Bannerlord was a grift

Users who are viewing this thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

AndrewArt

Squire
I understand that (as mexxico said) it is difficult to cut back on expectations and hype. This makes TW's actions understandable. But this doesn't mean we need to excuse them. It is like somebody running a red traffic light because he was late to work and lying to the police officer about it. It is understandable, but he still ran the light and will get his ticket.

Watch some of this judge. Believe it or not, some judges can be human and understanding, and can excuse or reduce tickets. Not everything has to be punishing, we can also be understanding. For petty crimes and mistakes, and depending on circumstances, there can be positive outcomes and forgiveness. Watch some positive material like this and life won't look so grim anymore. Also, I wonder if you had very strict and authoritative parents. This kind of mindset you're showing couldn't have just been born out of thin air. Might want to reflect on that. It's not a healthy one for this particular case, where a developer explains to you as humanly as possible some very understandable things, but you're still pushing for "not excusing them..." Why not excuse them? World could do with a little bit more forgiveness and understanding. There are many hardships in life, there is no reason to make the lives of others even harsher.
 

Life_Erikson

Master Knight
M&BWBNWVC

Watch some of this judge. Believe it or not, some judges can be human and understanding, and can excuse or reduce tickets. Not everything has to be punishing, we can also be understanding. For petty crimes and mistakes, and depending on circumstances, there can be positive outcomes and forgiveness. Watch some positive material like this and life won't look so grim anymore. Also, I wonder if you had very strict and authoritative parents. This kind of mindset you're showing couldn't have just been born out of thin air. Might want to reflect on that. It's not a healthy one for this particular case, where a developer explains to you as humanly as possible some very understandable things, but you're still pushing for "not excusing them..." Why not excuse them? World could do with a little bit more forgiveness and understanding. There are many hardships in life, there is no reason to make the lives of others even harsher.
You are trolling right? If so hats off to you.
 

Fate

Veteran
Why not excuse them?
Well with the traffic light analogy people can literally die so regardless how "understandable" or relatable the reason is, it's still not without punishment as it still has (or had the potential of) negative affects to others. Excusing others misdeeds sets a precedent. They're late to work this time and run a red so we let them go because the "world should be more positive". They do it again since it often doesn't have consequences and they are yet again late for work. This time they kill a mother and her children.

This is obviously an extreme example as I was just going with the previous analogy. This issue here is TW mismanagement has negatively affected their clients and it doesn't need to be excused, it needs to be fixed. The reasoning is fairly irrelevant as there is no excuse for how poor their communication has been. I personally don't blame the developers and wouldn't care that its taken longer if the communication was there. But it hasn't been and on top of that it looks like this will be missing loads of features they lead us to expect. There isn't an excuse for simply not caring about your customers

I know he mentioned other reasons, but to hit on one; as a developer myself, development is one of the easiest jobs to still do effectively during a pandemic
 
Last edited:

AndrewArt

Squire
Well with the traffic light analogy people can literally die so regardless how "understandable" or relatable the reason is, it's still not without punishment as it still has (or had the potential of) negative affects to others. Excusing others misdeeds sets a precedent. They're late to work this time and run a red so we let them go because the "world should be more positive". They do it again since it often doesn't have consequences and they are yet again late for work. This time they kill a mother and her children.

This is obviously an extreme example as I was just going with the previous analogy. This issue here is TW mismanagement has negatively affected their clients and it doesn't need to be excused, it needs to be fixed. The reasoning is fairly irrelevant as there is no excuse for how poor their communication has been. I personally don't blame the developers and wouldn't care that its taken longer if the communication was there. But it hasn't been and on top of that it looks like this will be missing loads of features they lead us to expect. There isn't an excuse for simply not caring about your customers

I know he mentioned other reasons, but to hit on one; as a developer myself, development is one of the easiest jobs to still do effectively during a pandemic
For your first point, I would argue that punishments and the law system isn't really working as intended. People are repeat offenders quite often after being punished, which means the punishment isn't working. There is also another judge that apparently has a greater effect through his 'punishments', with only 10% reoffense rate (just as an idea)
(
).
The reason is that he is trying to actually teach people who make mistakes that what they did is bad through appropriate activities relevant to what they did. So I would agree with you fully on that if the law system and punishments actually worked the way they're supposed to.

