Bannerlord was a grift

[Life_Erikson]

I started playing M&B when the original game was still in development, I played a ton of mods and I absolutely love Bannerlord. The combat feels so much more fluid, the animations feel more realistic, the graphics are a joy and the horses zooom like never before. The depth of immersion is indeed very lacking, but this was the case in Warband, even with most of the great mods. I find I can play Bannerlord for much longer before I get bored because the combat is much more exciting, and ultimately the combat has always been the core of the game.
I have been very disappointed with the lack of features that were shown before release of early access and I'm not particularly hopeful for the future of this game but I don't regret buying it. Doubt I'll purchase the elephant DLC though.

I guess if you play M&B soley for the combat one could argue that BL is better. But what do you think about how armor works in BL? Ranged vs. melee? Combat on horseback? All of these bother me so much that I can't enjoy the combat in BL at the moment even though it could be argued that WB's is inferior.

 

[Pentagathoos]

Yeah range is pretty OP but it was in warband too, get yourself a party of Vaegir Marksmen and shred everything. Armor does suck in Bannerlord, particularly in the most recent beta branches as athletics has been nerfed so much that the tiny damage reduction isn't worth the cost to movement speed on foot. I don't see what's wrong with combat on horseback, it's hella fun. It is slightly harder to swipe down at infantry if that's what you mean?

 

[AndrewArt]

Thank you @RalliX , this is really close what we had experienced.

I will try to write something about these topics, its hard to tell these complex topics with my weak English but will try sorry for grammer mistakes or wrong wordings.

I can say that anybody at top are not focused on getting more money with giving players something not good. Thats why development took so much time. I understand your frustrations. However hype was always ready to rise. Its hard to slow it down or reduce. Even now sometimes we talk about a basic feature in forum (fe. war reasons) then there become big expectations. Then I have to write "please do not expect something big - it is not game changer" to slow down expectations. I cannot defend weak communication of managers but they are not scammers. Armagan is a good person I do not know why he does not prefer communication during EA but he is not a scammer, he is well educated and trustful person which are rare to find around these days. I understand your situation when you cannot see enough communication from him I also feel same you become like you lost one of your closest friends. I am not happy with this direction and I also criticized even at forum but he definately does not focus on getting more money then giving a better product to players. However I want to underline that I really do not understand or can defend halting his communication with players probably no time remains after company grows.

Actually money is something meaningless after some point. Reputation is more important. Even 1M$ is enough for living in good conditions in all your life without working. He can take maybe 10x of this money after Warband's success and can live happily ever. It is hard to create a product which will make end users mostly happy, you should always think about your project day and night and you should spend your life for it even you should not spend enough time with your family. Otherwise it can be hard to understand what players want or need perfectly. In Warband he communicated players much even day and night and this yield with a higher ratio of end user happiness. However it is easy to do if you are indie company and if you have lots of energy and ambition. After company grows you need to deal lots of other boring stuff so time remained to player communication reduces. This can reduce gameplay. This can reduce happiness of community. That's why I also want to take some rest first and create a small indie company later and will try to focus on smaller projects with focusing on perfect gameplay.

Actually we had several unlucky situations in last 10 years. For example we are living in a country which has really beautiful climate and geography and cultural mixture however it is not managed by good people. We had even coup in 2015, we had gezi resistance in 2013 which most of our devs also attended. All these was also fault of government then government used that coup to increase pressure over opponent press members or politicans. So we devs always think about what should we do in future because justice system and freedom of press and education systems went worse in last 20 years here. While coding here I always think also how things would be sorted out. I do not want to leave my country to bad politicans we want to save here from them. In short our brains are not relaxed and its hard to focus on projects. At least mine but I believe there are many others. Democracy is a good system but if politicians controls also media it is so easy to manupilate most of country and get needed votes at elections. So all young educated generation here is trying to go abroad and save themselves and their next generations. My friends at same college are 90% at abroad currently. So quality of all products also human quality reduces. This is something really bad for TW also. Because it will be more and more hard to find quality devs if Turkey cannot save itself from current government.

Also Covid-19 effected us badly too imo. Of course it increased sales (timing of EA release was only a luck, EA release date was determined before Covid outbreak) however I prefer working in office all together with other devs. Discussing game features face to face is always better.

In short I reject Bannerlord is a grift. TW is not a company trying to sell players scam. However in current direction and conditions it will be hard to create perfect projects in future - this is only guess. Thats why I want to create a new way to myself also. There are more reasons which I cannot tell public ofc, not everything was perfect, I also had lots of disapointments - had lots of days with low morale. However just note that managers are not bad people or scammers. After college finished at 2008 I worked for bad people before TW so I know how they are like. At the end of first year I could not continue that and past TW because most important thing is creating projects with people you trust and believe and have similar importances / characteristic. There are too many rich but bad people in world and they use potential / clever / educated / ambitious people to rise more. Its frustrating to work for these people. TW was not a place like that. We worked here to rise good people and they rised and I am happy to see this.

Also thank you all for your all support you give. TW is a lucky company which have really devoted fans. I know why you criticize much. You see TW from your family and you want us to be successful and use all potential game has.

this was a really good post... really hit on my heart strings with this one about the hardships you have faced and are facing.

