([troop's health] + [player's leadership]))
Routing
If the cohesion of one side becomes greater than the cohesion of another by 40 or more, the losing side is routed. A check for this is made every 5 seconds. This effect allows powerful blows to one of the sides, such as knight charges or archer volleys to rout the enemy. Or in case of an uneven matchup, when one side is easily winning the battle, the losing side will be rounted before they are all killed.
Once one of the sides is routed, every troop makes the decision to run or keep fighting. It is very similar to the fleeing decision, but with much greater chances of routing, even for troops with full health. Player's Leadership value is a significant bonus in this case.
The exact formula is for the chance of routing is
100 - (1/3*[troop's health] + [player's leadership])
Battle Cry
The player can attempt to rally his routed troops with a Battle Cry (press Y) every 60 seconds. Every troop makes a decision whether to rejoin the fight at the player's call or not, depending on his health. Those with full health will always rejoin the battle while heavily wounded troops are much less likely to do so. The player's Leadership level is a bonus in this case. The AI controlled troops will also rally periodically in battle.
The exact formula for chance to rally is
[troop's health] + [player's leadership]
Reinforcements
When reinforcements arrive in battle, they raise the cohesion of their side by virtue of new fresh troops being introduced, and are therefore important to keep an army from routing. The player can call for reinforcements (press U) in battle every 100 seconds, if there are fresh troops avalible in his party they will arrive shortly. However the enemy will also be reinforced at that time. In addition, I've made the automatic reinforcements arrive slightly sooner, when the remaining number of troops is not quite as low. And I allowed for one extra wave of reinforcements before the battle has to start anew.
Troop Health
Knowing troop health and cohesion can be important to be more aware of the situation on the battlefield, or to see if that valuable troop of yours is going to need your help if he is to come out of the melee alive. The player can display the health status of his troops, his bravery bonus to cohesion, and the cohesion of both sides at any time (press T). Green markers are shown above troops with 70%-100% health, yellow markers for 30%-69% health, and red markers are shown for heavily wounded troops and bodies of those fallen in battle.
