Bannerlord was a grift

[Nogand]

I’m posting this from my phone, so forgive the readability if it sucks. I’m also moving it to this thread as it seems more relevant than where I first put it.

The history of the game is the rags to riches dream of any new game developer. In this case starting from nothing, then making a basic working concept medieval fighting game. WarRider.

Then expanding and building an engine with a small development team into a real marketable game. Mount & Blade.

Then they expand just a little more on that rock-solid foundation of tried and true software and expand the features and improve the quality with the standalone expansion. They document the simplicity of modifying the code so that the game’s life is extensible even by amateur developers and modders FAR past its release replayability.

Warband, a beautiful game I spent probably over ten thousand hours playing. I’ve played it more than any other game.

Then they decided to take the next logical step.
They’re not Indie anymore, they’re ready to be the biggest video game development studio in Turkey.

A true sequel successor is what makes sense.
Bannerlord.
What could go wrong?

Well if you’re starting from scratch creatively on a brand new software engine with a large development team and you’ve never done that before...

Anything, everything can absolutely go wrong and if you do not know the way, with something like software development, it is virtually guaranteed to go wrong.

I’ve been absolutely saddened by the state of BannerLord. I’ve sort of moved on.
I’ve also lately been absolutely intrigued by learning about software development as a discipline.

My favourite channel to listen to about this subject is Continuous Delivery.

He posted a video today describing in some detail his understanding of the efficient production of software.



I think what has happened is that much of the early development time was lost. This is really a very ambitious and complex project. They probably had to scrap much of their progress due to an inefficient development cycle. Hence the need for an even now incomplete refactoring of the code.

I don’t think it’s anybody’s fault really. The fact is that the game is too large of a project for certain development strategies.

If the development strategy is not correct from the beginning there is potential for massive amounts of time and work to be wasted.

I get the feeling that this may be what has happened. It’s an honest mistake, I think.

Whether the game’s development can be saved at this point remains to be seen. At this point TW has got to be feeling the heat. I want badly for them to succeed, but the state of the game is improving too slowly. It’s just not fun enough, and it won’t be until some point after the refactoring is satisfactory to TW and the modding community can finally get their teeth into the gameplay side of things.

Their Steam Reviews are still "Very Positive", so if they do feel the heat, it's probably just a tingle.

 

[Lord Grindelvald]

It doesn't take a genius to change a few numbers on units. However, to be fair...this type of rebalancing modding (slightly editing stats) is incredibly tough. Not in terms of actual work, but in terms of what needs to be done. A slight difference can severely outbalance the game and a ton of care and thought needs to be put into each decision. I think that of all the mods I've heard of with this type of modding, Darth definitely did it best. He was incredibly skilled in that regard, and its again, quite a shame he didn't continue past when he did. Would be nice if we had someone like this in Bannerlord, though if you thought CA was bad with their modders, oh boy, TW says hold my beer...

Paradox (or Cities Skylines) has a very good policy on it.
Modders who actively contributed on the workshop and are especially good in a certain niche get hired by them to create DLC’s. They’ve done this time and time again. Works like a charm.

 

[Roy1012]

Paradox (or Cities Skylines) has a very good policy on it.
Modders who actively contributed on the workshop and are especially good in a certain niche get hired by them to create DLC’s. They’ve done this time and time again. Works like a charm.

Just like Napoleonic Wars, so obviously, TW is not foreign to this idea. Still, of course, at least for the time being, they have decided against that. Can't have people complain you aren't implementing multiplayer mods if you don't let them make mods. Brain huge, 10000 wrinkles.

 

[MostBlunted]

It doesn't take a genius to change a few numbers on units.

It took TW quite some time back then to fix the "wrong" unit stats, like 2h units have better 1h stats than 2h

 

[Roy1012]

It took TW quite some time back then to fix the "wrong" unit stats, like 2h units have better 1h stats than 2h

I can understand from a competetive standpoint the apprehension towards buffing/nerfing certain weapons. My brother will never stop complaining about how patches ruin a game (In his case, Super Smash Bros), you practice against a technique, just for it to get changed, thus having you throw out all the time you practiced against it. That being said, warband is not much of a competitive game, especially not in single player, that's for sure. I imagine troops could be balanced quite often without this being an issue. Multiplayer servers should have the option to keep certain damages/speeds of weapons and combat in general, if Taleworlds ever bothered releasing private servers. Who knows what TW decides to do with this kind of stuff on their servers! We have no choice in the matter.