Several good points have been presented. Number 1 is what I also been saying, in no way a game that took so long to develop is a scam. Scams are what the triple AAA companies do when year after year they release copy-pasted lazy money-grabbing products. I would think it was common sense that Bannerlord did not fit in this category, but people aren't the best at perceiving that.

2) The point you made about money is also absolutely true. Even if I am not rich, I can totally see in rich people's experiences and it makes the most sense that after a certain point money is insignificant. That is why many good people that are also successful say "money does not bring happiness", because it literally doesn't bring anything new into your life after a certain point and you have needs that need to be fulfilled that are above monetary reaches.

3) Thank you again for your transparency and telling it how it is. Again, reading all of these words really hit me emotionally. I appreciate the humanity you are showing, and I hope other people on the forum can have the same impression...

 

[Life_Erikson]

However hype was always ready to rise. Its hard to slow it down or reduce. Even now sometimes we talk about a basic feature in forum (fe. war reasons) then there become big expectations. Then I have to write "please do not expect something big - it is not game changer" to slow down expectations. I cannot defend weak communication of managers but they are not scammers.

Thank you very much for the reply mexxico. It is good to hear that there is no ill intent. And whilst criticism may be rough around here, please don't take it personal.

But the quote above bothered me a bit. Whilst there is definitively a lot of truth to that, I think it doesn't quite fit.
Whilst there is a lot of people who have overhyped expectations most of the old WB veterans don't really demand overly complex stuff. What we want is simple mechanics with big effect.
A good exemple for that is the ability direct lords to go to a certain place to do certain stuff. The basics of that feature ("I have a plan follow me.") was already in WB, the rest of it was in the diplomacy mod (Go to X, flee / attack / defend).

When most of the stuff the community desperately wants was already in WB or in WB mods and the statements we get from developers is: "too complex" one has to have either doubt in the developement competency or in the vision of the management of the game. One is to blame here. I don't know which one but there is no doubt for me.

 

[mexxico]

Thank you very much for the reply mexxico. It is good to hear that there is no ill intent. And whilst criticism may be rough around here, please don't take it personal.

But the quote above bothered me a bit. Whilst there is definitively a lot of truth to that, I think it doesn't quite fit.
Whilst there is a lot of people who have overhyped expectations most of the old WB veterans don't really demand overly complex stuff. What we want is simple mechanics with big effect.
A good exemple for that is the ability direct lords to go to a certain place to do certain stuff. The basics of that feature ("I have a plan follow me.") was already in WB, the rest of it was in the diplomacy mod (Go to X, flee / attack / defend).

When most of the stuff the community desperately wants was already in WB or in WB mods and the statements we get from developers is: "too complex" one has to have either doubt in the developement competency or in the vision of the management of the game. One is to blame here. I don't know which one but there is no doubt for me.

Follow me is already at game. You can call a lord and form a 2 lord party army by spending some influence. Of course currently it is less immersive (which is at army window) maybe it can be good to add one line "follow me" dialog even same results will happen (army creating).

Other feature you mentioned can be easily added as you said, you can give orders to your lords like "go raid there" "form an army and go siege there" by again spending influence. I hope in future by time these will be added. I see no downsides for adding these. Will suggest them internal.

Here problem is about communication of top and players. There can be too much suggestions and collecting which are important can be hard so best solution is time to time top to come here and read forums communicate with players.

 

[Life_Erikson]

Follow me is already at game. You can call a lord and form a 2 lord party army by spending some influence. Of course currently it is less immersive (which is at army window) maybe it can be good to add one line "follow me" dialog even same results will happen (army creating).

Other feature you mentioned can be easily added, you can give orders to your lords like "go raid there" "form an army and go siege there" by again spending influence. I hope in future these will be added. I see no downsides for adding these. As mentioned "better communication" will result with these easy features to be added in future.

That would be great!
Diplomacy had it so that the player speech skill and his reputation with the lord would define the outcome (BL could use influence in addition to that if the lord doesn't agree or to help him agree).
Also there were consequences if the outcoming action would be successful or not. If yes -> rep. with the lord increases, if no it decreases.
I think there are plenty of people who like these immersive and tactical options.

 

[Bjorn The Dead]

My friends at same college are 90% at abroad currently.

Most profitable investment for a government its people but our politicians are dump enough not to see that.

I wish you all the best mexxico. I hope leaving company does not mean you won't visit TW forum. It was really good to know you during EA.

 

[Ulfhedinn_]

Thank you @RalliX , this is really close what we had experienced.

I will try to write something about these topics, its hard to tell these complex topics with my weak English but will try sorry for grammer mistakes or wrong wordings.

I can say that anybody at top are not focused on getting more money with giving players something not good. Thats why development took so much time. I understand your frustrations. However hype was always ready to rise. Its hard to slow it down or reduce. Even now sometimes we talk about a basic feature in forum (fe. war reasons) then there become big expectations. Then I have to write "please do not expect something big - it is not game changer" to slow down expectations. I cannot defend weak communication of managers but they are not scammers. Armagan is a good person I do not know why he does not prefer communication during EA but he is not a scammer, he is well educated and trustful person which are rare to find around these days. I understand your situation when you cannot see enough communication from him I also feel same you become like you lost one of your closest friends. I am not happy with this direction and I also criticized even at forum but he definately does not focus on getting more money then giving a better product to players. However I want to underline that I really do not understand or can defend halting his communication with players probably no time remains after company grows.

