Or on bannerlords loading screen?They need to put up this as an announcement when coming to these forums. It works on so many levels.
-
If you are reporting a bug, please head over to our Technical Support section for Bannerlord.
Bannerlord was a grift
- Thread starter Roy1012
- Start date
Users who are viewing this thread
- Status
Just days ago you concluded that progress hasn’t actually slowed down but rather been consistent.
So can we then truly speak of a lack of progress?
QUOTE="Lord Grindelvald, post: 9743292, member: 563166"]
If it truly was a grift they wouldn't be working at the same pace as before, right? They'd maximize profits by sacking the bunch which would slow the pace down to a much slower rate then it was before.
But if that didnt happen and pace is consistent then can it be a grift?
[/QUOTE]
Yes, we can. Progress has been consistent, consistently slow that is. Which is still a problem worthy of complaining about. Just because something is consistent does not mean we cannot complain about it.
What you fail to take into account in this hypothesis is that them having the consistently slow progress is actually proof of it. Here’s why: when you hire an employee, that employee is meant to do work, giving a certain output. Yet, as many have pointed out, TW has grown a lot since 2010, hiring many more employees since then, as it was a few handfuls of people back then and is now in triple digits. However, their output of content has been roughly the same since then. How, if they have exponentially expanded their staff, could this be the case? Simplicity would suggest grifting, though sheer incompetence/mismanagement is possible, what’s far more likely is that they are only putting out the bare minimum amount of progress to have the plausible deniability to claim that they are just having internal problems and it’s “just slow, please be patient” without actually doing anything to fix the game.
Consistency doesn't automatically translate into something good.
Different companies work at different paces. For one example, look at Minecraft. The Caves and Cliffs update was announced yearly a year ago, and we still don't have the cave generation in the game. And that is a company of nearly 500 people. Slow progress doesn't show that there is a grift in progress, it is just the speed at which the company is working through. And, once again, things haven't necessarily been great for TW. With that, such as the recent political turmoil and Covid, it makes sense that things have been slow. And it isn't like anything hasn't been added. Massive expansion to SP modding has been implemented after community request, Keep battles have been added, along with Spear bracing, and the many new scenes that the art team has been working on. That's from this past summer alone. Yeah, things have been slow, but it isn't slow to show a grift. If it were a grift, we would be getting next to nothing.
Or, they may actually be having internal problems, which is incredibly believable.
What is most likely happening is that TW is struggling due to years of difficulties, and are working to make the game better. There are a lot of issues that need to be worked on, and a lot of features that have yet to be added. However, given the recent delay, TW is most likely going to try and get most of the features out by then, and then who really knows.
But things have been slow far before that. Remember that Bannerlord began development back during the early shockwaves on the New York Stock Exchange, blaming everything on covid and the Erdogan coup isn't fair because they had 5-6 years before that to get things done, and yet they still aren't getting things done. Obviously Minecraft is different, they have a far larger game with many more things to take into effect, and a far larger playerbase to satisfy. The fact that Warband was done by a much smaller team shows that TW can get it done, but why they don't is that they either choose not to, or they are so incompetently led that they cannot get anything meaningfully done during the process. Sure, I understand why 2019-current is slow (still not an excuse), but as for before that, uhh, no.
And all of those things should have been in the game already. I understand its EA and its not finished yet, so okay, they added them in, but does it really take a decade for them to add spear bracing and teleport doors into the keep? Even if you grant the game's incompetence over the past decade and look to EA in March of 2020, even with covid, there is no reason they shouldn't have gotten the game done by April and been well on their way to finishing up the first DLC by now. That's not an impossible standard.
I don't think you realize how next-to they are from nothing.
It's possible, but for a decade? Either thrown in the towel on the company, or fix it. **** or get off the pot.
Who knows. They said they'd release the game in 2016.
No. They said they'd get the game into the players hands in some form. That clearly indicated some form of beta or early access to an unfinished game, not a full release.
They didn't get it into the hands of players until Gamescom 2017 and then it was only Peter and Prezelblume, playing Captain mode MP.
Last edited:
I didn't say a full release, but the detail is kind of irrelevant, the point I'm making is that they've broken promises in the past, and are likely to do so in the future, so don't get your hopes up if they say something.