"The latest [Government study of recidivism] reported that 83% of state prisoners were arrested at some point in the 9 years following their release. A large majority of those were arrested within the first 3 years, and more than 50% get rearrested within the first year." So as you see the effect of the classic punishments (eh, just throw them into jail, they'll learn) that are being applied currently can be minimal at best. Just imagine you're a drunk driver because of depression or financial problems. Then you also get a ticket or jail time. Will that stop your future drunk driving? You are punishing a person that already is seeing life as a punishment. Instead of that the person needs rehabilitation and help... So yeah until the law actually wants to change people into functional members of society instead of this temporary band-aid solution I'll say it's an incomplete, inefficient system, and with or without its punishments crimes will still be happening.

About the TW communication, it's getting tons better. They do care about their customers, which is why you're seeing the efforts in their communication right now and that they're still updating the game. And mexxico clearly explained why it hasn't been "easiest". They have a friendly work environment and he would have preferred to be face to face and discussing ideas, so clearly he perceives the situation (pandemic) as an obstacle, even though you yourself had a different experience it doesn't mean everybody has the same experience as you. For example, as an introverted student, I too found it beneficial for me to study at home. But my colleagues said that their experience was pretty bad and tiring and they would have preferred seeing each other physically. It all depends on the person. Also don't forget he mentioned the political issues stressing them out as well. I think he explained it fairly well so I don't think I have to explain it again.
 

Life_Erikson

Master Knight
M&BWBNWVC
Disagreeing with someone else in a civilized manner on a civilized discussion = trolling apparently.

One of the dumbest things I've seen but hey, you do you.
Berating somebody like he is a little child = civilized discussion apparently.

Calling somebody dumb whilst arguing for civilized discussion. The hypocrits are rampant today.
 

bonerstorm

Veteran
A reply to all those who complain: It's a free world and a free market, if you think you can create a better game and do a better job, go for it...
I literally write right-wing propaganda for a living. That's my actual full-time job. I've been in free-market political activism for over half my life.

But I absolutely cannot fathom the brain damage it takes to believe that customers do not have a moral right to complain when a corporation does not meet their reasonable expectations.

If I go to a 4-star restaurant and order filet mignon, I don't expect it to be flawless. But I do expect them to serve me filet mignon instead of hamburger. If they serve me a hamburger, I'm going to ask for a refund + complain + never go to that restaurant again. If it's a restaurant I've been to for years, I will speak to the chef and give detailed, constructive feedback to fix their menu so they can keep my business.

What I just described in the preceding paragraph is the free market. The entire point of Early Access - according to TW - was to get community feedback. There is no moral right of corporations to serve their customers inferior products and then expect positive feedback + repeat business.
Time to start a lawsuit, then. Good luck with that. Given how certain you sound it'd be a slam dunk, no?
"Is it actionable in court?" is not by any means a reasonable moral barometer. As someone with a fair amount of harsh experience in low-stakes civil litigation, I can tell you for a fact that most lawyers will not take a case to help anyone recover less than $5,000 in damages. Good lawyers won't get out of bed for less than $10-$20k.

Fun example: an old landlord of mine clearly breached a contract and stole about $3k from me. No lawyers would take my case so I studied the law, argued it myself and won. The guy then kept appealing it until he won, at which point I hired a real lawyer (who told me straight-up he was only taking the case because it was clearly unjust). We appealed to the state supreme court and they refused to take it despite flagrant errors of law - so all in all I ended up losing $30k in my failed quest to recover $3k.

But, conversely, people are well within their rights to call BL a scam or a grift - even if they may be incorrect. It's extremely difficult to sue someone for breach of contract, but it's even more difficult to sue customers for libel or defamation of a corporation.
 

bonerstorm

Veteran
Also thank you all for your all support you give. TW is a lucky company which have really devoted fans. I know why you criticize much. You see TW from your family or like a friend you know for long time and you want us to be successful and use all potential game has.
Thank you so much for taking the time to say all this. It really means a lot.

For my part: I know that I am often very negative, but you are absolutely right: it's because I want this game to be successful. I hope that the time you take for yourself is restful and helpful. I've had a very good experience with you in particular and I hope to be able to support your work in the future.
Here problem is about communication of top and players. There can be too much suggestions and collecting which are important can be hard so best solution is time to time top to come here and read forums communicate with players.
Absolutely agreed. I've been saying for a while: TW doesn't have a development or tech problem - TW has a communication problem.

What is necessary is a complete revamp of the way TW sends information to and receives feedback from the community. Everything else is window dressing.

