Bannerlord was a grift

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bonerstorm

Veteran
Pardon my roundupping, but I just got back from a 1-week zucc.
They have given no indication that they will bail on the game, and they have no reason to.
Wrong. TW can't monetize a console port until the main game is complete and - assuming they don't screw up the marketing - it promises to be the most profitable thing they do for the next several years.

They may not have an incentive to abandon this popular IP, but they absolutely have tons of incentive to rush the end of EA at the expense of quality... especially if actually completing the game and keeping their promises means lots of development while hype diminishes.

Also, I'm 99% sure that I schooled you before on BL's player stats and how you're totally wrong: BL was one of the bestselling games of 2020 but player share dropped off a cliff right after release and - since then - this forum has been plagued with posts asking "I've been away for 4 months - is this playable yet?"

By contrast, Warband released with a smaller fanbase and the player stats have remained roughly the same or better literally 10 years later. It's even increasing as more and more people give up on Bannerlord.

You can't compare BL to any other RPG or 4x or medieval combat or real-time tactics game because it incorporates all of those genres into one. BL can only be compared to WB and, by that metric, BL is a failure in every sense other than selling millions of copies to unsatisfied fans.

Warband was one of the most popular games of all time and the only Bannerlord has avoided widespread condemnation is because uninformed fans outside these forums don't know that BL is a major step down from its predecessor.
This right here.

Performance improvements are good and we all like it but TW has to start fixing tangible things that are broken/unbalanced since the begining of the early access to improve their relationship with the community for real.

They have noted for more than a year now that sieges are in a bad state, armor effectiveness and combat ai needs improvements but what have we got on these so far?
Yep. This is exactly what's most frustrating about all of this crap. TW keeps tweaking the game... which implies that there aren't glaring holes in the gameplay that everyone can see.

The first thing we need is real two-way communication with the company. Not necessarily direct conversations, but at least some way for us to express things like "HEY! WE WANT SIEGES TO WORK!" and get a believable acknowledgement that it's a top priority.
Neither is 4chan
tru :xf-cry:
why is there one of these dudes every month who shows up trying to convince everyone the games good and then just disappears
@Phantom425 isn't one of those. He's been around for a few weeks and will plausibly be around for a few weeks more. Maybe longer than that. Maybe we'll convert him. Maybe this game will be successfully released shortly after I finally ragequit this forum for good.

And maybe he'll ask me to come back again. And... maybe... I'll say, "Maybe."
Except there was never a promised release date of 2015 so I want some of what you're smoking kid.
But THIS guy definitely won't be around for a while.

My working theory is that even after virulently and repeatedly flaming this thread, @Orion and the other mods won't bother banning him because these pro-TW flamers pop up like weeds and disappear as soon as it's clear that we're too jaded to be trolled in perpetuity.
In terms of both compexity and stability this game puts Skyrim to shame. Certainly Bannerlord's engine has Skyrim's beat by an order of magnitude, and Skyrim was released by an allegedly AAA developer, not bad work for a small team.
LOL NOPE.

Skyrim may have been a buggy mess, but it was a massive open world with nearly 300 quests - all with fully-voiced dialogue - and complex RPG elements and a large worldbuilding canon.

BL is an overland map plus a handful of battlemaps, towns and rooms. There's combat and battlesim and the clan mechanic. The unique lines of dialogue number in the dozens, at most - some of which have even been removed since EA release. The RPG elements are rudimentary (mostly broken too) and the perks are generally unremarkable.

The only thing that Bannerlord does that's substantially more complex than Skyrim is their physics engine and mass combat - which also don't work.

EDIT: OMG I FORGOT... Skyrim had BREAD!!! TaleWorlds done stole my sweetroll 💩
It's not under TW control, they can't easily monetize it and naturally raises unpleasant questions for Taleworlds..
Correct.

Within days of release, modders released unofficial patches and introduced new features that easily eclipsed all of the new features that TW has introduced in the past year. Having a thriving mod community is an asset to any game developer, but it's also a liability when you're trying to avoid attention paid to your own company's embarrassing failures.
Someone: They need to fix A.
Phantom425: No, everyone needs to spend all their time on sieges, leave A broken.
Yeah @Phantom425 may not be a vapormember of this forum, but in a short time he's absolutely established a track record of insulting long-time members with really shallow takes that ignore the very obvious realities of this situation.