 

[Aurex]

"I find it draining, personally, I only feel the urge a few times a year to come here, or reddit or steam discussion to simply bring up the same facts I have been bringing up every year since 2016"

It *is* kind of draining. But I feel most of us, deep down, come here because of a variant of the bystander effect. Or perhaps it's something a little more depressing.

The development of this game, and the game itself, can be seen as some kind of shattered promise ended terribly, a catastrophe even, but it's artificially kept alive due to... uncertainty. It's basically us as a not-so-young-anymore person going to the hospital to visit a long-stay patient in a coma who happens to be our significant other.

We go there often, but sometimes not as often as before. We know, deep down, they will never regain consciousness. But we still want to feel their presence and to remember how significant they were for us when they were still with us. So we go there, we bring fresh flowers... we talk about mundane things with them, not knowing if they can hear us... for they surely do not answer.

It always goes the same way: we drive to the hospital, we bring flowers to their room, we make jokes and try to maintain a veneer of optimism. Then it gets soul-crushing to see our significant other lying there, as they have been for... 11 years. So we take a break before giving that almost ritual last kiss on the forehead and go home.

As we sit in the hospital cafeteria, head filled with wonderful moments long past, we see there are other people in the same situation. Instead of being there alone, they slowly formed a group: they all share the same predicament. They all want someone to hear their voices, their stories which are so very relevant to their person. So we join up, make some acquaintances and we chat, we jest and we try not to be too miserable together. Sometimes we fight, but what keeps us talking and complaining and remembering how better it was when our loved ones were still fully with us... is the fact that we don't want to tell the doctors we want them to pull the plug on what's keeping our loved ones alive.

 

[Phantom425]

I am fairly certain quite a few people have taken this thread very seriously, you yourself amongst them, seeing as you continue to post on it.

You mistake me posting here for taking this as a serious critique of the game. I post here because I see a lot of bad arguments being made, and I wish to fight back against that to make sure the place doesn't become an echo-chamber.

As mentioned above, I believe both this thread and the modding letter have both the same purpose, goal and meaning behind them. Sure, theirs was far more professional (although this thread did start very fact based, as you can look at the OP, you can see I lay out my argument in a very succinct and regimented way. It was only after the pages and pages that the discourse devolved into what it is now, though when people such as @ShakenSpeare and @MadVader post, they do point out things very factually, albeit with some snarkiness/cunning/cheekiness from the latter.

No, it isn't. The modder letter was meant to get a response from TW on an issue that was affecting the modding community. They applied themselves professionally and effectively, making sure to keep the situation civil and get what they wanted from TW. This thread starts out asking the question as to whether or not this game is a grift, a scam. If this meant to get TW to fix a specific problem while keeping the discussion civil I think that this thread really isn't doing that too well. This thread is more of a place where people generally just **** on the game.

It's inconclusive imo. While back in those pages (I think it was around page people were pretty sympathetic towards them, though the bad updates since then cooled those sentiments, and the unmitigated failure of the recent 1.6 update has enraged everyone again, and understandably so. I can't say that I'm not happy with the negative reaction to 1.6; the vitriol is well-deserved.

Yeah, it should have been conclusive. Mexxico stated why development has been rough, and that should make people understand why it has been taking so long. If that was forgotten after one update, when the game is still in ongoing development, that speaks more to the community then to the state of the game.

Just like Napoleonic Wars, so obviously, TW is not foreign to this idea. Still, of course, at least for the time being, they have decided against that. Can't have people complain you aren't implementing multiplayer mods if you don't let them make mods. Brain huge, 10000 wrinkles.

The game isn't released. They won't even consider doing this until after release. It literally makes no sense for them to do this at this point in the game's lifecycle.

 

[Roy1012]

You mistake me posting here for taking this as a serious critique of the game. I post here because I see a lot of bad arguments being made, and I wish to fight back against that to make sure the place doesn't become an echo-chamber.

You complain about bad arguments, and yet you argue for arguing's sake. You have held mutually exculsive opinions multiple times during this thread, just because someone posed the opposite opinion.

This thread starts out asking the question as to whether or not this game is a grift, a scam.

Is this not a genuine question? Seeing as I brought up relevant statistics, debunked any arguments to the contrary, and now the only thing this thread has to talk about is other topics about how Bannerlord sucks in general. Seeing as how many people, especially at the beginning, accepted my sentiment, in fact the first comment I believe said "Turning out to be right on the mark" or something like that, it's pretty obvious that this claim has some merit.

If that was forgotten after one update, when the game is still in ongoing development, that speaks more to the community then to the state of the game.