Your communication in particular has always been awesome. If the rest of the TW team took your relationship with the community as a model, then this negativity situation wouldn't be a thing. I don't mean to guilt trip you about this, but I suspect that a lot of the anguish in the fanbase is a direct result of the news that you're leaving. We're all hoping to see some of your legacy preserved at the company even after you go.
 

mexxico

Sergeant Knight
Absolutely agreed. I've been saying for a while: TW doesn't have a development or tech problem - TW has a communication problem.

I want to underline something. @Dejan always collects your suggestions and prepare documents and they are discussed internal monthly. He is doing his best for this. However this is not same thing top to come here read forums discuss with players and understand situations deeply. We are discussing each suggestion 1-2 at most 5 minutes in these suggestion meetings (because there are too much suggestions and time is limited, fe if there are 50 suggestions and if each is discussed 5 mins it makes 250 min - 4 hours meeting which is already long and makes participants mentally tired) and I think this is not enough to understand problems / suggestions deeply and this is not enough why that particular suggestion is suggested. For example when you open forum page of a suggestion and read all comments and join discussion and spend some time then you can understand situation better. Even current suggestion transferring way is not enough / sufficent it is of course better than doing nothing.

@Sundeki unfortunately I do not know how things are going in multiplayer side. So I cannot answer that question.

By the way reasons I wrote yesterday are not of course acceptable excuses for slow development. I only wanted to give you some information for you to evaluate situation. As customers you have power to change market as you wish in future. I advice you to watch gameplay videos collect more information from reliable editors / streamers before buying / supporting a game. Even you trust a company or game developer you should first collect enough information before spending money on it's product. People / companies can change. Even you are very rich and spent money is nothing for you. If companies earn easy money then they do not force themselves to create better products. Only good products which deserved your money / support should earn money and rise in gaming industry.
 
Last edited:
I want to underline something. @Dejan always collects your suggestions and prepare documents and they are discussed internal monthly. He is doing his best for this. However this is not same thing top to come here read forums discuss with players and understand situations deeply. We are discussing each suggestion 1-2 at most 5 minutes in these suggestion meetings (because there are too much suggestions and time is limited) and I think this is not enough to understand problems / suggestions deeply and this is not enough why that particular suggestion is suggested. For example when you open forum page of a suggestion and read all comments and join discussion and spend some time then you can understand situation better. Even current suggestion transferring way is not enough / sufficent it is of course better than doing nothing.

@Sundeki unfortunately I do not know how things are going in multiplayer side. So I cannot answer that question.

By the way reasons I wrote yesterday are not of course acceptable excuses for slow development. I only wanted to give you some information for you to evaluate situation. As customers you have power to change market as you wish in future. I advice you to watch gameplay videos collect more information from reliable editors / streamers before buying / supporting a game in future. Even you trust that company or game developer you should first collect enough information before spending money on it's product. People / companies can change. Even you are very rich and spent money is nothing for you. If companies earn easy money then they do not force themselves to create better products. Only good products which deserved your money / support should earn money and rise in gaming industry.
Bless your heart Mexxico. Thank you for your time.
 

Alrav23

Recruit
Request a refund. File a lawsuit. Majority of the EA has been spent developing new paid DLC's, they stated the game was nearly finished 'after' they whaled in 4 million copies sold.
 

Maelstrom8

Sergeant
WBWF&SNW
Berating somebody like he is a little child = civilized discussion apparently.

Calling somebody dumb whilst arguing for civilized discussion. The hypocrits are rampant today.

I said your post was dumb, not you, but hey I don't blame you for misunderstanding me (as you did the other guy). Also, I can't really agree that there are an influx of "hypocrits" recently. If anything, there is an increase of people who just always got something to say, and as a result that brings forth arguments that aren't exactly worthwhile :grin:
 
Last edited:

bishey

Recruit
Request a refund. File a lawsuit. Majority of the EA has been spent developing new paid DLC's, they stated the game was nearly finished 'after' they whaled in 4 million copies sold.
How? We saw one single elephant model with the name DLC, 15 months after release. But we had hundreds of patches with thousands of fixes and new features in them. Anybody who says Bannerlord hasn't improved since EA launch should be ignored because the amount of mental gymnastics required to reach that conclusion is baffling. You either lack simple cognitive skills or you are lying maliciously to further an agenda. Which is it?
 