Money is something meaningless after some point. Reputation is more important. Even 1M$ is enough for living in good conditions in all your life without working. He can take maybe 10x of this money after Warband's success and can live happily ever. It is hard to create a product which will make end users mostly happy, you should always think about your project day and night and you should spend your life for it even you should not spend enough time with your family. Otherwise it can be hard to understand what players want or need perfectly. In Warband he communicated players much even day and night and this yield with a higher ratio of end user happiness. However it is easy to do if you are indie company and if you have lots of energy and ambition. After company grows you need to deal lots of other boring stuff so time remained to player communication reduces. This can reduce gameplay. This can reduce happiness of community. In that point you should give some of your power to others and split responsibilities - however this is not done.

After all these points that's why I also want to take some long rest first (maybe half / one year) get away from computer and spend time on different hobbies free my mind (we are coming to life once, money is less important - life is more important) then create a small indie company later and will try to focus on smaller projects with focusing on perfect gameplay.

Actually we had several unlucky situations in last 10 years. For example we are living in a country which has really beautiful climate and geography and cultural mixture however it is not managed by good people. We had even coup in 2015, we had gezi resistance in 2013 which most of our devs also attended. All these was also fault of government then government used that coup to increase pressure over opponent press members or politicans. So we devs always think about what should we do in future because justice system and freedom of press and education systems went worse in last 20 years here. While coding here I always think also how things would be sorted out. I do not want to leave my country to bad politicans we want to save here from them. In short our brains are not relaxed and its hard to focus on projects. At least mine but I believe there are many others. Democracy is a good system but if politicians controls also media it is so easy to manupilate most of country and get needed votes at elections. So all young educated generation here is trying to go abroad and save themselves and their next generations. My friends at same college are 90% at abroad currently. So quality of all products also human quality reduces. This is something really bad for TW also. Because it will be more and more hard to find quality devs if Turkey cannot save itself from current government.

Also Covid-19 effected us badly too imo. Of course it increased sales (timing of EA release was only a luck, EA release date was determined before Covid outbreak) however I prefer working in office all together with other devs. Discussing game features face to face is always better.

In short I reject Bannerlord is a grift. TW is not a company trying to sell players scam. However in current direction and conditions it will be hard to create perfect projects in future - this is only guess. Thats why I want to create a new way to myself also. There are more reasons which I cannot tell public ofc, not everything was perfect, I also had lots of disapointments - had lots of days with low morale. However just note that managers are not bad people or scammers. After college finished at 2008, I worked for bad people before TW so I know how they are like. At the end of first year I could not continue that and past TW because most important thing is creating projects with people you trust and believe and have similar importances / characteristic. There are too many rich but bad people in world and they use potential / clever / educated / ambitious people to rise more. Its frustrating to work for these people. TW was not a place like that. We worked here to rise good people and they rised and I am happy to see this (even they changed a bit by time).

Also thank you all for your all support you give. TW is a lucky company which have really devoted fans. I know why you criticize much. You see TW from your family and you want us to be successful and use all potential game has.

That's the kind of transparent response we desperately needed! Thank you very much @mexxico
We're all wanting the best for Bannerlord and we'd like to have a post like "These are the things we're going to work on for the next update". It would be better communication and we would have spaces for us to express our opinions directly on what is being developed.

My signature says everything I still hope to see in Bannerlord and I have hopes for people like you.

 

[ArturMorhghain]

Thank you @RalliX , this is really close what we had experienced.

I will try to write something about these topics, its hard to talk about these complex topics with my weak English but will try sorry for grammer mistakes or wrong wordings at the end important thing is understanding and sharing key points and we can do it somehow.

I can say that anybody at top are not focused on getting more money with giving players something not good. Thats why development took so much time. I understand your frustrations. However hype was always ready to rise. Its hard to slow it down or reduce. Even now sometimes we talk about a basic feature in forum (fe. war reasons) then there become big expectations. Then I have to write "please do not expect something big - it is not game changer" to slow down expectations. I cannot defend weak communication of managers but they are not scammers. Armagan is a good person I do not know why he does not prefer communication during EA but he is not a scammer, he is well educated and trustful person which are rare to find around these days. I understand your situation when you cannot see enough communication from him I also feel same you become like you lost one of your closest friends. I am not happy with this direction and I also criticized even at forum but he definately does not focus on getting more money than giving a better product to players. However I want to underline that I really do not understand or can defend halting his communication with players - probably its because no time remains for that after company grows too much.

Money is something meaningless after some point. Reputation is more important. Even 1M$ is enough for living in good conditions in all your life without working. He can take maybe 10x of this money after Warband's success and can live happily ever. It is hard to create a product which will make end users mostly happy especially after in a sequal of a good product. You should always think about your project during day and night and you should spend your life for it even you should not spend enough time with your family. Otherwise it can be hard to understand what players want or need perfectly. In Warband he communicated players much and this yield with a higher ratio of end user happiness. However it is easy to do if you are indie company and if you have lots of energy and ambitions. After company grows you need to deal lots of other boring stuff so time remained to player communication reduces. This can reduce gameplay. This can reduce happiness of community. In that point you should give some of your power to others and split responsibilities - however this is not done. Also probably it seems ambition reduces after a success is gained - maybe related to human nature.

