Bannerlord was a grift

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Ser Jon

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
What's there to educate? Who cares if he worked in the software industry beyond it being cool. What's the relevancy of it to the issue at hand? That's no reason to pat TW on the back despite their rather comical "effort" and act like nothing's wrong.
 

Ruihan

Recruit
Yeah, but most SP games have player activity drop like a rock. The exceptions aren't because of any sort of inherent quality but because they have DLC scheduled to counter the drop.
This video compares bannerlord player activity to several over rts games. The trend that bannerlord displays isnt all that different.
 

Ruihan

Recruit
So in that very real sense -they have sold out their long term fanbase - maybe not knowing or caring we would never blindly get behind them again. They made so much $$$, they may no longer care or they are willing to gamble on the less hardcore fan returning for another round of mediocrity -who knows..
I get that for the long term fans the issue isn't just a matter of the $50 (or whatever regional price is) and they have a lot more invested, but I don't see it as a betrayal yet. They are still working on the game and taking suggestions from the community, so until they fully abandoned developing the game or moved onto selling DLCs for bannerlord I dont see it as them going for a quick cash grab.
I too am frustrated by the slow pace of development but I can kind of understand why. If look at vacant developer positions on the Taleworlds website https://www.taleworlds.com/en/Career you can see they are still missing 4 software engineers and 2 UI designers for bannerlord. Its pretty hard to find competent skilled professional like software engineers in counties such as Turkey that don't offer competitive wages. For a small game development studio like Taleworlds I can see how missing several developers in one area can create a pretty big bottleneck that slows down the development of the rest of the game.
I know its frustrating when updates include stuff like 4k sheep textures and more ornamental amours that never get used instead of siege fixes and other core mechanics, but its not like the art team can just pick up the slack on the coding side. There is a clear mismatch of skillsets and its better to have them doing something no matter how trivial rather then just doing nothing while waiting for the coding stuff to catch up.
 

Ruihan

Recruit
STAN TUTORIALS HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA NOOOOOO
I see what you mean
I'm not the biggest fan of his style either
but try to look past that at only data
The data shows that bannerlord average player numbers have been pretty stable for the last year or so, maybe increasing slightly
and thats pretty consistent with most RTS game after the initial release hype
 
This is a brutally poor take.

Having worked at a lot of software companies you would be shocked at the quagmires that can bog down development and all the things that eat up revenue - like localization, copy writers, human resources, finance, accounting, legal. Marketing isn't the only overhead. Not only that your salary is not the only cost a company incurs, plus you are focused on EBITDA which is different than profit.

The game isn't a grift, it's ambitious as Hell for a company of TaleWorlds size and because the scope of the game far exceeds their ability to effectively play test it, they released it in early access.

I am a lifelong gamer and have been in the software industry for 15+ years. The business takes I see are always way off and we would all be better served by offering the company constructive feedback rather than dismal dismissive takes on behind the scenes operations.
Everyone knows development can get bogged down, but a game being unfinished after a decade of development isn't normal like you're making it out to be.

Ambitious? This game didn't reach many grand heights compared to Warband. The main two innovations are a new engine and bigger battles. Those are the only major innovations. Graphics don't count, the graphics are average during a time like now. TW was far smaller back then, so by what standard is "ambitious as hell" asserting? This logic just isn't following through. Not even saying that Bannerlord isn't at all ambitious, but compared to Warband and their resources back then? It's kinda pathetic.
No.

My position is that even if BL had MP as good as WB's the overwhelming majority of players still would stop playing it by now because they wouldn't even play good MP. Dudes like the power fantasy aspect and being in command of big armies, that's what M&B does that other games don't do. MP isn't that, has never been that, so most players don't even bother with it.

The melee slasher niche is pretty small overall. Mordhau has been under 5k average for years and Chiv 2's release managed to eat a third of it. I think Conqueror's Blade is around the same.
Didn't you say before that MP games have longer life spans than SP games? If the MP was badass as hell you can bet your life expectancy that a lot of people would still be playing now. M&B MP has been far more popular than you say, definitely not the majority of the player base, but it wasn't all that far behind. M&B offers something that Chivalry and Mordhau lack, big battles. You just can't find alternatives for 200 player sieges.
Nice post, but you're wasting your time trying to educate these guys.
It feels good to be on the winning side, come join. We've got cookies.
I see what you mean
I'm not the biggest fan of his style either
but try to look past that at only data
Virtually everyone here hates him, you'll be the victim of memes for this.
 

froggyluv

Grandmaster Knight
NW
but I don't see it as a betrayal yet. They are still working on the game and taking suggestions from the community, so until they fully abandoned developing the game or moved onto selling DLCs for bannerlord I dont see it as them going for a quick cash grab.