Fate

Veteran
For your first point, I would argue that punishments and the law system isn't really working as intended. People are repeat offenders quite often after being punished, which means the punishment isn't working. There is also another judge that apparently has a greater effect through his 'punishments', with only 10% reoffense rate (just as an idea)
(
).
The reason is that he is trying to actually teach people who make mistakes that what they did is bad through appropriate activities relevant to what they did. So I would agree with you fully on that if the law system and punishments actually worked the way they're supposed to.

"The latest [Government study of recidivism] reported that 83% of state prisoners were arrested at some point in the 9 years following their release. A large majority of those were arrested within the first 3 years, and more than 50% get rearrested within the first year." So as you see the effect of the classic punishments (eh, just throw them into jail, they'll learn) that are being applied currently can be minimal at best. Just imagine you're a drunk driver because of depression or financial problems. Then you also get a ticket or jail time. Will that stop your future drunk driving? You are punishing a person that already is seeing life as a punishment. Instead of that the person needs rehabilitation and help... So yeah until the law actually wants to change people into functional members of society instead of this temporary band-aid solution I'll say it's an incomplete, inefficient system, and with or without its punishments crimes will still be happening.

About the TW communication, it's getting tons better. They do care about their customers, which is why you're seeing the efforts in their communication right now and that they're still updating the game. And mexxico clearly explained why it hasn't been "easiest". They have a friendly work environment and he would have preferred to be face to face and discussing ideas, so clearly he perceives the situation (pandemic) as an obstacle, even though you yourself had a different experience it doesn't mean everybody has the same experience as you. For example, as an introverted student, I too found it beneficial for me to study at home. But my colleagues said that their experience was pretty bad and tiring and they would have preferred seeing each other physically. It all depends on the person. Also don't forget he mentioned the political issues stressing them out as well. I think he explained it fairly well so I don't think I have to explain it again.
I understand what you're saying and by "punishments" I don't necessarily mean jailtime or tickets. I completely agree with community service relative to the offense to try help them understand the affects of their actions or rehab to help them overcome an addition. I just don't agree with letting it go like it didn't happen. I don't believe the U.S's system is currently perfect or even good. I do get a lot harsher with "punishments" though when it comes to it costing someone's life. I think for the most part we agree, I might just be a bit less forgiving than you

@mexxico and @Dejan and some others (apologies for not listing everyone communicating) care, but it's clear TW management does not. I think too often when TW is complained about people take it as we are targeting these individuals. I 100% am not and honestly think they are great, theres only so much they personally can do especially when being limited by management. I know how tough it can be trying to develop and communicate when management stifles it or has a "vision" literally no one else has or wants for the project. I don't blame any of them for the slow progression or the lack of communication, I blame TW management as should others.

I do need to actively work on not holding others to my standards or comparing how they handle a situation to how I have in the past. We are all different people and different situations affect us differently. You are right and this is a problem I have I need to be more aware of in the future
 

bonerstorm

Veteran
I want to underline something. @Dejan always collects your suggestions and prepare documents and they are discussed internal monthly. He is doing his best for this. However this is not same thing top to come here read forums discuss with players and understand situations deeply. We are discussing each suggestion 1-2 at most 5 minutes in these suggestion meetings (because there are too much suggestions and time is limited) and I think this is not enough to understand problems / suggestions deeply and this is not enough why that particular suggestion is suggested. For example when you open forum page of a suggestion and read all comments and join discussion and spend some time then you can understand situation better. Even current suggestion transferring way is not enough / sufficent it is of course better than doing nothing.
YES!

Handling suggestions on an ad hoc basis is not an efficient use of time and it can result in situations that are out of step with the desires of the broader community. For instance, there was a recent discussion where a number of longtime fans were frustrated that thrown weapons were apparently nerfed across all modules in response to a few complaints in the Skirmish community that javelins were OP.

I can't vouch that this particular characterization of the situation is accurate (and wouldn't be surprised if it was wrong), but the perception among the fans is that changes are made in a haphazard manner that frequently misses the community consensus on what should be a priority.

@Dejan I strongly suggest that you consider regularly using timed polls to capture the mood of the community + what suggestions are a priority to us + what priority various suggestions should take. I would not be surprised if a number of ad hoc suggestions that may be well received by the TW team but would in fact be opposed by the vast majority of the player base - as I described above.