The sad thing is that you can't change a few minor things for a 35 mb download and call it an "update". Seriously, scabbards? Come on. Taleworlds, you can't just call that a major 1.4 or whatever update. Most of TW's "major" updates have been simple fixes that didn't actually do anything. Hence why people are angry.

The game isn't released. They won't even consider doing this until after release. It literally makes no sense for them to do this at this point in the game's lifecycle.

Yeah. After 11 years. That's pathetic and ridiculous. It does make sense for them to allow people to mod on multiplayer/custom servers, they are able to do it on single player. They released the modding tools, so obivously it does. I don't mean to insult you but please think or research your point before you say it, because that makes no sense.

 

[MostBlunted]

Their Steam Reviews are still "Very Positive", so if they do feel the heat, it's probably just a tingle.

If you check the first 1-3 pages in the Steam forum you´ll notice that the tide has turned a little bit and that there are a few similar threads like here.

 

[Mad Vader]

Their Steam Reviews are still "Very Positive", so if they do feel the heat, it's probably just a tingle.

The Steam review score is very average. Success on Steam means "Overwhelmingly Positive".

But they are probably happy with "average" too, it means they can market their DLCs as huge improvements.

 

[MostBlunted]

I bet that they won´t go down to average ever.

My theory:

There are lot of "new" Bannerlord players who bought the game but didn´t own Warband and didn´t follow the dev blogs and all that stuff.

For those kind of players this game must be a good game. They can´t even compare it to any other game on the market. I don´t think that many of those players even know what is really going on in the game. They just enjoy those huge battles. And if they have enough of it they move on to the next game.

 

[Shaxx]

It *is* kind of draining. But I feel most of us, deep down, come here because of a variant of the bystander effect. Or perhaps it's something a little more depressing.

The development of this game, and the game itself, can be seen as some kind of shattered promise ended terribly, a catastrophe even, but it's artificially kept alive due to... uncertainty. It's basically us as a not-so-young-anymore person going to the hospital to visit a long-stay patient in a coma who happens to be our significant other.

We go there often, but sometimes not as often as before. We know, deep down, they will never regain consciousness. But we still want to feel their presence and to remember how significant they were for us when they were still with us. So we go there, we bring fresh flowers... we talk about mundane things with them, not knowing if they can hear us... for they surely do not answer.

It always goes the same way: we drive to the hospital, we bring flowers to their room, we make jokes and try to maintain a veneer of optimism. Then it gets soul-crushing to see our significant other lying there, as they have been for... 11 years. So we take a break before giving that almost ritual last kiss on the forehead and go home.

As we sit in the hospital cafeteria, head filled with wonderful moments long past, we see there are other people in the same situation. Instead of being there alone, they slowly formed a group: they all share the same predicament. They all want someone to hear their voices, their stories which are so very relevant to their person. So we join up, make some acquaintances and we chat, we jest and we try not to be too miserable together. Sometimes we fight, but what keeps us talking and complaining and remembering how better it was when our loved ones were still fully with us... is the fact that we don't want to tell the doctors we want them to pull the plug on what's keeping our loved ones alive.

Yes but reduced by x0.05% because it is just a video game.

 

[Mad Vader]

I bet that they won´t go down to average ever.

My theory:

There are lot of "new" Bannerlord players who bought the game but didn´t own Warband and didn´t follow the dev blogs and all that stuff.

For those kind of players this game must be a good game. They can´t even compare it to any other game on the market. I don´t think that many of those players even know what is really going on in the game. They just enjoy those huge battles. And if they have enough of it they move on to the next game.

The average rating for a released game on Steam is 86%. Warband is at 87% and falling. So, that's an average game judging by Steam ratings - THE ONLY OBJECTIVE MEASURE.

 

[TheBerserk]

If you check the first 1-3 pages in the Steam forum you´ll notice that the tide has turned a little bit and that there are a few similar threads like here.

Anyway the steam community is known to have mediocre tastes when you see certain games that stand out as positive even though they are considered to be scams outside the steam platform

 

[Phantom425]

You complain about bad arguments, and yet you argue for arguing's sake. You have held mutually exculsive opinions multiple times during this thread, just because someone posed the opposite opinion.

I argue because I disagree with what is being said. When I don't see something that I disagree with, then I won't argue.

As for the mutually exclusive opinions, please bring them up to me. I'll either concede that I was wrong at some point or elaborate further on what I believe.

Is this not a genuine question? Seeing as I brought up relevant statistics, debunked any arguments to the contrary, and now the only thing this thread has to talk about is other topics about how Bannerlord sucks in general. Seeing as how many people, especially at the beginning, accepted my sentiment, in fact the first comment I believe said "Turning out to be right on the mark" or something like that, it's pretty obvious that this claim has some merit.