We all have different thresholds of tolerance- your is obviously higher. But you see - why would you wait to have your point proven that they did indeed abandon until after the fact and it really is too late. If you think about it - that stance is more foolish pragmatically than trying to stave off the impending flood of failure because without vocal action by dissent - your prediction is sure to come true. At least strong opposition as meager as it may move the developer board room meeting decision needle, at least may have SOME level of effect. Acceptance and worse, congratulations will surely doom it to what we have now presently

If you are familiar with game developers- the lone wolf idealist being the outlying exception - they always take the path of least resistance especially if they’ve already scored financially and have the measure of “fan approval” on steam
 

Ruihan

Recruit
that stance is more foolish pragmatically than trying to stave off the impending flood of failure because without vocal action by dissent - your prediction is sure to come true. At least strong opposition as meager as it may move the developer board room meeting decision needle, at least may have SOME level of effect. Acceptance and worse, congratulations will surely doom it to what we have now presently
There definitely are threads on this forum that are trying to drive the development of the game in the right direction
among many.
I just don't see this thread as one of them. It seems like the bulk of this thread is an attack on the company and developers rather than offering any concrete feature specific requests, suggestions, critiques or demands (there is some but its mostly getting buried by the other stuff and better off being in its own separate thread). I don't think this will merit much discussion in any developer board room as there is nothing of substance to discuss here.

If you are familiar with game developers- the lone wolf idealist being the outlying exception - they always take the path of least resistance especially if they’ve already scored financially and have the measure of “fan approval” on steam
I have read the developer replies to this thread and they sound genuine to me. A lot of developers do this line of work out of passions and their own love of the game. As someone who has worked in the software industry, I can tell you there are plenty of higher paying and less stressful jobs in the coding than game development. I think its incredibly rude and disrespect when developers get dismissed at lazy and incompetent by people who doesn't even have an inkling of an idea of how the industry works and how much stress developers are under.

But you see - why would you wait to have your point proven that they did indeed abandon until after the fact and it really is too late
Its a matter of principle for me. I give other people a chance to prove themselves and let them finish before I dismiss them as a failure just as I would like other people to give me a chance to prove my competence with my work.

Overall I think Taleworlds have created the frame work of a very unique and interesting game. There is nothing else like this in the RTS genre which is why I keep playing this game. A lot of people dont give Taleworlds credit for the things that they done right or the things they improved upon since warband. I understand there are a lot of missing features, but those can be added with time and the bugs and crashes can be fixed with time. As long as the game is being developed I dont see those flaws as fatal failures.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
But your assumption of this comes from your assumption that it worked that way in Warband, when isn't accurate and doesn't connect to Bannerlord at all.
It is accurate, unless you can point to something showing more than 25% of Warband's playerbase touched MP, let alone stayed with it. I wouldn't expect BL to do any better than that, even if MP were really good, because the game wasn't marketed as an MP title, it was marketed towards the SP audience. A lot of people just don't like competitive gaming, for a variety of reasons.
Didn't you say before that MP games have longer life spans than SP games?
MP exclusive ones, yes, assuming they catch lightning in a bottle. We're not talking about M&B MP here. We're talking stuff like CS:GO, LoL, Fortnite, etc. which is either an esport, streamer-friendly or both. There hasn't been a big melee slasher hit on that scale and a lot of them -- Chiv, WotR -- were nearly-dead in a year or two. Mordhau isn't dead, but its sustained player population isn't even a tenth of what it had on release and Chiv 2 being a direct competitor might just kill both of them.
 
This video compares bannerlord player activity to several over rts games. The trend that bannerlord displays isnt all that different.
STAN can't even comprehend what he's looking at there. All he does is steal people's posts (who don't want to be in his videos) and blabber over them incoherently for cheap "content". He has zero understanding of game mechanics and doesn't even play the updates himself. He's a poser and a fraud.
He is the absolute least reputable, most ill-informed person on youtube to ever dare make a bannerlord video. If you're going to listen to youtubers at least choose people who put time into playing the game like @Flesson19 or @ItalianSpartacus .

Here's a forum topic about the steam charts too, of which, of course STAN also :poop:'d a blabbery react video to, nothing he does is anything thig but just regurgitating what he steals from here and reddit. He only remains because he is too small and boring to be dealt with like a proper lolcow. He just kinda sucks and won't stop reading peoples posts in his crappy videos.
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...rum-a-pit-of-disappointment-yes-it-is.442942/
Turn on add blockhttps://youtu.be/ 4z2tSdrYNDY
 
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STAN can't even comprehend what he's looking at there. All he does is steal people's posts (who don't want to be in his videos) and blabber over them incoherently for cheap "content". He has zero understanding of game mechanics and doesn't even play the updates himself. He's a poser and a fraud.
He is the absolute least reputable, most ill-informed person on youtube to ever dare make a bannerlord video. If you're going to listen to youtubers at least choose people who put time into playing the game like @Flesson19 or @ItalianSpartacus .

Here's a forum topic about the steam charts too, of which, of course STAN also :poop:'d a blabbery react video to, nothing he does is anything thig but just regurgitating what he steals from here and reddit. He only remains because he is too small and boring to be dealt with like a proper lolcow. He just kinda sucks and won't stop reading peoples posts in his crappy videos.
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...rum-a-pit-of-disappointment-yes-it-is.442942/
Turn on add blockhttps://youtu.be/ 4z2tSdrYNDY
Cant say I’m not in agreement there. He is a bit of a clown, you’re a bit harsh but I can’t really think of a way to debunk what your saying.
 

bonerstorm

Veteran
Game is pretty enjoyable for me, and thats enough imo. There is no point arguing it.
'Ate Quests
'Ate Sieges
'Ate Laddurs
'Ate Spears
'Ate Roweplay

Luv Grafficks
Luv Clicky Mouse Fightin'
Luv Killin' Lootahs
Luv Big Numbahs
Luv TaleWhirls

Simple as.
Now imagine if Steam had a rating scale of 1 to 10 (like this poll) - the average would be much less impressive than 87%. It's artificially inflated number with little meaning because of the rules/sucks rating system.
Clueless normies who think they are clever are dropping in here every week and saying "but what about that Steam rating, checkmate haters". At least read the thread about Steam ratings first because we see this simplistic argument all the time.
Or he could have thumbed back just a few pages in this very thread to basically the exact same conversation, where I outlined in detail why the Steam reviews are meaningless and quoted like a dozen different "positive" reviews either blasting the game, displaying general ignorance or desperately wishing for "complete" features that will never come.

One of the genuinely unfortunate things about this regular argument is that one side consistently remains in the discussion while the other just pops in piecemeal without even lurking first.

Y'all's mileage may vary, but I'm guessing that the "Bannerlord was a gift" people don't know what they're talking about because they wouldn't be TW defenders if they had half a clue. That includes people who are perennial defenders but whose brains are impervious to information that conflicts with their obsessive faith in this game being the awesomest thing ever.
Having worked at a lot of software companies you would be shocked at the quagmires that can bog down development and all the things that eat up revenue - like localization, copy writers, human resources, finance, accounting, legal. Marketing isn't the only overhead. Not only that your salary is not the only cost a company incurs, plus you are focused on EBITDA which is different than profit.

The game isn't a grift, it's ambitious as Hell for a company of TaleWorlds size and because the scope of the game far exceeds their ability to effectively play test it, they released it in early access.
Case in point.

I'm really trying hard not be a jerk about it, but I've worked at software companies too and... you simply cannot arrive at this conclusion unless you know little to nothing about the conversation on this forum the past year and a half.

The game launched without a roadmap. It still doesn't have a roadmap. When we tried to make our own roadmap (see my sig for link) using the previous game's features and the current game's years of marketing material as a guide, we were told by astonished devs that they had no earthly idea that we wanted these features in the game and that we should temper our expectations WAY DOWN.

Since then, there's been some well-needed game engine work + static tweaks to minor combat vars like armor values + minor changes to textures + features nobody asked for (like a barber - when there's already a key to change your character model on the fly).

However, practically none of the things that players have been complaining about since Day One have been addressed. The biggest example is that there's a bug where units in sieges can't figure out how to climb ladders or use siege towers... so every time we come back to the forum to check on the status of development, the question is: "Have they fixed sieges yet?" and the answer is still "No."

Basically NOOOOOO you don't get to label this situation as one of toxic fans asking too much. This isn't even a programming problem: it's a communication problem where feedback from fans isn't getting sorted and filtered, so it's stagnating into rancor and despair.
Because Warband's MP was better and most players still ignored it.
Ouch. I'm not an MP player so I wouldn't know for sure, but that sounds like an accurate and sick burn.

(BTW I don't see @Apocal as a mindless TW defender - I classify @Apocal as a frustrating nuancebro who agrees with people in extremely disagreeable ways that regularly trigger navel-gazing arguments over minutae)
 

eddiemccandless

Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
Or he could have thumbed back just a few pages in this very thread to basically the exact same conversation, where I outlined in detail why the Steam reviews are meaningless and quoted like a dozen different "positive" reviews either blasting the game, displaying general ignorance or desperately wishing for "complete" features that will never come.
Since you seem to be ok with "nuancebros", I will point out that I have a very negative opinion of Bannerlord and still think that what you are saying here is nonsense. It has been said several times, you can't explain almost 90% positive reviews with people being ignorant or unhappy with the game even if they recommend it. The reality is that most people hit that "Recommend" button. You can disagree with them (I sure do) but you can't dismiss that as worthless. It might not be a perfect metric but it's the only measure that we have of perception of Bannerlord and, like it or not, it's positive. Denying that is just a show of cognitive bias and honestly a denial of reality.
 

mujadaddy

Regular
WB
software companies
See, 'there's yer problem', we're talking about an art house, not what you said.

I think people who pay for early access games are morons. Buuuuut, I did play a lot of non-Vanilla Warband, so, I figured what the hell. Since they actually have a playable beta, we're miles ahead of where I expected, and hit people go swordy!

...why did you expect differently?
 
...why did you expect differently?
That's just salty baiting. Have you read the dev blogs right up to the EA release? That's why.
Even if the dev blogs were not misleading about features or they weren't hiding broken stuff, what they said there was a mixed bag for a Warband veteran who expected comprehensively improved Warband and not "let's pretend Warband didn't happen" game design.
 
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MostBlunted

On probation
This Stan dude compares Bannerlord to TW Warhammer and Crusader Kings? Nice!

Makes just as much sense as comparing it with Fifa or Call of Duty...what an idiot.
 
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