No, it isn't. Development is slow, and we already know what is going to be in the update. They just haven't released the update.
In Mexxico's post, he elaborates that the political turmoil isn't just the Coup. There has been a brain drain of sorts in Turkey due to the political upheaval, so finding quality devs is difficult. There have also been issues since 2013, such as the Gezi Resistance. Turkey has been going through issues throughout the development of BL, so I don't really blame the devs for the slow progress due to that. It has been a bad situation for a while, so I don't really feel like shaming the devs because of it is really going to get a lot done.
Okay? They weren't in the game, and now they are. The devs are working on the game, and are working on adding things that need to be added. It shows that they're working on the game and don't have the intention of dropping it before they get those features out, which that alone kinda disproves the whole grift scenario. If it was a grift, they would have never have made the future plans post, and just left the game as-is.
It is an incredibly unrealistic one. You expect them to already be working on DLCs by now, when that simply just isn't true. A game being in EA can change a lot of things. Just look at Valheim, they had to throw out their entire development roadmap because of the EA in order to focus on things like bugs.
They aren't. They really aren't. They've been releasing patches on a consistent basis, and while not all of them add massive features, the past few ones have brought decently sized additions to the game. It is far from nothing. However, I think that the two of us have a fundamental disagreement on what constitutes something.
Yes, for a decade. It'll take as long as it takes. A game taking a longer than usual amount of time to be developed doesn't mean that it is a grift.
If I'm gonna be quite frank, I also don't get the point of this argument. I know that I have contributed a lot of it, something that I do actually regret, but I still don't understand it. What is the point of it, to get people to not buy the game? That ship has kinda sailed. I get criticizing the game, this forum is definitely the place for that, but crackpot theories and spreading toxicity by calling devs incompetent really isn't doing much, especially when a dev who most people seem to like has already explained what is going on.
If you don’t think there’s a difference between mojang and Taleworlds, you are truly lost.
I mean, to play devils advocate, Turkey was going through quite a ****show during Warbands development. The Great Recession being the big one. Yet they still got it done with a lot less resources. So I’m not buying it.
Sure, but if you order a cheeseburger, and it doesn’t have cheese on it, and instead of saying “sorry about that, my mistake. It’s on the house” they throw a piece of cheese on your plate and say “well, there was no cheese. Now there is.” Are you going to be happy? The fact is there should have been cheese in the first damn place.
I’ll say that there is no doubt that bannerlord isn’t a scam because they continue updating it. Had they just released it and left it, I think that would be the textbook definition of such. However, dragging development out and failing at every opportunity to make meaningful change just convinces me that they may not want to fix the game, just improve it ever since slightly to be able to say “well, we’re trying to fix the game, give us time” when in reality they are just dragging the games lifespan out in order to rake in more sales. Doing the bare minimum to justify the game “still being supported”.
I’m not saying EA isn’t helpful. However, had they been on the job, actually on task, doing everything they could do identify problems with the game and fixing them. But they weren’t. They were making dev blogs about scabbards and loot boxes.
I’ll agree that I am being a bit hyperbolic when I say that it’s next to nothing, however when you have been in testing for over two years (including the beta) you really should have it nailed down by now. Yet they haven’t. There’s still issues in SP and don’t even get me started on the multiplayer that just doesn’t work. Like gamespy is more functional at this point.
That’s just not a satisfactory answer for me. Again with the burger analogies, and I do apologize but I can’t help myself as an american, if I go into the restaurant and I order a burger and wait half an hour and ask when it’ll be ready and the waiter says “in three days. It’ll take as long as it takes” you better believe I’m going to be angry. There’s an acceptable time for development/production of all goods, and bannerlord certainly passed that a great many years ago.
Star citizen. Okay, that was a low blow. I think that it shows incompetence more than a grift, though that in itself hasn’t been my main argument. It only augments the failures and makes them more glaring.