I brought that up to show that there is a core difference between this thread and the modding letter. This thread asked if the game a grift/scam, whereas the modding letter worked to start a discussion on a core issue with the game which has since been elaborated on and is still getting worked on.

And just because people agree on something doesn't mean it has merit. More people have reviewed BL as positive rather than negative, so does that mean that the game is clearly better? Just because a lot of people agree on something or disagree on something doesn't mean that that thing is true.

The sad thing is that you can't change a few minor things for a 35 mb download and call it an "update". Seriously, scabbards? Come on. Taleworlds, you can't just call that a major 1.4 or whatever update. Most of TW's "major" updates have been simple fixes that didn't actually do anything. Hence why people are angry.

I mean, I don't really think that just changing it to 1.6 would mean much. They released what would be in that update, and in the following update they then released keep battles. 1.6.0 brought a lot of changes to modding, which was what was requested by the modders. It wasn't, by any means, a bad update. If anything, in my opinion, it was one of the better ones. They listened to what a large part of the community wanted and then they delivered on it.

And as for simples fixes being the updates, that's kinda what the game needs. As many people can agree, there are many issues with the game that isn't just features not being present. A lot of updates in the EA phase will be focused on bug fixes and the like, while more important features most likely coming at the end of the cycle or after it.

Yeah. After 11 years. That's pathetic and ridiculous. It does make sense for them to allow people to mod on multiplayer/custom servers, they are able to do it on single player. They released the modding tools, so obivously it does. I don't mean to insult you but please think or research your point before you say it, because that makes no sense.

It really isn't pathetic, it just means that there has been troubled development. And, with Mexxico's statement that has once again been forgotten, TW hasn't had the best decade to be developing the game. They've stated countless times that custom servers are coming at or after the release. It would be nice to have a concrete date for that release date, but we don't. So, until then, all that can be done on it is wait until they are released. Once custom servers are released, then so will modding tools for these servers, at least I hope they will. If this isn't done, then there will be valid reasons for concern. But TW has not said that they won't restrict modding for custom servers yet, or as far as I am aware.

I thought about what I said before I posted it, and I stand by it now. There is no reason for TW to bring on modders for possible community DLC at this point in the game's lifecycle. The game is still in EA, being tweaked and getting set up for release.

There are lot of "new" Bannerlord players who bought the game but didn´t own Warband and didn´t follow the dev blogs and all that stuff.

For those kind of players this game must be a good game. They can´t even compare it to any other game on the market. I don´t think that many of those players even know what is really going on in the game. They just enjoy those huge battles. And if they have enough of it they move on to the next game.

The average rating for a released game on Steam is 86%. Warband is at 87% and falling. So, that's an average game judging by Steam ratings - THE ONLY OBJECTIVE MEASURE.

This goes back to the whole "unwashed masses" kinda deal. Yeah, a lot of people probably haven't played WB, or they have. But going "we're the real fans" is kinda a real big cope. As seen by the steam reviews, while they are average for the steam store, a majority of players actually found the game good enough to give it a positive review.

Also, I don't get the argument that's even being made. The majority of people who played BL enjoy the game. Is your argument meant to disagree with the fact that a lot of people actually like BL? Do you want BL to fail? I'm confused.

 

[Aurex]

Yes but reduced by x0.05% because it is just a video game.

Well of course, I was just being morbid on purpose there. It's just a little sad instead of a tragedy!

 

[Mad Vader]

I mean, I don't really think that just changing it to 1.6 would mean much. They released what would be in that update, and in the following update they then released keep battles. 1.6.0 brought a lot of changes to modding, which was what was requested by the modders. It wasn't, by any means, a bad update. If anything, in my opinion, it was one of the better ones. They listened to what a large part of the community wanted and then they delivered on it.

Forced into it by public pressure, not listening and delivering as promised. Don't forget that part, company friendly person.

And as for simples fixes being the updates, that's kinda what the game needs. As many people can agree, there are many issues with the game that isn't just features not being present. A lot of updates in the EA phase will be focused on bug fixes and the like, while more important features most likely coming at the end of the cycle or after it.

It really isn't pathetic, it just means that there has been troubled development. And, with Mexxico's statement that has once again been forgotten, TW hasn't had the best decade to be developing the game. They've stated countless times that custom servers are coming at or after the release. It would be nice to have a concrete date for that release date, but we don't. So, until then, all that can be done on it is wait until they are released. Once custom servers are released, then so will modding tools for these servers, at least I hope they will. If this isn't done, then there will be valid reasons for concern. But TW has not said that they won't restrict modding for custom servers yet, or as far as I am aware.

I thought about what I said before I posted it, and I stand by it now. There is no reason for TW to bring on modders for possible community DLC at this point in the game's lifecycle. The game is still in EA, being tweaked and getting set up for release.

You are just wrong here and have no real argument ("it's EA = no modding"). There are ample reasons to support modding the game during the EA and many other games did this with success: Minecraft, Mount and Blade, Rimworld...
The reason is to keep a player base playing the game and getting new players through word of mouth and youtuber marketing (and youtubers love mods). There's a window of opportunity when the game is fresh (as at EA release) and many players are curious about it - if you let your player base die because they've seen it, got bored (or worse) and moved on, you are going to have a small audience when you actually release and try to sell your DLCs.
The proof that mods are needed during the EA is that everyone that plays now uses mods - some that fix the game and some that expand it where Taleworlds didn't want to. Without mods, people would just play something else until there's enough progress.
The biggest crime here is what they did to the MP players, both by negligent progress and not releasing custom servers to allow modding. If they did release the servers, we would have a very lively MP scene today and people buying Bannerlord just to play with the other filthy-mouthed 12-year olds. When they eventually release Bannerlord and custom servers, Bannerlord MP will be old news with smaller player base.

This goes back to the whole "unwashed masses" kinda deal. Yeah, a lot of people probably haven't played WB, or they have. But going "we're the real fans" is kinda a real big cope. As seen by the steam reviews, while they are average for the steam store, a majority of players actually found the game good enough to give it a positive review.

Also, I don't get the argument that's even being made. The majority of people who played BL enjoy the game. Is your argument meant to disagree with the fact that a lot of people actually like BL? Do you want BL to fail? I'm confused.

You are making a binary, Steam-rating-like argument here that distorts the picture. We really argue that a 3.5/5 star game should have been (and was marketed as) a 4.5/5 star game.

 

[julijs]

the longer Bannerlord stays in early-access or initial development, the more chances they have to continuously prune the game into a spectator simulation. -what's the next thing to be removed from the players control? the burden of hiring and maintaining your party, let the AI do it. (taleworlds management probably)

 

[Dearmad]

It *is* kind of draining. But I feel most of us, deep down, come here because of a variant of the bystander effect. Or perhaps it's something a little more depressing.

The development of this game, and the game itself, can be seen as some kind of shattered promise ended terribly, a catastrophe even, but it's artificially kept alive due to... uncertainty. It's basically us as a not-so-young-anymore person going to the hospital to visit a long-stay patient in a coma who happens to be our significant other.

We go there often, but sometimes not as often as before. We know, deep down, they will never regain consciousness. But we still want to feel their presence and to remember how significant they were for us when they were still with us. So we go there, we bring fresh flowers... we talk about mundane things with them, not knowing if they can hear us... for they surely do not answer.

It always goes the same way: we drive to the hospital, we bring flowers to their room, we make jokes and try to maintain a veneer of optimism. Then it gets soul-crushing to see our significant other lying there, as they have been for... 11 years. So we take a break before giving that almost ritual last kiss on the forehead and go home.

As we sit in the hospital cafeteria, head filled with wonderful moments long past, we see there are other people in the same situation. Instead of being there alone, they slowly formed a group: they all share the same predicament. They all want someone to hear their voices, their stories which are so very relevant to their person. So we join up, make some acquaintances and we chat, we jest and we try not to be too miserable together. Sometimes we fight, but what keeps us talking and complaining and remembering how better it was when our loved ones were still fully with us... is the fact that we don't want to tell the doctors we want them to pull the plug on what's keeping our loved ones alive.

Oh **** me this hit the nail on the head in bad ways! LOL! I uninstalled back in december and looked the other way. It felt kinda good. Not judgemental, just needed a break from the coma patient.

I came back, and thought I'd try out the current state- d/l'ing the game and unstable beta now. And then I read this! LOL I wanna cry.... it's all so true!!!!!!

 

[Lord Grindelvald]

I bet that they won´t go down to average ever.

My theory:

There are lot of "new" Bannerlord players who bought the game but didn´t own Warband and didn´t follow the dev blogs and all that stuff.

For those kind of players this game must be a good game. They can´t even compare it to any other game on the market. I don´t think that many of those players even know what is really going on in the game. They just enjoy those huge battles. And if they have enough of it they move on to the next game.

Not a great theory since it relies on the vast majority of the players being as dumb as a doornail.