If you allow fans to make a real impact on the overarching discussion - even if some of their suggestions can't be prioritized logistically - you'll help channel our frustration into something productive and communicate our hopes more effectively. It would also provide an incentive for the players hanging out in Reddit or Steam boards to start engaging in the forums so their voices could be heard too.

Another thing that would be IMMENSELY helpful - though it may sound a little crazy - would be if we could vote to elect Fan Representatives so that respected community members could have a direct line of communication to the TW team.

I know that I would personally rest easy if I knew that members like @Terco_Viejo and @Philozoraptor and @Kentucky 『 HEIGUI 』 James and @Bloc and @Jance were recognized as representative voices of the community. If I'm overestimating their popularity in the fanbase, then a poll would absolutely sort that out.

I'm going to put the details backing up my assertions under a spoiler tag since they're irrelevant if you take my points at face value:

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, there have been many polls dropped by fans in the forum (myself included) where roughly 85-90% of fans want buffs to spears and to restore the "non-silly" infantry AI that can deal with cavalry charges. There are others where 70% of fans want a complete revamp of the mass combat system to make it more realistic. Also 88-94% of the fans want player control of unit weapon use - which is currently hard-coded into the AI and unmoddable. 95% of fans want a "focus fire" command for ranged troops. To say nothing of how 18.1% of fans "still have hope in TW."

Speaking personally, I will not play this game again until spearmen in shieldwalls are viable. As it stands, spearmen are the worst melee units - even against cavalry - and loose formation is always the best defensive tactic because of collision/physics/AI issues... which is very immersion-breaking to anyone with an understanding of military history. Shieldwalls were an integral part of medieval warfare (which is why so many fans were happy to see them implemented in WB Floris and VC) and it's very frustrating that MB doesn't attempt to simulate them.

I remember distinctly how frustrated many of us were when the first few patches after EA release didn't capture the prevailing complaints in the forum. The fact that nerfs were applied to economic systems like workshops/caravans and xp gain in autobattle/arena felt like insults because none of us had seen complaints about exploits but all of us had seen complaints about armor, siege AI and unit formations. The following year of minor +1/-1 tweaks to things like armor or weapon performance was aggravating when - for instance - a consistent complaint has been that armor is underpowered across-the-board.

Aside from bugs and unimplemented features, there are genuine concerns in the fanbase that TW's vision of what BL should look like is fundamentally different from ours. It sounds like most fans want a game that is moderately realistic but geared towards fun that rewards smart tactics and allows players to make a significant impact on the game world through dedicated effort.

However, it feels like TW's vision is more along the lines of an MMO than an immersive RPG: it feels like situations where AI lords and bandit hideouts respawn with extreme speed after destruction are intentional introductions of grind into the game so the player will never get bored from "having nothing to do". Whether or not this is the intention, one of the consistent points cited by fans complaining that BL has no "soul" is that the constant barrage of "things to do" make it feel like the player has no impact on the gameworld at all without relentless grinding. This is especially the case where there does not appear to be any way for the player to reduce the linear growth of bandit parties in the lategame - except by constantly farming them (which gets extremely boring).

Another point in the "no soul" criticism is how gaming lord relationship was a critical part of Warband but is virtually absent in BL. Nearly all of the intrigues of steadily increasing or decreasing relation with allies/spouses/rivals/lieges has been abstracted into the Influence and persuasion minigame mechanics - which feel flat and boring.

Then there's my personal bete noir: I am extremely frustrated that the leveling mechanics for personality traits and noncombat skills (which are integral parts of the already-flat persuasion minigame) are grindy and kind of broken. For instance, the only way to level Calculating to 1 is to convince FIFTY AI clans to join your faction. Also, in order to level Roguery to 275, the player must kill 1.2 million peasants or annihilate 20,000 caravans. I really can't understand the apparent lack of consideration for the sheer staggering scale of grind it takes to level most skills to a workable level and the somewhat-dismissive attitude of TW to issues like this are a serious source of fan frustration.

Most RPG fans want RPG features and it's very disheartening to see large holes in noncombat RPG elements consistently put on the backburner in favor of focusing on minor tweaks to combat mechanics. It was also depressing to watch the only mod to deal with personality issues be abandoned by its creator because it's apparently impossible to mod personality XP gain.
 

Ser Jon

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
You can call it a scam. It's ok to call it a scam because it is.

It's impossible to argue when you remember they said "it's almost finished" prior to EA release. I don't know...maybe they just didn't understand the words they were using? :neutral:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom