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Bannerlord was a grift

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MostBlunted

Sergeant Knight
“I don’t think the people who are responsible for the development of the game are responsible for the development of the game”

🤣


EDIT : f for Mexxico.
No, it´s not like that the dev´s say "this is too complex for console players!".
 
While you may have passionate love for the series, something that I don't doubt whatsoever, harsh is a rather vague term. Harsh can mean giving back scathing criticism on the game which is well needed at this point, and harsh can also mean just belittling the devs and calling them incompetent can also fall under that.
I don't think "harsh" is an especially vague term. The developer team as a whole is definitely a big part of the problem, with the structure, the culture, etc, but it's probably more so the leadership. I just don't put the blame on individual developers, they usually don't have that kind of power and influence over things and they try their best given the situation.
It also doesn't really matter if one has a love for Warband, one can still be incredibly toxic. Just because you love one thing does not mean your cannot be toxic. Just the same as just because I enjoy Bannerlord does not mean I cannot be toxic.
Not incorrect, but most of the people spreading the words "toxicity" and "haters" around are implying that the accused are doing it out of pure hatred of the developing team and the game for the sake of raw hatred. Rather, the reason most of the time as I said is the immense frustration out of passion; they want this game to be great, but they don't foresee it happening outside of mods.
As a final point, if you want TW to actually listen to your complaints, don't be toxic. Being toxic, insulting devs and fans alike, will get nothing done but make your voice pointless in the eyes of TW devs. If you want the game to look like how you want it to, it is best to avoid being toxic, as if you don't you'll most likely end up being ignored. The mod letter got the support that it did not just because it was on an important topic, but because the discussion around it was civil and professional, use that as an example as to how to get things done.
I think the attitude and the atmosphere of the forums would be vastly different had TW's communication been better. There's a bit more communication going on now it seems, but for a long time, there was absolute silence. This kind of poor work spreads discontent and dislike when people post all kinds of constructive feedback with almost no response, and naturally, they'll give up being so constructive and kind when it's all for naught. There are so many threads that have withered away in the deep annals of the forum, never given any attention by the team. Even still, nobody knows what's going on and what the plans are, and most of what is said is incredibly vague, or a "too complex" is given, and the community is left feeling disliked and abandoned.

That being said, the developers that do post on their own time deserve plenty of appreciation, they're doing God's work. The way TW has treated their community overall has led to toxicity and discontent in my mind, it's not chiefly the community at fault. A lot of people on the forums have been somewhat toxic, admittedly and not proudly myself included, and we should try to be less insulting and rather understanding that a lot of things go wrong, but that does not mean that mistakes shouldn't be called out. The internet also often compels people to be bolder and less kind behind a screen, and there are other problems too, mine, for instance, is that I like making fun of people in a non-serious way, but with written text on the internet, it often comes across as a personal insult, when I don't mean it as such. Although I have also intentionally insulted people who I deem deserved it, which isn't great behavior.
 

Ruthven

Baron
WBM&BVC
Community interaction is always up to the company. Usually when fanbases run wild with toxicity it indicates a gulf between the company and their players; people get insulting because they don't have anything human-like to empathize with. There are countless steam reviews (literally thousands upon thousands) especially on Indie games that are incredibly rude and toxic, as soon as a developer replies and shows that they are listening the original angry reviewer walks back their mean comments and says some positive things. It's also easy to look at all companies as soulless corporate entities, even if it's really just 2 poor passionate hardworking devs trying to compete. Nobody knows how down to earth and passionate you are about your game unless you... show them.

Pretty much all game companies suck at community management to be fair, it's hard to maintain a level of necessary professionalism when most gamers want devs to be relatably non-professional and not get canned responses to their complaints. It's a double edged sword though, if you give all your devs leave to comment and interact as they please, they might say some minor comment that gets blown way out of proportion. Iirc this has happened here before with some of the devs whose English is weaker, weighing in on things that aren't their specific wheelhouse and having fans jump to wrong conclusions.

If you look at the suggestion forum for MB1 beta from 2005-2007 you will probably fall in love with armagan. But of course he can't keep being the forefront of community interaction forever.. I think TW could do better bridging that gap though, and if they did more people would stick up for positivity even amidst the complaints. It's also true that swears, hyperbole, and "dealing in absolutes" are simply tools to make written complaints feel grander and more impassioned, for example @Terco_Viejo manages to keep his words quite civil by expressing his feelings with gifs instead :wink:

My untested non-professional theory is that maximizing dev/community interaction is actually better overall: Its the Donald Trump method of communication, if you lie 1000 times a day people start to ignore the lies and only pay attention to the 1 thing that's true. If you post 1 comment a month as community manager, you'd better be 100% right every time since each word will be stretched and analyzed to death. I feel that TW are so worried about saying something misleading they prefer to say nothing at all, putting their own feet directly in the crosshairs whenever they do try to share something.