Like aggressively tone-policing the one thread in months to successfully prompt the devs to make a substantive change in their behavior. Or insisting that fixes to all our problems would be right around the corner if we only stopped complaining about how the problems haven't been fixed for over a year. Or asking us to scientifically prove really obvious things like "Bannerlord has been a disappointment to longtime fans", then retreating from that motte to the bailey of "Well we live in a universe of infinite possibilities so...".

He gets points for being polite about it tho.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
Also, I'm 99% sure that I schooled you before on BL's player stats and how you're totally wrong: BL was one of the bestselling games of 2020 but player share dropped off a cliff right after release and - since then - this forum has been plagued with posts asking "I've been away for 4 months - is this playable yet?"

By contrast, Warband released with a smaller fanbase and the player stats have remained roughly the same or better literally 10 years later. It's even increasing as more and more people give up on Bannerlord.
I asked you before where you got those numbers, because Steam only started tracking them five years after Warband's release and most other similar games have the exact same drop.
 

Phantom425

Sergeant
Wrong. TW can't monetize a console port until the main game is complete and - assuming they don't screw up the marketing - it promises to be the most profitable thing they do for the next several years.

They may not have an incentive to abandon this popular IP, but they absolutely have tons of incentive to rush the end of EA at the expense of quality... especially if actually completing the game and keeping their promises means lots of development while hype diminishes.
Rushing a release launch does not mean abandoning the game following release. If anything, a successful console port should spur them on to do more with the game, as the extra money can fund development for DLCs. And what you said here doesn't disprove what I said, so is it wrong? Rushing a release at the expense of quality is not abandoning a game, just look at NMS.
Also, I'm 99% sure that I schooled you before on BL's player stats and how you're totally wrong: BL was one of the bestselling games of 2020 but player share dropped off a cliff right after release and - since then - this forum has been plagued with posts asking "I've been away for 4 months - is this playable yet?"
Wasn't me, that must have been someone else.

This forum being plagued with posts of "is it playable yet" also doesn't really prove anything, it just proves that players do come to this forum to ask that. The playercount has remained pretty stable over the past year, meaning the early drop was the people who wanted to try, and when they were finished with it dropped it. That tends to happen with games, with there being an initial heavy amount of players and then a massive drop off.
By contrast, Warband released with a smaller fanbase and the player stats have remained roughly the same or better literally 10 years later. It's even increasing as more and more people give up on Bannerlord.
Looking at the link that Bjorn posted, player counts are going down for WB. There is no show of a rise of people who are moving to WB away from BL. And we cannot compare the timespan between the games as BL has only been out for a year. And, in that year, the game is still going strong.
You can't compare BL to any other RPG or 4x or medieval combat or real-time tactics game because it incorporates all of those genres into one. BL can only be compared to WB and, by that metric, BL is a failure in every sense other than selling millions of copies to unsatisfied fans.
If you compare player counts between the two games, BL is a success compared to WB. It has increased the overall player count while still retaining that player count minus the initial drop-off.
Warband was one of the most popular games of all time and the only Bannerlord has avoided widespread condemnation is because uninformed fans outside these forums don't know that BL is a major step down from its predecessor.
Nice "we're the real fans" moment right there.
Yeah @Phantom425 may not be a vapormember of this forum, but in a short time he's absolutely established a track record of insulting long-time members with really shallow takes that ignore the very obvious realities of this situation.
I don't really remember insulting long-time members. If by insult then you mean me arguing the points that I argue, that isn't me insulting them. If they wish to take those things as insults, that's more on them then me. Also, I don't care to make a distinction between those who have been on the forum for a decade or those who have been on the forum for a week, my arguments will stay the same.
Like aggressively tone-policing the one thread in months to successfully prompt the devs to make a substantive change in their behavior. Or insisting that fixes to all our problems would be right around the corner if we only stopped complaining about how the problems haven't been fixed for over a year. Or asking us to scientifically prove really obvious things like "Bannerlord has been a disappointment to longtime fans", then retreating from that motte to the bailey of "Well we live in a universe of infinite possibilities so...".
For "tone-policing" my point was that there are better ways to get your point across then being angry, which I was correct in. Being angry in that thread got nothing done, and the letter that was made by the modders got the ball rolling. I wanted to make sure that actually effective means of communicating your wants would be used going forwards, not ones that would get nothing done. I also made the point to actually wait until the 1.6.0 patch before you would make your assumptions about it, which I was also correct in. Come the patch, and a good amount of progress had been made.

As for asking people to scientifically prove that BL was a disappointment to them, I don't believe I did that. If by that you mean my arguments against the game being a grift, I wasn't arguing against it being a letdown for fans, I was arguing against it being a scam. As for the success, I also stated that there was a distinction between being financially successful and being good. I also don't recall doing the whole "well we live in a universe of infinite possibilities so..." argument, so if you could quote it I can and will explain my intentions with what I said. I can say that I never once intended to use a Motte and Bailey argument.

Finally.
He gets points for being polite about it tho.
Damn right.
 

Phantom425

Sergeant
That’s because warband is not a single player game specifically? Multiplayer has taken up a large chunk, if not the majority of the player base.
The drop offs happen with a lot of games, even multiplayer. Just look at Halo MCC, that game also had a massive drop off, and subsequent drop offs when the other games would be released on it. I think the lack of drop offs for WB is that it didn't have the same hype as other games at the time. WB is very much a cult classic, that would take time to build up its reputation as a great game.
 

bodhi

Sergeant
My God, this thread is depressing. It's like listening to Radiohead, while smoking that cheap, paranoia inducing skunk, in a dank dark cave. :sad:
 

Bjorn The Hound

Grandmaster Knight
WBVCNWWF&SM&B
player counts are going down for WB.
7kWjx.png

Yes, it did go down but it stopped. You can zoom in the graphs by date. This graph starts Feb 24th 2020, the peaks at the start from fans "let's give Warband a one last ride". After release of BL, it did go down but it got stabilized 5000-7500 player range for one huge year. The game is still kicking. I would not be surprised if it starts to go down again but still it says something.
 

mrtats

Regular
M&BWBWF&SNW
I'm pretty sure no-one has claimed the mod is meant as a co-op campaign to begin with, even the developer has had to clarify his intention to a bunch of small-brains in the past. However, they're getting there, as they're soon to release factions of which players can pledge allegiance to within a few updates, and there's already ''Wildlands'' which is a PvP area in-game, as well as trading between players, making it more of an open-world RPG. Clearly they've had to recode things to work in the multiplayer. I find it funny when people expect this sole modder to have everything complete, plus more on day 1, especially when TW does, per your own rhetorics, obfuscate their code too. Anyway, BO has a rather clear roadmap on their discord compared to other studios.
TW does not obfuscate their code, you can inspect their code with dnspy or etc. easily. This shows that you do not know what you are talking about. It is Bannerlord Online dev/s that obfuscate their code. My issue is with people who use Bannerlord Online as an example to twist the TaleWorlds' quote on the co-op campaign. Their re-coding includes straight-up removal of vanilla systems and implementation of much more rudimentary ones, so they would work with a server. Bannerlord Online is not a full campaign and it is never going to be one.
 

bonerstorm

Veteran
It is odd that Warband does not have a release peak.
Warband was the hotly-anticipated hype train sequel to a cult hit game that started with a fanatical following and has retained that fanatical following a decade later - which is extremely rare for a SP game.

BL is a hotly-anticipated hype train sequel to a cult hit game that hemorrhaged userbase just like any other once-and-done SP game. And that was before the SP campaign was even finished. Not a good look.

The numbers are obviously a lot bigger for BL because it was a bigger release, but the player curves are pretty much inverted: WB gained users over time because of the potential of the game realized by mods and BL lost users rapidly because it didn't meet expectations.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: BL cannot be compared to any game but MB/WB because they're unique. They're not like any other RPG, FP Slasher, 4x, medieval sim or MP game out there - because they're all of those in one package. If BL wasn't such a giant disappointment on release, then it likely would have retained a much more fanatical playerbase than average as people continually contributed towards new, exciting development and this forum wouldn't be a raging dumpster fire of angst.
Rushing a release launch does not mean abandoning the game following release.
Never said they would. But I also wouldn't expect major unpaid expansions in content after release and - if you do - then you're high. If they try to finance implementation of basic features that were in WB or VS or mods with DLC, then I - and many others - sure as hell won't stand for it.