After all these points that's why I also want to take some long rest first (maybe half / one year) get away from computer and spend time on different hobbies free my mind & travel (we are coming to life once, money is less important - life is more important) then create a small indie company later and will try to focus on smaller projects with focusing on perfect gameplay. Because I do not believe things can change here.

In addition we had several unlucky situations in last 10 years. For example we are living in a country which has really beautiful climate and geography and cultural mixture however it is not managed by good people. We had even coup in 2015, we had gezi resistance in 2013 which most of our devs also attended. All these was also fault of government then government used that coup to increase pressure over opponent press members or politicans. So we devs always think about what should we do in future because justice system and freedom of press and education systems went worse in last 20 years here. While coding here I always think also how things would be sorted out. I do not want to leave my country to bad politicans we want to save here from them. In short our brains are not relaxed and its hard to focus on projects. At least mine but I believe there are many others. Democracy is a good system but if politicians controls also media it is so easy to manupilate most of country and get needed votes at elections. So all young educated generation here is trying to go abroad and save themselves and their next generations. My friends at same college are 90% at abroad currently. So quality of all products also human quality reduces. This is something really bad for TW also. Because it will be more and more hard to find quality devs if Turkey cannot save itself from current government.

Also Covid-19 effected us badly too imo. Of course it increased sales (timing of EA release was only a luck, EA release date was determined before Covid outbreak) however I prefer working in office all together with other devs. Discussing game features face to face is always better.

In short I reject Bannerlord is a grift. TW is not a company trying to sell players scam (at least until now - I cannot know what will happen future). However in current direction and conditions it will be hard to create perfect projects in future - this is only guess, I am not talking about ok projects, of course these can be produced. Thats why I want to create a new way to myself also. There are more reasons which I cannot tell public ofc, not everything was perfect, I also had lots of disapointments - had lots of days with low morale. However just note that managers are not bad people or scammers. After college finished at 2008, I worked for bad people who prioritize money before TW so I know how they are like. At the end of first year I could not continue that and past TW because most important thing is creating projects with people you trust and believe and have similar importances / characteristic. There are too many rich but bad people in world and they use potential / clever / educated / ambitious people to rise more. Its frustrating to work for these people. TW was not a place like that. We worked here to rise good people and they rised (with the additional and so important helps of Warband modders also, they created tons of mods with no financial expectations).

Also thank you all for your all support you give. TW is a lucky company which have really devoted fans. I know why you criticize much. You see TW from your family or like a friend you know for long time and you want us to be successful and use all potential game has.

I get all of this - and it’s really such a…human?…post. Thanks for sharing your perspective. Really hope the best for you.

 

[Gerrodot]

Thank you @RalliX , this is really close what we had experienced.

I will try to write something about these topics, its hard to talk about these complex topics with my weak English but will try sorry for grammer mistakes or wrong wordings at the end important thing is understanding and sharing key points and we can do it somehow.

I can say that anybody at top are not focused on getting more money with giving players something not good. Thats why development took so much time. I understand your frustrations. However hype was always ready to rise. Its hard to slow it down or reduce. Even now sometimes we talk about a basic feature in forum (fe. war reasons) then there become big expectations. Then I have to write "please do not expect something big - it is not game changer" to slow down expectations. I cannot defend weak communication of managers but they are not scammers. Armagan is a good person I do not know why he does not prefer communication during EA but he is not a scammer, he is well educated and trustful person which are rare to find around these days. I understand your situation when you cannot see enough communication from him I also feel same you become like you lost one of your closest friends. I am not happy with this direction and I also criticized even at forum but he definately does not focus on getting more money than giving a better product to players. However I want to underline that I really do not understand or can defend halting his communication with players - probably its because no time remains for that after company grows too much.

Money is something meaningless after some point. Reputation is more important. Even 1M$ is enough for living in good conditions in all your life without working. He can take maybe 10x of this money after Warband's success and can live happily ever. It is hard to create a product which will make end users mostly happy especially after in a sequal of a good product. You should always think about your project during day and night and you should spend your life for it even you should not spend enough time with your family. Otherwise it can be hard to understand what players want or need perfectly. In Warband he communicated players much and this yield with a higher ratio of end user happiness. However it is easy to do if you are indie company and if you have lots of energy and ambitions. After company grows you need to deal lots of other boring stuff so time remained to player communication reduces. This can reduce gameplay. This can reduce happiness of community. In that point you should give some of your power to others and split responsibilities - however this is not done. Also probably it seems ambition reduces after a success is gained - maybe related to human nature.

After all these points that's why I also want to take some long rest first (maybe half / one year) get away from computer and spend time on different hobbies free my mind & travel (we are coming to life once, money is less important - life is more important) then create a small indie company later and will try to focus on smaller projects with focusing on perfect gameplay. Because I do not believe things can change here.

In addition we had several unlucky situations in last 10 years. For example we are living in a country which has really beautiful climate and geography and cultural mixture however it is not managed by good people. We had even coup in 2015, we had gezi resistance in 2013 which most of our devs also attended. All these was also fault of government then government used that coup to increase pressure over opponent press members or politicans. So we devs always think about what should we do in future because justice system and freedom of press and education systems went worse in last 20 years here. While coding here I always think also how things would be sorted out. I do not want to leave my country to bad politicans we want to save here from them. In short our brains are not relaxed and its hard to focus on projects. At least mine but I believe there are many others. Democracy is a good system but if politicians controls also media it is so easy to manupilate most of country and get needed votes at elections. So all young educated generation here is trying to go abroad and save themselves and their next generations. My friends at same college are 90% at abroad currently. So quality of all products also human quality reduces. This is something really bad for TW also. Because it will be more and more hard to find quality devs if Turkey cannot save itself from current government.