At the end of the day, if discussion sections of the forums are not good for the game or the community they could shut it down and have this be exclusively a tech support forum (maybe with the off topic retirement home perhaps.) If the direction the game is going is not in line with the expectations of the Warband community, tw should be upfront about that; if they want it to be they can change the game according to suggestions, if not they can find their new audience. It's like breaking up with your fiancé instead of just ghosting them after planning the honeymoon for the last 8 years. (And that analogy is not even a stretch with the way a lot of people treat this game)

The thing that bothers me the most is how much amazing feedback was generated in the first alpha/beta that was mostly ignored. Imagine a company was making a flagship game title, and they had access to playtesters who had 10k+ hours in that exact niche game type, who left pages and pages of in depth feedback with videos, graphs, you name it... Any wise company that could afford it would pay out the nose, and pay keen attention to every issue raised. But since TW grew their own community, it made it easy for them to overlook the value, and easy to assume they would automatically get the same kind of dedicated community again regardless of how their new vision was received by the old one. It's easy to write off the opinions of the hardcore fans as only applying to the opinions of other hard-core fans, but turns out people who have played the game for a million years actually know exactly what made the game worth it.
 

Blackhuskyy

Recruit
WBNW
The only thing I want and waiting for is, the removal or alternative option too my most HATED change "the CLASS system" I hate how that is barely talked about, dead multiplayer says enough that **** dont work.
 

Roy1012

Duke
The only thing I want and waiting for is, the removal or alternative option too my most HATED change "the CLASS system" I hate how that is barely talked about, dead multiplayer says enough that **** dont work.
But... the devs worked hard on it! They put so many hours into it, you aren't having fun the right way!!!11!!1!

I understand the devs perspective. They worked on a system for a very long time that they though would be superior (they said they think it is better), and probably should have consulted the players before putting hundreds of hours into it for everyone to realize its terrible. Now, they don't want to go back. They dumped so much time into it, they can't just cancel it. Too bad its the wrong way of doing things. Maybe contact your fanbase to see if they would like such a radical change before forcing it on them.
 

Blackhuskyy

Recruit
WBNW
But... the devs worked hard on it! They put so many hours into it, you aren't having fun the right way!!!11!!1!

I understand the devs perspective. They worked on a system for a very long time that they though would be superior (they said they think it is better), and probably should have consulted the players before putting hundreds of hours into it for everyone to realize its terrible. Now, they don't want to go back. They dumped so much time into it, they can't just cancel it. Too bad its the wrong way of doing things. Maybe contact your fanbase to see if they would like such a radical change before forcing it on them.
There worse mistake was removing that what worked and made multiplayer popular, I wouldnt be suprised if the class system was there too eventually sell skins, as there were speculations before.
 

Roy1012

Duke
There worse mistake was removing that what worked and made multiplayer popular, I wouldnt be suprised if the class system was there too eventually sell skins, as there were speculations before.
While I've never been a huge opponent to skins and such, I can understand people's perspective of hatred for them. Taleworlds I'm sure understands as well, but, well, as this thread has proven...money comes first! Besides, a few angry loyal fans is nothing compared to the mass shekels that can be acquired!
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Community interaction is always up to the company. Usually when fanbases run wild with toxicity it indicates a gulf between the company and their players; people get insulting because they don't have anything human-like to empathize with. There are countless steam reviews (literally thousands upon thousands) especially on Indie games that are incredibly rude and toxic, as soon as a developer replies and shows that they are listening the original angry reviewer walks back their mean comments and says some positive things. It's also easy to look at all companies as soulless corporate entities, even if it's really just 2 poor passionate hardworking devs trying to compete. Nobody knows how down to earth and passionate you are about your game unless you... show them.

Pretty much all game companies suck at community management to be fair, it's hard to maintain a level of necessary professionalism when most gamers want devs to be relatably non-professional and not get canned responses to their complaints. It's a double edged sword though, if you give all your devs leave to comment and interact as they please, they might say some minor comment that gets blown way out of proportion. Iirc this has happened here before with some of the devs whose English is weaker, weighing in on things that aren't their specific wheelhouse and having fans jump to wrong conclusions.

If you look at the suggestion forum for MB1 beta from 2005-2007 you will probably fall in love with armagan. But of course he can't keep being the forefront of community interaction forever.. I think TW could do better bridging that gap though, and if they did more people would stick up for positivity even amidst the complaints. It's also true that swears, hyperbole, and "dealing in absolutes" are simply tools to make written complaints feel grander and more impassioned, for example @Terco_Viejo manages to keep his words quite civil by expressing his feelings with gifs instead :wink:

My untested non-professional theory is that maximizing dev/community interaction is actually better overall: Its the Donald Trump method of communication, if you lie 1000 times a day people start to ignore the lies and only pay attention to the 1 thing that's true. If you post 1 comment a month as community manager, you'd better be 100% right every time since each word will be stretched and analyzed to death. I feel that TW are so worried about saying something misleading they prefer to say nothing at all, putting their own feet directly in the crosshairs whenever they do try to share something.