Early Access should be when basic features everybody expects to be incorporated and working in-game are introduced + ironed out. That hasn't happened and the balance of evidence says it won't.
It has increased the overall player count while still retaining that player count minus the initial drop-off.
LOL nope. The relatively paltry increases in BL playerbase from the all-time low in Dec is not accounted for by actual development - the big spikes in players correspond to steam sales and the small spikes correspond to hyped patches (when people come back to see if the game is playable yet - then leave when it isn't).
Nice "we're the real fans" moment right there.
You're welcome. As we've demonstrated to you repeatedly over the last few weeks, we know a lot more about this game and development process than you do - knowledge we're happy to share. Other whitepillers like you outside this forum usually know even less. There is a clear inverse relationship with knowledge of WTF is going on here vs hope for the game's future. It's not a flex; it's a fact.
I don't really remember insulting long-time members. If by insult then you mean me arguing the points that I argue, that isn't me insulting them.
You insult us by repeatedly telling us that we're impatient and unreasonable and lack understanding. You constantly bombard us with begign hypotheticals that might explain the situation while offering no evidence to back them up. You routinely ignore people who have patiently and diligently been grinding this forum for a year or even many years, while handwaving away ample evidence underpinning their negativity... as well as evidence you yourself have seen that TW will only make significant changes in their MO in response to massive community pressure.

I could find examples of you doing this in a particularly obnoxious way, but I'll provisionally concede the point - until I notice you doing it again.
the letter that was made by the modders got the ball rolling
That letter got 1 meaningless PR statement a day later... then 1 semi-detailed post of vague promises a couple weeks later... then one infuriatingly-vague statement 3 months later.

It was only when the forum exploded and a major modder ragequit and even reasonably-polite people said WTF that TW turned around a major patch + a purpose-built thread dedicated to solving the Open Letter's major issue.

The community begging for scraps in an open letter (which actually provoked a strong community response) got TW to do basically nothing for months. The even stronger community response after that polite letter was ignored prompted them to wake up and get to work. The latter was clearly a more proximate motivation for change than the letter.
My God, this thread is depressing. It's like listening to Radiohead, while smoking that cheap, paranoia inducing skunk, in a dank dark cave. :sad:
Well I was already there - but your comment actually brightened my day because your avatar reminded me of a much, much better game :love:
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
Warband was the hotly-anticipated hype train sequel to a cult hit game that started with a fanatical following and has retained that fanatical following a decade later - which is extremely rare for a SP game.
Uh... WB starts off at release with a three digit number...

edit: wait, that's actually pre-release, with release being 3000. It is weird because that is super-low for a game with as much exposure as Warband -- I saw copies on shelves at the exchange and software stores in the mall in Virginia -- and it stayed rock steady. Not increasing, not decreasing, just stable.

That's super strange and I'm pretty sure something else is going on than game quality because even 10/10 amazing games that are full of features see the same 90% drop as complete crap normally.
 
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It is odd that Warband does not have a release peak.
Indeed, it is. Like you said, most single player games have huge peak at release then drop. Warband is kind of anomaly here.
I could be totally wrong, but wasn't M&B and Warband a bit of a slow burn or sleeper? I don't think I heard about it until warband had been out some years and it seemed to steadily pick up popularity since.
 
I could be totally wrong, but wasn't M&B and Warband a bit of a slow burn or sleeper? I don't think I heard about it until warband had been out some years and it seemed to steadily pick up popularity since.
As i remember warband really took off when prince of macedon made a video about it. That got a huge influx of players and really got the ball rolling.
 

Bannerman Man

C# Sleuth
Knight
edit: wait, that's actually pre-release, with release being 3000. It is weird because that is super-low for a game with as much exposure as Warband -- I saw copies on shelves at the exchange and software stores in the mall in Virginia -- and it stayed rock steady. Not increasing, not decreasing, just stable.
That is probably explained by the fact that those numbers from SteamDB only count people playing through Steam (including those who purchase a key elsewhere and then redeem it through their Steam account, I believe). Physical copies and copies sold through other platforms (like through Taleworlds' website) wouldn't be reflected in those numbers, and since Steam wasn't as large of a platform back then, many people probably didn't get it through Steam.

It might also partly be a case of people within the M&B community overestimating its overall popularity/reach, when it may have been relatively obscure to people outside the community (at the time of launch at least).

I still agree with the other point that the steady decline of Bannerlord's player count isn't really anything unusual though. Most people that buy a game will move on to other games within a few months, with certain exceptions.

Edit: Unless you were being sarcastic about Warband's exposure/popularity and I didn't catch it. I'm not sure anymore lol.
 