Also Covid-19 effected us badly too imo. Of course it increased sales (timing of EA release was only a luck, EA release date was determined before Covid outbreak) however I prefer working in office all together with other devs. Discussing game features face to face is always better.

In short I reject Bannerlord is a grift. TW is not a company trying to sell players scam (at least until now - I cannot know what will happen future). However in current direction and conditions it will be hard to create perfect projects in future - this is only guess, I am not talking about ok projects, of course these can be produced. Thats why I want to create a new way to myself also. There are more reasons which I cannot tell public ofc, not everything was perfect, I also had lots of disapointments - had lots of days with low morale. However just note that managers are not bad people or scammers. After college finished at 2008, I worked for bad people who prioritize money before TW so I know how they are like. At the end of first year I could not continue that and past TW because most important thing is creating projects with people you trust and believe and have similar importances / characteristic. There are too many rich but bad people in world and they use potential / clever / educated / ambitious people to rise more. Its frustrating to work for these people. TW was not a place like that. We worked here to rise good people and they rised (with the additional and so important helps of Warband modders also, they created tons of mods with no financial expectations).

Also thank you all for your all support you give. TW is a lucky company which have really devoted fans. I know why you criticize much. You see TW from your family or like a friend you know for long time and you want us to be successful and use all potential game has.

This post should be made a separate thread on the main page of the forum.

 

[mehmeteking]

Sometimes when I close my eyes, I imagine a couple of guys who have seen the Bannerlord EA sales and the subsequent disappointment, and decided to become millionaires by making a Mount and Blade game that Bannerlord should have been. It would take at least several years to make such a game, but they know gamers would back them up along the way as long as they listen to them (and they have the competence to make a mass combat game engine optimized for performance).
I'll wait for it.

So sayeth MadVader the wise Seriously, I have the same dream.

 

[vonbalt]

Thank you @RalliX , this is really close what we had experienced.

I will try to write something about these topics, its hard to talk about these complex topics with my weak English but will try sorry for grammer mistakes or wrong wordings at the end important thing is understanding and sharing key points and we can do it somehow.

I can say that anybody at top are not focused on getting more money with giving players something not good. Thats why development took so much time. I understand your frustrations. However hype was always ready to rise. Its hard to slow it down or reduce. Even now sometimes we talk about a basic feature in forum (fe. war reasons) then there become big expectations. Then I have to write "please do not expect something big - it is not game changer" to slow down expectations. I cannot defend weak communication of managers but they are not scammers. Armagan is a good person I do not know why he does not prefer communication during EA but he is not a scammer, he is well educated and trustful person which are rare to find around these days. I understand your situation when you cannot see enough communication from him I also feel same you become like you lost one of your closest friends. I am not happy with this direction and I also criticized even at forum but he definately does not focus on getting more money than giving a better product to players. However I want to underline that I really do not understand or can defend halting his communication with players - probably its because no time remains for that after company grows too much.

Money is something meaningless after some point. Reputation is more important. Even 1M$ is enough for living in good conditions in all your life without working. He can take maybe 10x of this money after Warband's success and can live happily ever. It is hard to create a product which will make end users mostly happy especially after in a sequal of a good product. You should always think about your project during day and night and you should spend your life for it even you should not spend enough time with your family. Otherwise it can be hard to understand what players want or need perfectly. In Warband he communicated players much and this yield with a higher ratio of end user happiness. However it is easy to do if you are indie company and if you have lots of energy and ambitions. After company grows you need to deal lots of other boring stuff so time remained to player communication reduces. This can reduce gameplay. This can reduce happiness of community. In that point you should give some of your power to others and split responsibilities - however this is not done. Also probably it seems ambition reduces after a success is gained - maybe related to human nature.

After all these points that's why I also want to take some long rest first (maybe half / one year) get away from computer and spend time on different hobbies free my mind & travel (we are coming to life once, money is less important - life is more important) then create a small indie company later and will try to focus on smaller projects with focusing on perfect gameplay. Because I do not believe things can change here.

In addition we had several unlucky situations in last 10 years. For example we are living in a country which has really beautiful climate and geography and cultural mixture however it is not managed by good people. We had even coup in 2015, we had gezi resistance in 2013 which most of our devs also attended. All these was also fault of government then government used that coup to increase pressure over opponent press members or politicans. So we devs always think about what should we do in future because justice system and freedom of press and education systems went worse in last 20 years here. While coding here I always think also how things would be sorted out. I do not want to leave my country to bad politicans we want to save here from them. In short our brains are not relaxed and its hard to focus on projects. At least mine but I believe there are many others. Democracy is a good system but if politicians controls also media it is so easy to manupilate most of country and get needed votes at elections. So all young educated generation here is trying to go abroad and save themselves and their next generations. My friends at same college are 90% at abroad currently. So quality of all products also human quality reduces. This is something really bad for TW also. Because it will be more and more hard to find quality devs if Turkey cannot save itself from current government.