At the end of the day, if discussion sections of the forums are not good for the game or the community they could shut it down and have this be exclusively a tech support forum (maybe with the off topic retirement home perhaps.) If the direction the game is going is not in line with the expectations of the Warband community, tw should be upfront about that; if they want it to be they can change the game according to suggestions, if not they can find their new audience. It's like breaking up with your fiancé instead of just ghosting them after planning the honeymoon for the last 8 years. (And that analogy is not even a stretch with the way a lot of people treat this game)

The thing that bothers me the most is how much amazing feedback was generated in the first alpha/beta that was mostly ignored. Imagine a company was making a flagship game title, and they had access to playtesters who had 10k+ hours in that exact niche game type, who left pages and pages of in depth feedback with videos, graphs, you name it... Any wise company that could afford it would pay out the nose, and pay keen attention to every issue raised. But since TW grew their own community, it made it easy for them to overlook the value, and easy to assume they would automatically get the same kind of dedicated community again regardless of how their new vision was received by the old one. It's easy to write off the opinions of the hardcore fans as only applying to the opinions of other hard-core fans, but turns out people who have played the game for a million years actually know exactly what made the game worth it.

Well said, I very much agree with what you say; especially with the content of the last paragraph (I have also explicitly emphasised it in previous posts of mine). Unfortunately, there are already many people who know what is hidden at the end of the beach... 😌 🎻

giphy.gif
 

Life_Erikson

Master Knight
M&BWBNWVC
On the point of Game-to-Forums relation, i think it's an almost direct reciprocity with the game itself being the starting point of any positive or negative sentiment (and activity levels) we can feel on the forums, from which a bit can then be spilled back over to the game development. The problem we are currently experiencing seems to me that is related to the fact that the main core of the forums was created arround a set of different games, made in a different time, with a different development and communication style, under completely different circumstances, and that disparity started to show arround closed Beta tests, when decent number of people started getting the feel of what the actual game will be like, and that it was shaped by a now moderately sized studio, rather than indie development studio whose couple of devs are on the first name basis with their forum users/hardcore fans.
What it looks to me that made the forums worse, is after EA launch and with the coming of the Singleplayer, with some design decisions it became more evident that the game is moving away from "niche" and on to a conveyor belt.
Thats very much on point I think.
Yet I also see lots of people new to the forum and Mount&Blade who equally criticise the game.
It's not all about the shift from indie to professional or from niche to mainstream. It's also about the fact that the game isn't very good and it isn't really being improved upon in any meaningful way.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
There worse mistake was removing that what worked and made multiplayer popular, I wouldnt be suprised if the class system was there too eventually sell skins, as there were speculations before.
Never say never. But TW have specifically ruled out ever having microtransactions before.
But... the devs worked hard on it! They put so many hours into it, you aren't having fun the right way!!!11!!1!

I understand the devs perspective. They worked on a system for a very long time that they though would be superior (they said they think it is better), and probably should have consulted the players before putting hundreds of hours into it for everyone to realize its terrible. Now, they don't want to go back. They dumped so much time into it, they can't just cancel it. Too bad its the wrong way of doing things. Maybe contact your fanbase to see if they would like such a radical change before forcing it on them.

I think the reason we have the class system is TW looked at games like Chivalry and wanted to emulate it's MP success. let's be honest M&B warband MP was always a niche group. Chivalry 2 has an even more restrictive class system then Bannerlord (literally 4 classes - 3 weapon options and 3 perks - no factions). Yet there is a huge community that enjoys it.

Honestly as ambivalent I have been over the class system over the years - I now believe they should return to it. Not because I think it's better; but purely as basically an olive branch to the existing MP community. Clearly their new project hasn't landed in the way they wanted - I think a lot of goodwill might be generated to basically going "Well you got you wanted - leave us alone to get on with SP now"
 
The thing that bothers me the most is how much amazing feedback was generated in the first alpha/beta that was mostly ignored. Imagine a company was making a flagship game title, and they had access to playtesters who had 10k+ hours in that exact niche game type, who left pages and pages of in depth feedback with videos, graphs, you name it... Any wise company that could afford it would pay out the nose, and pay keen attention to every issue raised. But since TW grew their own community, it made it easy for them to overlook the value, and easy to assume they would automatically get the same kind of dedicated community again regardless of how their new vision was received by the old one. It's easy to write off the opinions of the hardcore fans as only applying to the opinions of other hard-core fans, but turns out people who have played the game for a million years actually know exactly what made the game worth it.

