Well, we allegedly can't figure out anything more complicated than standardized bichrome faction banners, so it's safe to say this assumption has already been made to some degree.
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Bannerlord was a grift
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It's not, it's an OKAY game, but imagine what we could've had if TW had some proper project managers and kept their original vision of the game.
I mean yeah, the modding letter kinda did that. And they still followed through with it, in 1.6.0 and in 1.6.1. TW is working on modding support, and it doesn't seem to have been a one-off thing.
Clever.
My argument isn't it just it's EA = no modding, it is there really won't be any community lead DLCs at this point because the game is still in EA and they aren't focusing on that yet and there is no real modding support until the custom servers come out. If TW didn't do anything with modding support in 1.6.0, I'd agree with you entirely on that there was a good reason to be angry, however, TW does seem to continue support for modding and all that seems to be left is documentation, at least from what I've heard.
And I will say that I have been wrong about modding in the past. In the modding letter post, I stated that these modding changes would take a while and TW should focus on other things. I was completely wrong.
I will say that I think that they should really look into hiring modders. Firstly, what they do does help the game greatly, and I don't play without mods all too often. Secondly, they have done stuff that TW has said they don't wish to implement, like with what Bloc has made. After release, I don't see any reason why there shouldn't or couldn't be community DLCs. It has worked well in other games, such as Arma 3, just as long as the company has a little oversight in terms of quality control. The reason for that is one community DLC for that game was a little bit undercooked, so just making sure that the community gets what they pay for is important.
I also can't really disagree on the MP front. Until custom servers are released, the MP is dead. However, I disagree with the latter sentiment. If they release custom servers at this point with the release of the game, there can still be a thriving community. There will most likely be a boost of players when the game leaves EA, and they would most likely go to try out the MP as well. And if they release custom servers, there could be mods that follow. However, they should really have an option to get rid of the class system, as I do think that's just gonna hold the MP back. Games like Mordhau are successful without a class system, and I've always thought of BL being more similar to that than Chivalry.
Yeah, I really don't get the point of this argument. Every game's marketing always goes "Oh it's a 5/5, literally the game of the year". The BL steam page doesn't push these reviews, so I don't get the point in arguing over it.
Our point is that there isn't any intrinsic reason for why that ought to be. Don't misconstrue me by saying that I am just whining Bannerlord isn't out of EA yet. My point is that the game in its current state can be modding should the devs give us the proper tools. Modders are waiting. They can do it in EA, if they are unlocked with the ability to do so. There isn't really any difference between what we have now and what would be the released game aside from extra features and the title of "EA". Despite the game being terrible, it is in a playable (not playable in terms of the game being a complete, fun game that can be enjoyed as it is not, but in terms of the game runs and the core, bare-bones features are functional) state. If they removed the "EA" moniker this very second, would you be okay with them modding? I feel like you are just hiding behind the EA title as an excuse for the lack of progress.
They did absolutely nothing in terms of multiplayer mods. As I understand it, singleplayer mods are welcome to be modded after the modding tools were released. However, literally nothing can be done until private servers are released. This is evidenced by the Kingdoms of Arda, Kingdoms, etc. mods having zero progress done since the 1.6.0 update, as they are not able to do so. So, at least in terms of multiplayer mods, 1.6.0 did literally nothing for modding. As long as you recognize that, we don't have a quarrel here.
I agree completely with this. Removal of EA + private servers = success. However, TW seems to be digging their head into the sand. If the class system and their multiplayer system been received better, I wholeheartedly believe that they would have released the private servers by now. However, because TW worked very hard (They spent a lot of time and effort on the class system) to implement this system, they want to keep forcing people to play it. They know the second they release them, nobody will go back to their servers/their class system mode, and they can't allow that. It is kind of spiteful tbh, they are punishing us for our opinions. This has been proven by various threads, I can't exactly remember where, but when the beta came out, everyone complained about the class system and the CMs just said "we are not removing this, this is the future, we think this system is superior". Essentially telling us that our opinion doesn't matter. Wow, TW. What a shocker! Ultimately, I don't know exactly when TW will cut their losses with the class system, but it seems like they are just getting more and more angry with all the clamor for public servers and removal of the class system, that I don't know if they ever will. Which is unfortunate, but oh well. What can you do?
My point is that it is gonna be a while, so don't expect them immediately. At least for Arma 3, it took years for the community-made DLCs to come out, and the same will probably be for TW. My point is don't think that it isn't going to happen at this point when the game isn't even released. They'll come post-release if they come. It goes back to the core of my points, that the community just has to be a bit more patient.
Not gonna go down this road.
Yeah, and I can't disagree with that. Would I prefer for custom servers to be out now? Yeah, of course, I would. However, TW isn't going to release them at this point, and there isn't much that can be done to stop that. The power is entirely in the hands of TW, so I'm keener to look for any wins elsewhere. And in terms of modding support, the modding letter was a massive success, and I'm quite happy that it worked.
I don't really think that they're getting angry, because they still have a very successful game. However, I do think just holding onto the class system will lead to bad things for the game and community. If modders have no way of changing, especially when the MP community very clearly wants a different system, then I think there will be much-warranted backlash.
by the time it was announced in 2012 and now, I have went through school, college and now university -I would like to play the completed product with all its merit in a timely manner.
patience is a virtue yes, but only when there is an end to the means. until bannerlord get's off its high horse and works with professional motives, it is foolishness to wait for the never happening.
Ah yes, the community just has to be a bit more patient. I'll wait a month, and then if nothing, what then?
Seriously speaking, not even sure why this thread keeps going. Does TW and or the moderators keep this as the megathread for all of Roy and friend's borderline rants, opinions and complaints?
Seriously speaking, not even sure why this thread keeps going. Does TW and or the moderators keep this as the megathread for all of Roy and friend's borderline rants, opinions and complaints?
The majority of which had no idea what it was supposed to be, and that it was supposed to be that about 5 years ago.
The missing and incomplete features in this game are immense over a decade in. The inner city gang system is non existent. Shields are bare-bone near indestructible magnet devices with no difference in armor (hidden stat) and speed between the largest to the smallest, the inverse of which were all extraordinarily basic Warband features. All item weight has no bearing one item to the next, extraordinarily basic Warband feature. The value of items is heavily out of balance with the rest of the game.
The governor system barely works. A lot of perks have one of their traits only work for governors, of which they player cannot even be a governor, and many companions will also never be as they are more useful as almost anything else, which in and of themselves, are not that useful either, especially considering how much they cost, if money was even a problem in the game because the economy is so out of whack.
The dynasty and clan system barely functions, they added an education system but the AI does not get one and so their kids are still skilless morons. Minor factions cannot take part in the dynasty system and so they subsequently die out in what it supposed to be the late game, which is a soulless husk.
You cannot duel lords, vanilla warband feature. Every village/city/castle scene was supposed to be unique, they are maybe half way there if that. Having too many troops of another culture could cause morale problems, morale was lost when fighting their own countrymen, vanilla Warband feature. Arrows in flight are still flying wooden staves. You still cannot give AI specific commands, vanilla Warband feature. No claimants to enthrone, vanilla Warband feature, no civil wars at all. Keep battles are for the offender only after 7 months of working on them (vanilla Warband feature). No books to read, vanilla warband feature.
The leveling and experience system is heavily unpolished, with most of it giving very little benefit but a handful of perks at the end of skill lines that are immensely powerful compared to everything else which barely register, all of which requires a lot of grinding just to get something that feels like a difference. Skill to skill leveling is either extremely simple (move on the campaign map), extremely tedious/grindy (trading) or simply rare making it a pain to level (engineering). Companions cannot interact with and level many skills in the same way the player can, limiting their usefulness as companions. The policy and lord voting system is still a hive mind, intended to link into the largely non functioning trait system.
Sieges both in-scene and on the campaign map are broken on many levels. Most siege equipment is either completely pointless or an active detriment. Using basic ladders is the best tactic, trying to starve an enemy is a waste of time every time, trying to wage a siege equipment war on the defenders with ranged equipment is also a waste of time every time. Siege battles feature little to no player involvement tactically, it is all on rails. Sieges are quite easy to win, barely a speed-bump.
And the list goes on and on, this is just what came to mind while I was jotting this down while I am trying to mod out one of the above problems but the game is fighting back rather hard:
I am trying to mod a work around to item values in the game being too high, so initially I tried using Kaos Tweaks to make everything 75% cheaper, easiest apparent solution... The only problem is, it does not actually reduce income from battlefield loot, because it makes more expensive things drop with great modifiers increasing the price by x9 in some cases. And it also made less expensive things drop more... so really, it just made it worse.
So then I went digging around in the files and I found item_modifiers, so I went in there and I removed those silly x9, x7 price value modifiers and made the bad ones really bad. This also did not work as it also made the bad item modifiers drop much less and the better ones drop more just like the change Kaos Tweak change. So I went into item_modifier_groups and changed the probability for ones that reduce item costs to be the most common by an insane amount... and well apparently that is more of a 'suggestion' as it did not prevent in any meaningful way the increase in items spawning as the prices went down. Nor did it stop the more expensive modifiers from dropping in great numbers, despite it being literally a 1 vs 39000 drop rate supposedly. I even removed the good modifiers and the bad modifiers too, hoping that it can't spawn only the good ones if there are no good ones... so what did it do? It then spawned only ones with no modifiers at all, completely sidestepping all my changes.
So even at this point editing each individual item, not just of the native game, but each mod that adds new items that I use, which I have been trying to avoid with most of the above... would itself ultimately be unsuccesful with how the game handles this. To fix this I would have to graduate to big boy modding .dll files and I lack the knowledge set to do that at the moment. Even then who knows what the game would decide to do to thwart any attempt at change. It is alive and it hates us.
So then I went digging around in the files and I found item_modifiers, so I went in there and I removed those silly x9, x7 price value modifiers and made the bad ones really bad. This also did not work as it also made the bad item modifiers drop much less and the better ones drop more just like the change Kaos Tweak change. So I went into item_modifier_groups and changed the probability for ones that reduce item costs to be the most common by an insane amount... and well apparently that is more of a 'suggestion' as it did not prevent in any meaningful way the increase in items spawning as the prices went down. Nor did it stop the more expensive modifiers from dropping in great numbers, despite it being literally a 1 vs 39000 drop rate supposedly. I even removed the good modifiers and the bad modifiers too, hoping that it can't spawn only the good ones if there are no good ones... so what did it do? It then spawned only ones with no modifiers at all, completely sidestepping all my changes.
So even at this point editing each individual item, not just of the native game, but each mod that adds new items that I use, which I have been trying to avoid with most of the above... would itself ultimately be unsuccesful with how the game handles this. To fix this I would have to graduate to big boy modding .dll files and I lack the knowledge set to do that at the moment. Even then who knows what the game would decide to do to thwart any attempt at change. It is alive and it hates us.
A&W once tried competing with McDonald's quarter pounder with a third pounder for the same price but it failed miserably because people thought the quarter pounder had more meat.
And it only took 11 years to
He is talking about how Bannerlord despite significantly more development and resources to develop is in many objective ways less than A: what was promised, B: what was promised to be out in some form five years ago (which still would have made it 1 to 2 years later than it should have been) and C: it's predecessor.
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LastofTheRomans
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Bannerlord is just Cyberpunk 2077, took just as long to make, but with potato faced npcs and an early access label to excuse a lack of progress or pace. Honestly, EA is a gift to all the lazy or grifting game developers.
“I don´t think that many of those players even know what is really going on in the game. They just enjoy those huge battles. And if they have enough of it they move on to the next game.”
Not a quote taken out of context. I get hyperbolic speech but this isn’t doing your argument any good.
There are players who played Warband who now play Bannerlord and like it. I’m going to make a bold claim and say that the majority of players who played Warband like Bannerlord. Now, dont hold a poll on these forums, because we are a cancerous bunch, but hold a poll among all the players on steam. A poll between negative and positive, for example.
I am however not accounting for Multiplayer. Because it is very obvious that Bannerlords Multiplayer is abandoned as opposed to Warbands.
I know this is a controversial opinion to have here and I am absolutely not whiteknighting, I’ve played Warband and I was disappointed with Bannerlord because it did not live up to my expectations. But a lot of regular players enjoy the game. That doesn’t make them mindless drones who just like mindless battles without understanding anything of the game.
I agree, there isn't nearly enough depth to the game for even casuals to not understand what's going on other than big battles.
I also agree, for new players who didn't know of bannerlord's existence until its official open release on steam, so thus they had no knowledge of the prior marketing on the game (where there was a lot of) which incentivized many players to buy the game with the hopes of talewords including what they bargained for; so when taleworlds put an extortionate price tag on the game, the mostly core players expected a deep and complex game full of content at the end of its development.
We now know this hasn't been the case, and wont be with the evident denial of including complexity but also stripping of what it had away.for something more streamlined (simple and easy, it isn't a bad thing for a game to be that- its just goes against what they advertised)
a lot of regular players and casuals also for this case wouldn't know why there is a sour taste in the mouths of those who followed the development since its start (the core players). this doesn't make them mindless- it just means when they bought the game, they didn't really know what they was expecting, and with the way bannerlord steam page describes the game as pretty much sums up what is included (vaguely) and hence are quite satisfied with the game.
this is assuming that you also followed bannerlord development since its dawn like the rest of us did it, then yes we're all disappointed with bannerlord because when we bought the game, we knew what to expect from the game with the way they sold their idea to us. That being said the idea was really bigger than the game itself actually was - and for that we're displeased it didnt reach our expectations (the expectations they set for us) and probably their own.
While Cyberpunk 2077, train-wreck that it was, was announced in 2012 CDPR did not start full development on it until after Hearts of Stone/Blood and Wine was completed for the Witcher 3.
EG article of note on some more specifics related to this:
Those plans obviously include Cyberpunk 2077, CD Projekt Red's next big game, which was announced in May 2012. I had a look up upstairs at Cyberpunk development when I visited in 2013, but I wasn't allowed this time. There were around 50 people on the team back then so I imagine pre-production and planning are been done, but beyond that I don't know. All work done on the RedEngine for The Witcher will be mutually beneficial, and the experience the studio gained likewise.
"We shouldn't talk about it now," says Iwiński. "We are getting a lot of questions and right now we are in The Witcher 3 mode as you can probably see all around. It will be our next big one and we will be talking about it when we're ready. I can only say that this year's definitely about The Witcher. In all honesty we've already teased Cyberpunk, we've shown the trailer, the CGI. We've talked about the setting and about the key features. And right now when we talk we have to have something to say and show that's really meaningful. I wouldn't like to go 'hey another CGI!' A significant part [of the studio] will go onto Cyberpunk and then maybe you know we are doing something else as well," he grins, "which I cannot talk about."
"We shouldn't talk about it now," says Iwiński. "We are getting a lot of questions and right now we are in The Witcher 3 mode as you can probably see all around. It will be our next big one and we will be talking about it when we're ready. I can only say that this year's definitely about The Witcher. In all honesty we've already teased Cyberpunk, we've shown the trailer, the CGI. We've talked about the setting and about the key features. And right now when we talk we have to have something to say and show that's really meaningful. I wouldn't like to go 'hey another CGI!' A significant part [of the studio] will go onto Cyberpunk and then maybe you know we are doing something else as well," he grins, "which I cannot talk about."
What is funny though is that CD Projekt Red in 2010 was similar in size compared to TaleWorlds, but 11 years later they are the 3rd largest game studio in Europe and around 8 times larger than TaleWorlds. They are a good comparison as they are another company that started small in a technologically challenged country:
Their first Witcher title was made on the Aurora engine they leased from Electronic Arts. They ditched it for their next title for their own in house engine, the Red Engine, and finished the Witcher 2 in 4 years despite actually making the engine from scratch because they were not legally allowed to just upgrade the Aurora engine and slap a new name on it. More ambitious with their next title, they had to massively overhaul their own engine to have any shot at making their first triple A title, but they did so for the Witcher 3 in 4 years.
CDPR's second triple A title, Cyberpunk 2077, started full production shortly after the Witcher 3 was finished in 2015. C2077's engine is called 'Red Engine 4', and they also describe it as a 'brand new' engine, however true that may be. With 2077 releasing albeit in a poor state to put it lightly, CDPR has never the less released two triple A titles inside the development span of Bannerlord despite being in a similar starting bracket 11 years prior. TaleWorlds even had a year head start as they began work on Bannerlord in 2010, where as production for the Witcher 3 did not start until 2011 on the heels of the Witcher 2 release.
You see it turns out if you release games people will buy them with money, you can then take that money and hire more developers to make the next game sooner, bigger or better as desired. Clearly CDPR opted for sooner rather than bigger or better for Cyberpunk but I digress. This was a tale of two companies, where one was managed well (until recently) and the other one was not.
That was a good read.
Do you know if CDPR was contractually obliged to deliver on specific dates (like in a publishing deal)? Because Taleworlds had no obligations to finish Bannerlord and they can keep dragging their heels indefinitely, especially as they are a private company unaccountable to public investors.
If CDPR didn't have contractual pressure, more power to them for prioritizing efficiency (and therefore optimizing costs) in their development, which is where Taleworlds is failing.
Do you know if CDPR was contractually obliged to deliver on specific dates (like in a publishing deal)? Because Taleworlds had no obligations to finish Bannerlord and they can keep dragging their heels indefinitely, especially as they are a private company unaccountable to public investors.
If CDPR didn't have contractual pressure, more power to them for prioritizing efficiency (and therefore optimizing costs) in their development, which is where Taleworlds is failing.
That is a good question, they are their own publisher/distributor as far as google says but they are a publicly traded company, though.
I imagine they have internal timetables for completion, it is rather standard for software development, as to the weight of the stick if those are not met I am not sure.
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Their stock did take a massive hit each time they delayed Cyberpunk, I imagine the threat of that was very well known prior and was probably an incentive to stay timely.
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However it appears they only went public in 2018, so relevant for Cyberpunk but not their earlier titles.
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It is probably going to be longer than just a month, more likely a year. At this point, the last thing that people should want to do is rush TW. Their biggest mistake regarding BL was the same as Cyberpunk, they announced it a long time ago. I get that it sucks, and I can't agree more, I'd rather wait for a somewhat polished game than ask them to rush out updates which would cause more bugs.
The majority just like the game. It doesn't really matter if they don't know what it was supposed to be like five years ago, or all of the missing features. In fact, I do agree with you. The game that TW promised does seem to be better than what we currently have in our EA version. However, the rhetoric of painting those who like the game as being idiots and ignorant isn't a great argument either in terms of trying to get people to agree with you. You didn't call people idiots, however, they have been called idiots in the past, and just labeling their opinion as due to being ignorant won't win you any favors.
I didn't get that argument from what he wrote whatsoever. As for what you wrote, I can't really agree or disagree in totality. Yes, BL is less than what was promised five long years ago, however it isn't less than Warband in its totality. Once they work, the sieges of BL will be better than the ones in WB, and the clan and death system is also a good addition. BL isn't worse than WB in totality, there are many instances of improvement. However, BL should be better than WB, and expand upon its systems. That is what a good sequel does.
Probably best to keep this talk contained to one thread rather than the entirety of the forum.
I mean @MostBlunted is not wrong though. I don't think there's really many people, if any, that truly understand how the game works. I sure don't. I doubt you do either. Are you able to explain in detail how the economy works? Or how influence works? What about AI behavior in individual combat, small battles and sieges? Horse archers behavior? Handling of spears? I don't really know how any of that works. It doesn't mean that I am a moron.
I think that what @MostBlunted was going for is that some people are just happy to hack along and think the game is fun to play like that. I don't enjoy that. I would prefer to be able to understand, have more control on things and feel like my actions matter and have an impact on the world. That was more of a thing in Warband, vanilla Warband even. Bannerlord is very complex under the hood, but the overall gameplay experience feels shallow and dumbed down because as players we are not really able to tinker under that hood. Nothing we do really matters. Upgrading armor doesn't matter, upgrading troops doesn't matter, leveling up matters kinda but not really. There's more, but you know what I am talking about so I'd rather not make a long laundry list. All of that leaves the game unsatisfying.
Some people don't care about any of that and just enjoy smashing things. Doesn't make them dumb, just with different tastes. Arguably the fact that Bannerlord is enjoyed by this type of person goes against the core gameplay that made Warband what it was though.
They only listened to the modders because they know without them this game is nothing.
I'm sure a lot of people who never played Warband are enjoying Bannerlord, but why should it be a reason to accept a much lessor version than what it should've been?
But what actually frustrates me the most is Taleworlds have absolutely no intention of creating that game they advertised through their very own devblogs, since when is false advertising okay? They can't use the "things change through development" excuse for every single interesting thing.
Even read a thread a few weeks ago of someone asking for settlements for minor factions (you know something they actually had shown in older videos), and Duh came and said they won't be adding it but it would be cool for a mod hehe.
I'm sure a lot of people who never played Warband are enjoying Bannerlord, but why should it be a reason to accept a much lessor version than what it should've been?
But what actually frustrates me the most is Taleworlds have absolutely no intention of creating that game they advertised through their very own devblogs, since when is false advertising okay? They can't use the "things change through development" excuse for every single interesting thing.
Even read a thread a few weeks ago of someone asking for settlements for minor factions (you know something they actually had shown in older videos), and Duh came and said they won't be adding it but it would be cool for a mod hehe.
Thank you! This is the healthy middle between two polar opposites. I couldn’t agree more. When talking about the majority of the players, its impossible to go to a extreme and state that they simple dont care, understand or want a more complex gameplay.
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