Also Covid-19 effected us badly too imo. Of course it increased sales (timing of EA release was only a luck, EA release date was determined before Covid outbreak) however I prefer working in office all together with other devs. Discussing game features face to face is always better.

In short I reject Bannerlord is a grift. TW is not a company trying to sell players scam (at least until now - I cannot know what will happen future). However in current direction and conditions it will be hard to create perfect projects in future - this is only guess, I am not talking about ok projects, of course these can be produced. Thats why I want to create a new way to myself also. There are more reasons which I cannot tell public ofc, not everything was perfect, I also had lots of disapointments - had lots of days with low morale. However just note that managers are not bad people or scammers. After college finished at 2008, I worked for bad people who prioritize money before TW so I know how they are like. At the end of first year I could not continue that and past TW because most important thing is creating projects with people you trust and believe and have similar importances / characteristic. There are too many rich but bad people in world and they use potential / clever / educated / ambitious people to rise more. Its frustrating to work for these people. TW was not a place like that. We worked here to rise good people and they rised (with the additional and so important helps of Warband modders also, they created tons of mods with no financial expectations).

Also thank you all for your all support you give. TW is a lucky company which have really devoted fans. I know why you criticize much. You see TW from your family or like a friend you know for long time and you want us to be successful and use all potential game has.

Thanks for the sincere communication Mexxico, as someone from a country facing similar problems i really feel you, most of my friends who had the opportunity went abroad to try and make better lives for themselves and their families and it's something i think constantly aswell.

Really wish the best for your life, go get some fresh air and enjoy your hobbies and family when you leave TW and then the best of luck in your future endeavors

About the "give commands to lords" feature i really really liked your suggestion to tie influence to it, warband had this feature based on traits and relationship but using influence aswell would be an awesome way to link it to the overall army system of bannerlord, these kind of simple features add alot to the experience.

 

[Sundeki]

Thank you @RalliX , this is really close what we had experienced.

I will try to write something about these topics, its hard to talk about these complex topics with my weak English but will try sorry for grammer mistakes or wrong wordings at the end important thing is understanding and sharing key points and we can do it somehow.

I can say that anybody at top are not focused on getting more money with giving players something not good. Thats why development took so much time. I understand your frustrations. However hype was always ready to rise. Its hard to slow it down or reduce. Even now sometimes we talk about a basic feature in forum (fe. war reasons) then there become big expectations. Then I have to write "please do not expect something big - it is not game changer" to slow down expectations. I cannot defend weak communication of managers but they are not scammers. Armagan is a good person I do not know why he does not prefer communication during EA but he is not a scammer, he is well educated and trustful person which are rare to find around these days. I understand your situation when you cannot see enough communication from him I also feel same you become like you lost one of your closest friends. I am not happy with this direction and I also criticized even at forum but he definately does not focus on getting more money than giving a better product to players. However I want to underline that I really do not understand or can defend halting his communication with players - probably its because no time remains for that after company grows too much.

Money is something meaningless after some point. Reputation is more important. Even 1M$ is enough for living in good conditions in all your life without working. He can take maybe 10x of this money after Warband's success and can live happily ever. It is hard to create a product which will make end users mostly happy especially after in a sequal of a good product. You should always think about your project during day and night and you should spend your life for it even you should not spend enough time with your family. Otherwise it can be hard to understand what players want or need perfectly. In Warband he communicated players much and this yield with a higher ratio of end user happiness. However it is easy to do if you are indie company and if you have lots of energy and ambitions. After company grows you need to deal lots of other boring stuff so time remained to player communication reduces. This can reduce gameplay. This can reduce happiness of community. In that point you should give some of your power to others and split responsibilities - however this is not done. Also probably it seems ambition reduces after a success is gained - maybe related to human nature.

After all these points that's why I also want to take some long rest first (maybe half / one year) get away from computer and spend time on different hobbies free my mind & travel (we are coming to life once, money is less important - life is more important) then create a small indie company later and will try to focus on smaller projects with focusing on perfect gameplay. Because I do not believe things can change here.

In addition we had several unlucky situations in last 10 years. For example we are living in a country which has really beautiful climate and geography and cultural mixture however it is not managed by good people. We had even coup in 2015, we had gezi resistance in 2013 which most of our devs also attended. All these was also fault of government then government used that coup to increase pressure over opponent press members or politicans. So we devs always think about what should we do in future because justice system and freedom of press and education systems went worse in last 20 years here. While coding here I always think also how things would be sorted out. I do not want to leave my country to bad politicans we want to save here from them. In short our brains are not relaxed and its hard to focus on projects. At least mine but I believe there are many others. Democracy is a good system but if politicians controls also media it is so easy to manupilate most of country and get needed votes at elections. So all young educated generation here is trying to go abroad and save themselves and their next generations. My friends at same college are 90% at abroad currently. So quality of all products also human quality reduces. This is something really bad for TW also. Because it will be more and more hard to find quality devs if Turkey cannot save itself from current government.

Also Covid-19 effected us badly too imo. Of course it increased sales (timing of EA release was only a luck, EA release date was determined before Covid outbreak) however I prefer working in office all together with other devs. Discussing game features face to face is always better.

In short I reject Bannerlord is a grift. TW is not a company trying to sell players scam (at least until now - I cannot know what will happen future). However in current direction and conditions it will be hard to create perfect projects in future - this is only guess, I am not talking about ok projects, of course these can be produced. Thats why I want to create a new way to myself also. There are more reasons which I cannot tell public ofc, not everything was perfect, I also had lots of disapointments - had lots of days with low morale. However just note that managers are not bad people or scammers. After college finished at 2008, I worked for bad people who prioritize money before TW so I know how they are like. At the end of first year I could not continue that and past TW because most important thing is creating projects with people you trust and believe and have similar importances / characteristic. There are too many rich but bad people in world and they use potential / clever / educated / ambitious people to rise more. Its frustrating to work for these people. TW was not a place like that. We worked here to rise good people and they rised (with the additional and so important helps of Warband modders also, they created tons of mods with no financial expectations).

Also thank you all for your all support you give. TW is a lucky company which have really devoted fans. I know why you criticize much. You see TW from your family or like a friend you know for long time and you want us to be successful and use all potential game has.

Thanks very much for this post, it seems to be the sole post of significance that isn't just PR speak bull****. And despite the fact that I am very upset at your company, I appreciate it.

If at all possible, could you tell us just what happened to Multiplayer(assuming you know enough about it to speak on it)? The decisions, the perspectives, the ideas, etc., even a quick summary. In all my life I have never seen something so confusing as what has gone on with multiplayer development. From where I sit, the multiplayer community has always been on the same page, requesting the same things and yet multiplayer never seems to move. Has it just been assigned a couple of people and been largely abandoned(perhaps to focus on singleplayer?). If middle management, and Armagan, do care as you say they do; then how is it that they are always so out of touch with what the Multiplayer community wants? Any insight whatsoever would be appreciated at this point.

 

[LuciusDomitiusAurelianus]

@mexxico thank you for the post and I am so sorry you had to even grace this thread with a reply and go into detail talking about Turkey's geopolitical issues and other things that effect the game's development. Your'e only human, as are others, and it's depressing coming here and seeing crap like this.

 

[NPC99]

Thank you @RalliX , this is really close what we had experienced.

I will try to write something about these topics, its hard to talk about these complex topics with my weak English but will try sorry for grammer mistakes or wrong wordings at the end important thing is understanding and sharing key points and we can do it somehow.

I can say that anybody at top are not focused on getting more money with giving players something not good. Thats why development took so much time. I understand your frustrations. However hype was always ready to rise. Its hard to slow it down or reduce. Even now sometimes we talk about a basic feature in forum (fe. war reasons) then there become big expectations. Then I have to write "please do not expect something big - it is not game changer" to slow down expectations. I cannot defend weak communication of managers but they are not scammers. Armagan is a good person I do not know why he does not prefer communication during EA but he is not a scammer, he is well educated and trustful person which are rare to find around these days. I understand your situation when you cannot see enough communication from him I also feel same you become like you lost one of your closest friends. I am not happy with this direction and I also criticized even at forum but he definately does not focus on getting more money than giving a better product to players. However I want to underline that I really do not understand or can defend halting his communication with players - probably its because no time remains for that after company grows too much.

Money is something meaningless after some point. Reputation is more important. Even 1M$ is enough for living in good conditions in all your life without working. He can take maybe 10x of this money after Warband's success and can live happily ever. It is hard to create a product which will make end users mostly happy especially after in a sequal of a good product. You should always think about your project during day and night and you should spend your life for it even you should not spend enough time with your family. Otherwise it can be hard to understand what players want or need perfectly. In Warband he communicated players much and this yield with a higher ratio of end user happiness. However it is easy to do if you are indie company and if you have lots of energy and ambitions. After company grows you need to deal lots of other boring stuff so time remained to player communication reduces. This can reduce gameplay. This can reduce happiness of community. In that point you should give some of your power to others and split responsibilities - however this is not done. Also probably it seems ambition reduces after a success is gained - maybe related to human nature.

After all these points that's why I also want to take some long rest first (maybe half / one year) get away from computer and spend time on different hobbies free my mind & travel (we are coming to life once, money is less important - life is more important) then create a small indie company later and will try to focus on smaller projects with focusing on perfect gameplay. Because I do not believe things can change here.

In addition we had several unlucky situations in last 10 years. For example we are living in a country which has really beautiful climate and geography and cultural mixture however it is not managed by good people. We had even coup in 2015, we had gezi resistance in 2013 which most of our devs also attended. All these was also fault of government then government used that coup to increase pressure over opponent press members or politicans. So we devs always think about what should we do in future because justice system and freedom of press and education systems went worse in last 20 years here. While coding here I always think also how things would be sorted out. I do not want to leave my country to bad politicans we want to save here from them. In short our brains are not relaxed and its hard to focus on projects. At least mine but I believe there are many others. Democracy is a good system but if politicians controls also media it is so easy to manupilate most of country and get needed votes at elections. So all young educated generation here is trying to go abroad and save themselves and their next generations. My friends at same college are 90% at abroad currently. So quality of all products also human quality reduces. This is something really bad for TW also. Because it will be more and more hard to find quality devs if Turkey cannot save itself from current government.

Also Covid-19 effected us badly too imo. Of course it increased sales (timing of EA release was only a luck, EA release date was determined before Covid outbreak) however I prefer working in office all together with other devs. Discussing game features face to face is always better.

In short I reject Bannerlord is a grift. TW is not a company trying to sell players scam (at least until now - I cannot know what will happen future). However in current direction and conditions it will be hard to create perfect projects in future - this is only guess, I am not talking about ok projects, of course these can be produced. Thats why I want to create a new way to myself also. There are more reasons which I cannot tell public ofc, not everything was perfect, I also had lots of disapointments - had lots of days with low morale. However just note that managers are not bad people or scammers. After college finished at 2008, I worked for bad people who prioritize money before TW so I know how they are like. At the end of first year I could not continue that and past TW because most important thing is creating projects with people you trust and believe and have similar importances / characteristic. There are too many rich but bad people in world and they use potential / clever / educated / ambitious people to rise more. Its frustrating to work for these people. TW was not a place like that. We worked here to rise good people and they rised (with the additional and so important helps of Warband modders also, they created tons of mods with no financial expectations).

Also thank you all for your all support you give. TW is a lucky company which have really devoted fans. I know why you criticize much. You see TW from your family or like a friend you know for long time and you want us to be successful and use all potential game has.

I'm glad you've set the record straight. Hopefully, this time the truth will be sufficient for our conspiracy theorists.

 

[Sidhwen_Khorest]

Even now sometimes we talk about a basic feature in forum (fe. war reasons) then there become big expectations. Then I have to write "please do not expect something big - it is not game changer" to slow down expectations.

I have been struggling with this at my development job as well. Managing the expectations of the customer is always difficult, because time is finite and sometimes they just ask for too much, or expect it too quickly. I always try to remind them that while I agree with a feature or bug fix that they want, it may be a long while before it is implemented, or it may be ultimately determined that it would take too much time for something that isn't worth it.

It's not easy to balance, and at a certain point is sometimes better to not let the customer know what it is you are working on, because in their mind their issue is more important. Of course, you also want to continue to hear their opinions and thoughts about existing bugs and new features so you have to make them feel heard.

I think you have struck this balance well, Mexxico, and it is why you are extremely popular here.

 

[Roy1012]

The problem is more like selling the game under wrong promises.

The grief is that they sold the game as EA whilst not willing to improve on it. When they said the game was almost finished, they were truthful.
The problem was we didn't listen and shielded the game with "it's still EA". If I got the chance now I would refund it without the blink of an eye. But at the time of launch I still had hopes that SOME of the stuff that was promised, SOME of the vision that was conveyed to us in devlogs would be realised when the game is finished. But that wasn't the case.

BL is a prime exemple of how EA can be used to underdeliver on a game and then shield oneself from any criticism. Not by claiming that it is "just EA and bugs are to be expected" but by keeping unrealistic hopes up until everybody paid his money and won't get it back.

They should have sold it as a finished product with fixes to come. That would have been honest at least.

That’s a good point. Early access should be a few months, not a few years. I think the latest you can push the early access meme is a year, IF you are improving things. An update for Scabbards once every three months is not an improvement worthy of early access nor a justifiable dev blog. The fact the game is in a similar stage (aside from bug fixes) to when the closed beta happened is pitiful. Like you said, early access is to add more things. They have done very little of that.

 

[Plumberscrack]

Now that's it's clear that development took a **** for the sake of making it more console friendly and that modders which would keep the game going forever are being spat upon I will finally concede that I have lost faith. 1.6 should have been 1.5.11. This all stinks. They have zero incentive to make this game better.

 

[NPC99]

That’s a good point. Early access should be a few months, not a few years. I think the latest you can push the early access meme is a year, IF you are improving things. An update for Scabbards once every three months is not an improvement worthy of early access nor a justifiable dev blog. The fact the game is in a similar stage (aside from bug fixes) to when the closed beta happened is pitiful. Like you said, early access is to add more things. They have done very little of that.

Early access is to stabilise and optimise performance over a wide range of hardware including minimum pc specs that were always too low IMO. Any downgrade/simplification is due to that low minimum pc spec, not consoles. It is also about balancing gameplay and fully implementing partial features and missing scenes. Most of the focus is to get the game working correctly for the whole customer base. It's not a complete game start point to which bonus features are added every week.

 

[Life_Erikson]

Early access is to stabilise and optimise performance over a wide range of hardware including minimum pc specs that were always too low IMO. Any downgrade/simplification is due to that low minimum pc spec, not consoles. It is also about balancing gameplay and fully implementing partial features and missing scenes. Most of the focus is to get the game working correctly for the whole customer base. It's not a complete game start point to which bonus features are added every week.

Not nessecarily, thats true. But a lot of games on steam that are EA are developed in EA for years and constantly expanded. I actually think that EA titles which use EA only for bugfixes are the exception not the rule.

But technically speaking you are correct. TW stated before release "the game is almost finished". We interpreted that as an overstatement expecting much more to come when in fact it was a truthfull statement. Mexxico is correct when he sais that it is mainly a communication problem.

But this doesn't eliviate TW from the promises they made in the devlogs. If they don't deliver on these they should have cut back on the expectations by making clear what the new vision for the game is, stating that they have made changes in their vision during the developement process. They didn't though. The only feature that I know of which was mentioned to the community that it is being cut is castle building.

I understand that (as mexxico said) it is difficult to cut back on expectations and hype. This makes TW's actions understandable. But this doesn't mean we need to excuse them. It is like somebody running a red traffic light because he was late to work and lying to the police officer about it. It is understandable, but he still ran the light and will get his ticket.