Key note being appreciation. It is easy to take things for granted once you’ve grown accustomed to them. The number reason for most divorces is in its core a lack of appreciation.

A farmer’s wife had been cooking elaborate lunch meals for her husband and the farmboys for years. But one day she didnt. Instead, she put hay on each plate and set it up on the table. After hearing the outcry from the men she said: I never hear anything about what you get from me, so it might as well be hay.

Also, very interesting to read your perspective on the first early development stages of mb1, its a good comparison. Sounds like the community was cooking up the best buffets and Taleworlds noticed that. Now we’ve been doing the same, but it might has well have been hay.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Then they couldn't have made any more of a spectacular failure of it if that was the case.
Perhaps. TW envisioned more for M&B mp then a few hundred dedicated fans. Maybe it's time they caved and just redid warbands MP - however I'd consider that the end of Bannerlord MP; it would be doomed to be little more then a niche for 10% of the player base like warbands was.

I regrettably think it's time for that though.
 
Perhaps. TW envisioned more for M&B mp then a few hundred dedicated fans. Maybe it's time they caved and just redid warbands MP - however I'd consider that the end of Bannerlord MP; it would be doomed to be little more then a niche for 10% of the player base like warbands was.

I regrettably think it's time for that though.

Im absolutely not an expert, but wouldn’t certain good working systems such as the server system be implementable into BL? With necessary but limited adjustments? Or are they not made to be “modular”? Because that seems to be the most wanted fix.

Or they would want to keep the community on WB up untill BL is out of EA and then just focus on improvement?

Edit: Both questions without a real answer, I know, just curious about peoples opinions
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Im absolutely not an expert, but wouldn’t certain good working systems such as the server system be implementable into BL? With necessary but limited adjustments? Or are they not made to be “modular”? Because that seems to be the most wanted fix.

Or they would want to keep the community on WB up untill BL is out of EA and then just focus on improvement?

Edit: Both questions without a real answer, I know, just curious about peoples opinions
Custom servers are guaranteed at some point. Annoying we haven't got them- but I don't think that's too much in debate.
 

Roy1012

Duke
Custom servers are guaranteed at some point. Annoying we haven't got them- but I don't think that's too much in debate.
Well, I don’t understand how hard it is to release the scripts/source code for it. Seriously, they just want a monopoly on the games multiplayer and refuse to admit that their way sucks. I don’t understand why they can’t just let us do what we want to do.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Well, I don’t understand how hard it is to release the scripts/source code for it. Seriously, they just want a monopoly on the games multiplayer and refuse to admit that their way sucks. I don’t understand why they can’t just let us do what we want to do.
To play devil's advocate - it's because they want Bannerlords mp to be a success without mods. And the only way they can improve it is if people actually play it and report bugs etc.

If everyone jumped ship onto a mod (which most will probably do when we get custom servers) then that is really the end of any serious Bannerlord official content/community. I think TW wanted more from MP then it simply being a niche modding platform.

However I feel like we aren't far off that point now anyway and taleworlds might aswell throw in the towel for MP.
 

Askorti

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WB
To play devil's advocate - it's because they want Bannerlords mp to be a success without mods. And the only way they can improve it is if people actually play it and report bugs etc.

If everyone jumped ship onto a mod (which most will probably do when we get custom servers) then that is really the end of any serious Bannerlord official content/community. I think TW wanted more from MP then it simply being a niche modding platform.

However I feel like we aren't far off that point now anyway and taleworlds might aswell throw in the towel for MP.

So in order to avoid the MP becoming a niche modding platform they instead worked very hard so that it becomes a deader than disco vanilla platform. Now I am not an expert, but I think that a niche but healthy platform is preferable to one that is dead and much reviled.
 
So in order to avoid the MP becoming a niche modding platform they instead worked very hard so that it becomes a deader than disco vanilla platform. Now I am not an expert, but I think that a niche but healthy platform is preferable to one that is dead and much reviled.

Absolutely. This entire situation however is extremely understandable from both the players as TW’s perspective.

They want to move out of the niche, reach a wider audience. And from a marketing standpoint that is very admirable. But if by doing so you are forgetting your core customers, who love being in that niche and its quirkiness, you’re going to end up with nothing.
 

MadVader

Duhpressed
Duke
M&BWB
To play devil's advocate - it's because they want Bannerlords mp to be a success without mods. And the only way they can improve it is if people actually play it and report bugs etc.

If everyone jumped ship onto a mod (which most will probably do when we get custom servers) then that is really the end of any serious Bannerlord official content/community. I think TW wanted more from MP then it simply being a niche modding platform.
If Taleworlds wants a better MP, they should allow MP mods and copy what they like from the mods into the base game (by conceptual theft or even permission from modders). The modders and the community would do their work for them (=test various game designs) instead of the current "flailing in the dark" strategy.
So it's possible to have a strong and dynamic Native MP that people would play.
 
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