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Phantom425

Sergeant
I've said it before and I'll say it again: BL cannot be compared to any game but MB/WB because they're unique. They're not like any other RPG, FP Slasher, 4x, medieval sim or MP game out there - because they're all of those in one package. If BL wasn't such a giant disappointment on release, then it likely would have retained a much more fanatical playerbase than average as people continually contributed towards new, exciting development and this forum wouldn't be a raging dumpster fire of angst.
BL is currently in EA. What this means is that players will most likely wait for the release of the game to really dig into it. An example of this would be DayZ Standalone. The player count was decreasing until the release of the game, where it is now on a steady rise. WB is a released game, BL isn't. BL, most likely, is not at the peak of its lifecycle yet in terms of playercount.
Never said they would. But I also wouldn't expect major unpaid expansions in content after release and - if you do - then you're high. If they try to finance implementation of basic features that were in WB or VS or mods with DLC, then I - and many others - sure as hell won't stand for it.

Early Access should be when basic features everybody expects to be incorporated and working in-game are introduced + ironed out. That hasn't happened and the balance of evidence says it won't.
I mean, for somethings I would, some I wouldn't. I highly doubt they are going to monetize features from WB, TW isn't as scummy as companies such as Paradox, but they will probably add some features for free. It isn't entirely out of the picture. However, if they do monetize small features, then I wouldn't stand for that either. However, we do not currently know their post-release monetization program, and while we can assume that they will release DLC, we cannot assume what will be in that DLC... besides elephants.

Early Access is when the game is not finished yet, but the core concepts are in the game. The game, at this point, is being ironed out and polished. Once the game is polished, and the desired features have been added, that is when a game leaves EA. A game does not enter EA being entirely polished, it leaves EA being entirely polished. What does that mean for the wait until release? I don't know, it could be half a year to a year and a half. However, the game in this current state is what an EA game looks like.
LOL nope. The relatively paltry increases in BL playerbase from the all-time low in Dec is not accounted for by actual development - the big spikes in players correspond to steam sales and the small spikes correspond to hyped patches (when people come back to see if the game is playable yet - then leave when it isn't).
Yeah, that does make sense. However, even between those the playerbase didn't entirely plummet. There is still a sizeable audience that continues to play this game between those times.
You insult us by repeatedly telling us that we're impatient and unreasonable and lack understanding. You constantly bombard us with begign hypotheticals that might explain the situation while offering no evidence to back them up. You routinely ignore people who have patiently and diligently been grinding this forum for a year or even many years, while handwaving away ample evidence underpinning their negativity... as well as evidence you yourself have seen that TW will only make significant changes in their MO in response to massive community pressure.
If I am being quite frank, when I was telling people that they were being inpatient, they were. While we did not know that the patch would come a week later, following the news people immediately jumped to conclusions. My point was to wait until the patch would release and be patient. Not waiting for that patch to come out and immediately making assumptions was being inpatient.

I've also always been trying to be understand of the anger. That's why I've never gone and said I don't understand why are you made the game is fine as is what is the big deal? I understand why people are angry, I disagree with how that anger is being used.
That letter got 1 meaningless PR statement a day later... then 1 semi-detailed post of vague promises a couple weeks later... then one infuriatingly-vague statement 3 months later.

It was only when the forum exploded and a major modder ragequit and even reasonably-polite people said WTF that TW turned around a major patch + a purpose-built thread dedicated to solving the Open Letter's major issue.

The community begging for scraps in an open letter (which actually provoked a strong community response) got TW to do basically nothing for months. The even stronger community response after that polite letter was ignored prompted them to wake up and get to work. The latter was clearly a more proximate motivation for change than the letter.
This is objectively false and has been denied by a dev. The update was made in progress following the thread, and there is no proof whatsoever to prove that the outrage had an effect on the update. I am inclined to believe Duh as he has no real reason to lie about that, and has been truthful in the past. The anger did nothing, and the thread that was made following that was already promised before the massive freakout and the modder ragequit. If you look at the 1.6.0 update and the modder letter and takeaway that anger like that gets anything done, you are taking away the wrong lesson. The lesson is that a coordinated, proper movement from prominent members of the community can and will get TW's attention to get things done.
 
eh it was whatever, to be honest multiplayer was hit pretty hard because of EA and around this time in warband development multiplayer was hitting its stride but who honestly knows a big youtuber could come revive multiplayer (see holdfast as a example) even though its not the best. They just need some writers for single player to give the world some lore.
 
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