Bannerlord MP is a disaster and garbage, Taleworlds MUST stop being stubborn and ignoring their own community

Are you agreeing with me?

  • Yes

    Votes: 141 66.2%
  • I cannot agree with everything (write in the comments below please)

    Votes: 25 11.7%
  • No

    Votes: 47 22.1%

  • Total voters
    213

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Rfoishag

Sergeant
Well... I played 700 hours only multiplayer. Currently I'm running tournaments also compete in tournaments and I do many other things in mp which I am not going to write all of them
My thoughts about game;

First of all there are new contents
2nd they are working hard even myself get frustrated sometimes and say that they are not
3rd Sp's player base is much bigger than mp so they should focus on sp ofc
4th No need private servers while many people still getting server crash they should focus on fixing their own game modes first


We organised clan tournament on EUDuel and guess what? As it is a normal TDM server, we should have to defend our tournament from people, who just ruined it. That was just ridiculous.
I don't think that's TW's fault it was yours decision and lead
About gamemodes, what do we have: chaotic TDM, boring Sieges, unbalanced Captain mode and Skirmish, mode for competitive players.
Also saying that isn't going to change anything do you have any advices? If you don't I'm sure TW is working on it and I don't think you can say that in 200 hour well I mean how many captain or skirmish matches did you played? Let competitive players decide such things.

I can't say TW is doing everything right the progress we have right now would be more but Bannerlord is not like any other game the nearest one is Warband which is also Mount&Blade game the biggest difference Warband is 10 years old game. I'm pretty sure Bannerlord will be perfect in at most 2 years.
A good progress needs time.
 
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Emil

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
3rd Sp's player base is much bigger than mp so they should focus on sp ofc
Tell me, wouldn't the multi-player be more popular if it wasn't :poop:?

Warband MP was strong for years and still is, meanwhile BL MP was almost entirely dead a month after launch. TW has a dream, and that's being as e-sport friendly on a massive scale as Dota, CS:GO and LoL, and that's why they took bad decisions like restricting class choices, etc. They will never realize their mistake and that the closest they'll come to professional international championships are those that their community already been yearly and weekly hosting on a voluntary basis since WB and NW ...and that it'd make more sense to support the pre-existing community rather than stomp on it.
 
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Rfoishag

Sergeant
I don't agree with you because I think that they will realise their mistakes AVRC is listening captain mode players ideas at Captain's League before and after updates.
I can't talk on behalf of skirmish players for now.
Tell me, wouldn't the multi-player be more popular if it wasn't :poop:?
I wouldn't say :poop: it is pretty much playable but as i said there are server issues and I forgot to mention the balance issue other than that private servers or more maps not the things there are so hard to do can be done after main issues solved.
TW has a dream, and that's being as e-sport friendly on a massive scale as Dota, CS:GO and LoL
Still early for that and for to be realistic I don't think Bannerlord can reach to those massive scales but it can be very well e-sport friendly and reach to good masses.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
I don't agree with you because I think that they will realise their mistakes
They haven't, any suggestion to change the class system or suggestions for additions to the class system were completely ignored. They only change balance stuff but never change anything that actually concerns how the class system works.

Deliberately ignoring or overlooking suggestions or putting "Hey this sounds good" and nothing comes out of it, is one of the biggest false hopes TW has given to us for the class system.

TW has no excuse for the class system, it's a complete joke of a system for a game released in 2021. Even mordhau a game released in 2019 has a better system.
 
Well... I played 700 hours only multiplayer. Currently I'm running tournaments also compete in tournaments and I do many other things in mp which I am not going to write all of them
My thoughts about game;

First of all there are new contents
2nd they are working hard even myself get frustrated sometimes and say that they are not
3rd Sp's player base is much bigger than mp so they should focus on sp ofc
4th No need private servers while many people still getting server crash they should focus on fixing their own game modes first
Ok
I don't think that's TW's fault it was yours decision and lead
Maybe because there is no Duel Servers with the consent for fighting?
Also saying that isn't going to change anything do you have any advices? If you don't I'm sure TW is working on it and I don't think you can say that in 200 hour well I mean how many captain or skirmish matches did you played? Let competitive players decide such things.

I can't say TW is doing everything right the progress we have right now would be more but Bannerlord is not like any other game the nearest one is Warband which is also Mount&Blade game the biggest difference Warband is 10 years old game. I'm pretty sure Bannerlord will be perfect in at most 2 years.
A good progress needs time.
YoU HaVeNt pLaYeD EnOuGh HoUrS tO TaLk AbOuT DaT GaMe KEKW
I am talking as a casual player, read the thread again, my bannerlord e-sportsman. People like you are ruining that game
 

Brandis.

Subforum Moderator
TW has a dream, and that's being as e-sport friendly on a massive scale as Dota, CS:GO and LoL

No they don't. It's impossible to compete with those games.

Considering that Bannerlord EA failed to garner much attention and is currently losing players, the only route to competitive success is to slowly turn the game around and figure out how to make multiplayer compelling to a broader audience by EA launch.

Examples of games that have grown from humble origins and no major monetary backing are Paladins and Brawlhalla. They've slowly grown into some esports prominence. Paladins is the 40th highest prize awarding game with over $2million in prizes; Brawlhalla is at #64 and continues to climb with over $1million. (https://www.esportsearnings.com/games)

The class system is horrific to balance yet simultaneously offers players low strategic depth. The most useful balance data is win-rate and pick-rate (and ban-rate but not in BL). This is categorically true in virtually all esports.

This is not true for Bannerlord. It's ridiculously complex. Let's consider some of the factors going into the Sturgia Brigands pick-rate:
  • If a player dies in a round, they could pick Brigands again and raise the pick-rate. However, since they died the first life on Brigand, the Brigand is hypothetically weaker despite having a higher pickrate, which would classically suggest that the unit is stronger.
  • A team with higher economy may run 3 Brigands while on low economy they run 2 Brigands. This increases the Brigand's pickrate in a decision based on an external factor (econ) instead of unit value.
  • In another external factor, players may choose the Brigand simply because they have 110 gold left. However, this is only relevant if Sturgia is the played faction and you have 110 gold leftover. If you were playing Vlandia, you would of had to taken a different route to have 110 gold remaining, altering the frequency when you have 110g remaining.
In the end, you're left with something like a Brigand pickrate of 8.29 per round, which is only completely accurate when comparing Brigands to Brigands, and no other unit, so it's kinda useless. But it's all you have, so, keep it I guess?

Winrate isn't any better. You take the 8.29 average Brigands per round and weight the winrate based off it. You end up with a flat winrate that represents many complex interactions and unique decisions that went into choosing the Brigand.

The core problem here is that due to gold, some troops are played when down in econ (losing) and some troops are played more when up in econ (winning). Nerfs and buffs to units that are chosen for external reasons -- losing teams buying cheaper units and winning teams buying more expensive units -- isn't balancing based on unit impact to winning but instead removing the impact of econ in general.

Let's say that Brigands are used by winning teams and Varyags are used by losing teams. This is because the Brigand allows three spawns at 330g and the Varyag fits 300g. (My mistake if these aren't the correct values.) This is NOT because the Brigand is overpowered or because the Varyag is underpowered. This is simply because they fit their respective team's gold optimally. If you were to nerf Brigands because of their winrate and nerf Varyags because of their lossrate, you wouldn't be balancing the classes. You'd be making 300g closer in value to 330g.

Let's compare this to League, who are transparent in their data and balance framework.

01_Balance_Framework_At_Launch_v1.jpg


Yeah. It's that simple.

League is thousands of times more complex (to put it lightly) than Bannerlord Skirmish, yet offers devs a clear balance direction.

(If worth noting, Riot has a secondary system to check and balance this framework. It evaluates additional "game health issues" to ensure champion diversity between levels of play and that champions don't get bunched up in some places and have low variety elsewhere.)

Unfortunately, the best method to balance Bannerlord is probably an amalgamation of winrate/pickrate -- and all the nightmares that entails -- and KDA/R -- which doesn't account for massive-impact low-KDA behaviors such as zone of threat, support potential (bowspeed/reload/damage may dramatically alter this factor due to light stuns on melee targets), cav bumps, bodyblocking (some horses do this much better than others), kicks that a teammate follows up on (movement speed, armor/shields impact success), and so on.

For example, in some cases stuns > damage. Such as a fast bow that constantly stuns with low damage compared to a slower bow with higher net DPS. Warband comes to mind where the Strong Bow had the highest DPS potential but other bows were favored due to speed. WARBAND BAD. Okay, sorry for mentioning it.

Due to all of the problems with KDA used in balancing you'd want to avoid it, but in Bannerlord, winrate/pickrate are both confuddled and poor numeric representatives of gamestate, but hopefully it's somewhere between the two.

Which gets back to the original statement: The class system is horrific to balance yet simultaneously offers players low strategic depth.

This ended up being really long for a reply. I might refine it and make it into a thread.
 
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Loyal2Odin

Sergeant
The class system is horrific to balance yet simultaneously offers players low strategic depth. The most useful balance data is win-rate and pick-rate (and ban-rate but not in BL). This is categorically true in virtually all esports.

League is thousands of times more complex (to put it lightly) than Bannerlord Skirmish, yet offers devs a clear balance direction.

This right here is the culprit for Bannerlord's disheartering development process. There are large differences between Bannerlord and League, for instance: in League a player is limited to the abilities of one's own champion, though entirely at liberty to choose any build (whether it be AD or AP). Comparatively, this is one and the same as saying you can play one specific class with attributes, and then buy any equipment you need. Now this is not realistic because a cavalry class shouldn't logically have access to crossbows when spawning, but it indicates the lack of freedom the player is given in this game. What's more is that the lack up freedom limits players in their ability to counter specific playstyles, making the game extremely dull. TaleWorlds have argued that a class system of the like is intended to make balancing easier, yet the exact opposite is happening. Decision making at TaleWorlds is indigent and far below what one might expect from a firm with the neccesary experience. In my estimation, this game is going to be dead on release. These are harsh words, but mark them down. On a more positive note, the ability to mod will inevitably allow us to enjoy more stable or fun ways in which this game can be played. As a result, we will probably just have to wait out the process until we get what we want.
 

hoonii

Squire
  • If a player dies in a round, they could pick Brigands again and raise the pick-rate. However, since they died the first life on Brigand, the Brigand is hypothetically weaker despite having a higher pickrate, which would classically suggest that the unit is stronger.
  • A team with higher economy may run 3 Brigands while on low economy they run 2 Brigands. This increases the Brigand's pickrate in a decision based on an external factor (econ) instead of unit value.
  • In another external factor, players may choose the Brigand simply because they have 110 gold left. However, this is only relevant if Sturgia is the played faction and you have 110 gold leftover. If you were playing Vlandia, you would of had to taken a different route to have 110 gold remaining, altering the frequency when you have 110g remaining.
A solution for this is the one life mode.
Imo one life mode would make skirmishes much more tactical/strategic, also it can provide a much better pick rate, win rate and KDA/R stats for the devs with which they can balance the game better.
But the thing is MP has received so many balance changes that there is little to no new content(duel mode that was in development for months is hopefully coming soon).
Also devs stated that they were planning to introduce new perk trees that are supposed to be passive perks, don't know how it will work but hopefully it will be a nice addition and help them balance the game more healthily.
 
they are trying as hard as the can,
they know they messed up bc their player base has crashed,
we will just have to wait for custom servers to fix this class restriction, poor game design etc

for now just put up with it so they can get the data they need to get the game operational for custom servers

the pure combat of the game feels good, outside of exploits but im sure that will get fixed

thank you for your hard work taleworlds,
good luck,

also think about samurai dlc,
no shields make melee alot more interesting,
although you need to make arrows actually deflect against armor for this to be good
 

Brandis.

Subforum Moderator
This right here is the culprit for Bannerlord's disheartering development process. There are large differences between Bannerlord and League, for instance: in League a player is limited to the abilities of one's own champion, though entirely at liberty to choose any build (whether it be AD or AP). Comparatively, this is one and the same as saying you can play one specific class with attributes, and then buy any equipment you need. Now this is not realistic because a cavalry class shouldn't logically have access to crossbows when spawning, but it indicates the lack of freedom the player is given in this game. What's more is that the lack up freedom limits players in their ability to counter specific playstyles, making the game extremely dull. TaleWorlds have argued that a class system of the like is intended to make balancing easier, yet the exact opposite is happening. Decision making at TaleWorlds is indigent and far below what one might expect from a firm with the neccesary experience. In my estimation, this game is going to be dead on release. These are harsh words, but mark them down. On a more positive note, the ability to mod will inevitably allow us to enjoy more stable or fun ways in which this game can be played. As a result, we will probably just have to wait out the process until we get what we want.
If I forgot to mention it above, I haven't played a single game of League, I'm just using it as an example because it's one of the only major games that is very transparent.

I think if item-based-progression was used in Bannerlord, they would be limited to the classes, and each class would have dynamic upgrade paths they could take based on enemies/allies.

Yeah, mods will surpass Skirmish immediately with the current state of things. I have hopes for an officially supported ranked mode being the dominant competitive mode. That's what powers a real competitive scene. But I don't see a path for TW to get there using the current iteration of Skirmish.

A solution for this is the one life mode.
Imo one life mode would make skirmishes much more tactical/strategic, also it can provide a much better pick rate, win rate and KDA/R stats for the devs with which they can balance the game better.
But the thing is MP has received so many balance changes that there is little to no new content(duel mode that was in development for months is hopefully coming soon).
Also devs stated that they were planning to introduce new perk trees that are supposed to be passive perks, don't know how it will work but hopefully it will be a nice addition and help them balance the game more healthily.

One of the given reasons TW implemented Skirmish and the class system was to make it easier to balance. However, when you take a quick look at the staples of game balance: pickrate, winrate, KDA, and you see that none of them work very well for Skirmish, you become very skeptical. Honestly, I feel sorry for the devs who were handed this system and told to balance it.

I didn't include perks in my post, but perks are pretty easy to balance if you're just looking at them perk vs perk for a particular class. Pickrate can absolutely be taken from there without any problems, because you could simply look at "well top players take this perk 95% of the time. It should probably be nerfed."

Of course, the next step up from perks, you're back at the problematic class vs class where pickrate and winrate are corrupted by a variety of factors not based on performance.
 
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Roadpork

Regular
they are trying as hard as the can,
they know they messed up bc their player base has crashed,
we will just have to wait for custom servers to fix this class restriction, poor game design etc

for now just put up with it so they can get the data they need to get the game operational for custom servers

the pure combat of the game feels good, outside of exploits but im sure that will get fixed

thank you for your hard work taleworlds,
good luck,

also think about samurai dlc,
no shields make melee alot more interesting,
although you need to make arrows actually deflect against armor for this to be good
love the samurai idea.
And the dlc.
I am willing to pay extra money as long as MP can be fixed by whatever
 
Yeah why does combat feel sluggish and slow compared to warband? A lot of nice additions to bannerlord but at its core the combat doesn't feel as crisp... the swing delay is very odd.
 
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