No. I want people to buy the game and play the game. I love Mount and blade and want to help continue its legacy into warbands sequel (or prequel I suppose if you take the lore into account but you get my point). However I don’t want to do that in terms of single player since it’s hollow and boring, and I can’t do it in multiplayer because it’s broken to all hell and modders can’t do anything. Seeing as this thread has attracted the attention/posting of Mexxico and MArDA and is the third (soon to be second in a few pages!!!) most posted on thread in the entire bannerlord subforum, I think it’s served it’s purpose of getting the attention of the TW staff, and at the very least amplified their knowledge of an angry base of fans that want change. Anything further is ****posting, debates for the lolz while passing time at work, and the slight chance someone may get something of substance out of the posts here. But I doubt that last one.
I literally told you why it wasn't different and your best response is "you are truly lost". They are a larger studio and all that needs to be done is release the game, since we already know what's going to be in it. This is literally the same situation that TW is in with their promised features.
WB wasn't also a completely new game but was built off of the first game, which had taken four years on its own to develop.
Except this analogy doesn't work, because BL is an EA game and not being a complete game is a part of that. It's mostly there, but these features are being added throughout development. BL was never meant to be a totally complete game at the EA launch.
Well, what meaningful changes would there need to be made? The core of the game is there, all that is really left is adding features onto it, and that's what TW has been doing. Bug fixes keep coming, siege AI is being worked on, and features are being added.
Well, there will always be issues with games. TW is working on getting promised features into the game and ironing out the major bugs.
And I am. I am perfectly content to wait for the game. This isn't me just waiting for what TW gives me as a loyal customer, but from the simple fact that there are other games to play. I love M&B, but I also love other games. BL will be here when I want to play it, so in the meantime, I am completely fine with waiting for the game to be complete.
And there isn't just a commonly accepted amount of time for a game to take place in development, just look at Halo 5, or any other longly awaited game. Games take time to develop, and not all development cycles are pristine.
Genuinely isn't a scam... okay, some of it is like the cost for in-game ships, but that isn't what makes it a scam. There is a playable game for people to enjoy that is still being worked on, so I don't really count it as a scam. If you want a good example for my definition of a definite scam, look at Starforge or Reign of Kings. I also don't really think it shows incompetence, only that development has been troublesome. But hey, if you want to call the devs incompetent on their forum go right ahead, you can reap the whirlwind.
Yeah, I really don't think this thread has done that. Given the last few pages of just theorizing about the "soft power of M&B", I don't think the devs will take this thread seriously. Given that Mexxico's post was on page six out of 80, and this thread has only devolved, any credibility this thread had is long gone. What you attempted to do with this thread isn't working, and you only really have yourself to blame. I'm not saying I'm perfect, I'm not, but the way that you have conducted yourself on this thread really isn't going to make TW want to listen to you. I mean, bit of a hypothesis here, but I mean I wouldn't want to listen to someone's feedback after they call me incompetent.
If I had to guess at what TW thinks about this thread, they have yet to mute it for pure entertainment value.
Paradoxically, he's still hoping https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...istent-kingdoms-successor.403981/post-9739302
Because even the game's harshest critics still want it to end up as good game. They paid for it, after all.
Still, that's half the time of Bannerlord, with a much smaller studio.
Sure, I agree with that, my point is that the EA should have taken place back in 2012, not 2021.
Well in terms of SP the sieges and such are the most important things. Honestly I will agree that BL is in a better state than I imagined when I began this thread, partially because of your own points you've made. Still, I think the game is lacking in a lot of departments.
Eh, that's true. Nothing's ever perfect.
I'm not disputing that, after all I am playing Age of Empires III as I type this response. I also play HOI and EU4, of course, with M&B being my favorite, I would very much like it to be playable, specifically in multiplayer, yesterday. I suppose I don't have any choice but to wait, but if I can do anything that might ever so slightly push that, then I'll be happy.
I wouldn't say there's a generally accepted amount of time, but you kind of know when a wait is "too long", or, in cases like Rome 2, "too short".
Eh, entirely possible. Either way, the other points still stand in why I choose to continue posting on the thread, and I think others enjoy those reasons as well. I think we have come to a reasonable understanding (you and me specifically) in a sort of "common ground" of what we want, which, at the end of the day, while we disagree about the specifics, at least we can agree that we want Bannerlord to be good?
He has, and trust me...he agrees with everything lmao. He's more pissed off than I am.I hope whoever gifted @Roy1012 Bannerlord hasn't read how much he's complained about their present.
Yeah, it just shows that there are long times to be expected. Also, the alpha for M&B 1 was posted to TW's website as early as 2004, so it was likely in development for longer. So, the length of BL's development really isn't shocking. And it isn't as if TW was massive for the entirety of the development of BL, the size of their staff grew throughout their production.
Yeah, that was never going to happen. And what's the point of that point? Again, it only comes off as shaming the developers for taking so long. BL had a troubled development cycle. Furthermore, that expectation is entirely impossible. Firstly, TW was working on other projects, Fire and Sword released in 2011 and VC in 2014, meaning that there was no way for TW to focus entirely on BL, which was necessary since they were developing a new engine. There is no way where BL would have ever been released in EA form in 2012.
Which I will also agree with. There are things that I want in the game, with some expansion to interactions with nobles being chief among them.
Yeah, I know it can suck to wait, especially for the MP side of the game which needs a lot more work, but I also don't think that pushing TW will do anything. Best case scenario, you push them to get stuff out faster and because it came out faster it is a lot buggier than it should be. Worst case, well, they just don't listen, which I think actually makes it the best outcome.
Yeah, and I do think a lot of that comes from them announcing it in 2012. If they even waited until 2016 it would be a lot better for the community.
Yeah, I can agree on that. The reason why I keep posting in this thread even after I tell myself that I won't is that I see just bad talking points that come up that, when left unchallenged, kinda just fall to confirmation bias. To be honest, it also annoys me somewhat on a personal level. I've been burned by a lot of games series that I hold near and dear to my heart, Dawn of War, Arma, and Just Cause being the main three, so when I see something that is progressing at a decent rate, or what I see as a decent rate, and I see the hate that the community is giving TW it kinda hurts me a little on the inside when I don't really think the situation is as bad as people make it out to be. We all love M&B, so I'd rather if the community conversation wasn't as riled up as it is now. I'm not saying that you can't criticize TW, you totally can and totally should, but a lot of this stuff doesn't really come across as criticism.
Also, if you want a good idea of what I think is a proper scam, look at what's going on with Ultimate Admiral: Dreadnoughts. Ngl, it might actually make you thank TW for their communication. It is that bad.
I keep seeing this argument. It's false. WFaS, VC and NW were all developed by third parties. All TW had to do was sometimes to make changes to the engine to accommodate new features and to market and sell those expansions.
Even the console ports were developed by a contractor.
So all the TW devs had to do is to make Bannerlord and leave a few poor souls to maintain Warband and work with the expansion developers. That's one excuse less and there are really no good excuses to justify the length of development - there are a few legitimate ones, but they don't add up to that many years. It should have taken them five years tops and that's an industry estimate for a complex game with a proprietary engine.
My mistake.
Yeah, I also don’t really care for the whole “it should have release years ago” argument. It didn’t, and that’s all that matters. It clearly wasn’t ready in 2016, because it still needs work now in 2021. It should release when it is ready, not when the fans want it. If it was ready in 2016, it would have released in 2016.
There is another lesson here about DLCs and expansions that Taleworlds will hopefully apply in the future.
Taleworlds devs are by now in a defensive mode where features are cut and new ideas rejected, which is normal if they want to formally release the game.
This also means they lack the creativity and the drive to create interesting DLCs and those are best outsourced to third parties with fresh ideas and motivation, which could be modder groups or small studios that have done similar work in the past and are familiar with the game.
I'm sure that Taleworlds are technically able to develop, for example, Another Faction DLC, but it will be more of the unexciting same. It's better if they all move to something completely new, like their space game, and leave a skeleton crew to fix bugs and improve performance.
Taleworlds devs are by now in a defensive mode where features are cut and new ideas rejected, which is normal if they want to formally release the game.
This also means they lack the creativity and the drive to create interesting DLCs and those are best outsourced to third parties with fresh ideas and motivation, which could be modder groups or small studios that have done similar work in the past and are familiar with the game.
I'm sure that Taleworlds are technically able to develop, for example, Another Faction DLC, but it will be more of the unexciting same. It's better if they all move to something completely new, like their space game, and leave a skeleton crew to fix bugs and improve performance.
- Status
Similar threads
