Bannerlord map too mountainous?

Too many mountains?

  • Yes.

    选票: 46 56.1%
  • No, I like it.

    选票: 14 17.1%
  • I don't mind it.

    选票: 22 26.8%

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All games played by me such as Age of Empires 2 and Medieval 2 not have desert effect for knights, which means as we can't sacrifice gameplay for realism of wish of someone which wish games to be as in history or books, not matter if Warband or Bannerlord to be 100% realistically because both are classified as almost-low fantasy and Calradia has unique laws regarding terrain. Map too mountainous? Hmm, hard question, I like personally Calradia of Warband and Bannerlord, both are same, I can't imagine mountainous battles in Bannerlord to be in Medieval 2, these are buggy and difficult to maintain your and AI forces, making game uninteresting. 
 
All games played by me such as Age of Empires 2 and Medieval 2 not have desert effect for knights, which means as we can't sacrifice gameplay for realism of wish of someone which wish games to be as in history or books, not matter if Warband or Bannerlord to be 100% realistically because both are classified as almost-low fantasy and Calradia has unique laws regarding terrain.
Most if not all of the Paradox Grand Strategy games do have terrain effects. Your point is moot.
 
Roccoflipside 说:
As much as I want to see some sort of road system implemented, it could be difficult to have the ai use the roads, but no only use the road system.
There was some minimal amount of a "road system" implemented in original M&B, much to my annoyance.  The last thing I want is to see that return.

Picture your small band of troops just having fought against a large Sea Raider party.  You've taken a few hits yourself, several of your Companions are wounded, and a third of your regular troops are out of action until they heal.  You head for town, to sell off loot and ransom off captives, as well as spend the night patching up the wounds and bruises.  That's when a  BIGGER sea raider party shows up, and decides that you've just become "easy pickings".  It turns into a race to town, with them in hot pursuit, until you reach a road that crosses your path.  As your party steps out onto the road, an argument develops: "We MUST travel along the road", and the party turns 100+ degrees to the side against your orders, actually closing the distance to the pursuit slightly while getting further from the objective.  You order the party to exit the road on the opposite side, but instead it turns 180 degrees and follows the road in the opposite direction, again losing its already slim lead on the pursuit.  You order the troops again, and they turn 180 degrees once again, following the road, as the Sea Raiders assault your party.  Obviously, following the road in a random direction is SO much more important than going somewhere.

Rivers would make good obstacles, and were used semi-effectively to restrict travel between some factions in M&B, if the AI wasn't parked in the castle overlooking the bridge or ford, as usual, and not bothering to stop the invaders.  You can see rivers on the map; they don't force your troops to make sudden changes of course unexpectedly, and in most cases were a far less annoying obstacle than a road crossing your path at a slight angle, unless a party got stuck at the pointy end of one.

I don't want to see roads if they're implemented in ANY way like they were in original M&B.
 
Duh 说:
2. You are not punishing the player for upgrading. You are punishing him for not using appropriate equipment or troops. Variation in troop utility can greatly add to the game and isn't really a novel concept - just not always all that easy to balance/implement. However, the linear upgrade mechanic you are describing (always better no matter the circumstance) gets boring fast (even if they look different the underlying mechanic would be the same) and ultimately lazy game design.

I agree. Linear upgrades kill any chance of tactical play in the lategame. The worst thing about a lot of mods is that they add super powerful troops or weapons with no downside except that they're expensive, meaning that once you acquire them there's nowhere else to go.

This is why I'm worries about the amount of heavy armour in this game. I'd prefer more specialised troops whose primary focus isn't just in the obvious stats like health and attack strength, but in speed or shield size or morale or even blocking skill, so that they fill a niche rather than just being generic powerhouses with no counter.

Honved 说:
Roccoflipside 说:
As much as I want to see some sort of road system implemented, it could be difficult to have the ai use the roads, but no only use the road system.
There was some minimal amount of a "road system" implemented in original M&B, much to my annoyance.  The last thing I want is to see that return.

The roads in warband were an idiotic afterthought that was more like a glitch than a mechanic. you almost certainly wont be seeing them again.
 
Armor doesn`t have to be heavy to be comparatively good. If you intend to campaign in the desert, why not invest in desert-gear? You could acquire a more suitable suit of arms with you hard earned money.

So how is adding a version of armor that is only useful in desert situations a way to make the game fun?
At the very least the player will just buy 2 sets of armor, and is just another money sink that does not add anything fun to the game.

Sarranids in WB are constantly the underdogs even on their own turf, because they lack the heavy hitters of Rhodoks, the arrow sponges of the Swadians and the mobility of the Khergits. WB`s been built in such a way that fielding light troops has no upside when compared to heavier troops.

Are we playing the same game? The Sarranids have cavalry that is equal to Swadian Knights and archers that can rival Vaegir marksmen, in exchange for weaker infantry. Sarranid infantry intentionally being weaker was a game design and balance choice. Also, Khergit mobility dosen't matter because they straight up suck in Warband.

This is more of a problem with the AI than troop stats, and nerfing other factions won't fix the bad AI.

I was talking morale penalties, for example, or reducing campaign map speed, or causing party attrition. Something in the vein of spending a night at sea in VC or entering the Fangorn Forest with orcs in The Last Days of The Third Age. I agree that hampering the player in battle would be really frustrating. As for battle I would say the existing speed and maneuver penalty on armored horses is enough.

Okay, maybe I can agree on this one.

You are not punishing the player for upgrading. You are punishing him for not using appropriate equipment or troops. Variation in troop utility can greatly add to the game and isn't really a novel concept - just not always all that easy to balance/implement. However, the linear upgrade mechanic you are describing (always better no matter the circumstance) gets boring fast

Mount and Blade is an action RPG many rpgs have skill and progression. If the player does not have stuff to work towards to better himself (like better armor and weapons), then it loses the RPG part of the game

A 30 damage sword is better than the rusty sword that only does 17 damage in Warband.

If we go by your definition of linear progression being boring(always better), is this bad game design that a 30 damage sword is better than one that does 17 damage?

That's part of the reason why people are annoyed with the MP perks n such.

The MP perks are similar to Call of Duty where you can choose to either have spears or better shields for your troops, and if you want them to do more damage or have more health. You can't have all of them at the same time. Not sure what was the point of bringing up perks when the point of the multiplayer perks, based of Callum's words, is to bring diversity to troops in the multiplayer.



 
But all discussions about Bannerlord become so fastidious, but many are just suggestions and ideas, some of them are unplausable, in end not matter's when will or not this game is released or if including Paradox's excentricities or from other RPGs, important is as we playing for have definitive conclusions. I not wish to hurt to none of yours, was just my opinion
 
ArnulfFloyd 说:
Map too mountainous? Hmm, hard question, I like personally Calradia of Warband and Bannerlord, both are same, I can't imagine mountainous battles in Bannerlord to be in Medieval 2, these are buggy and difficult to maintain your and AI forces, making game uninteresting.
Have you actually looked at the map? It's all mountain. That's why this thread exists.

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Mount and Blade is an action RPG many rpgs have skill and progression. If the player does not have stuff to work towards to better himself (like better armor and weapons)

A 30 damage sword is better than the rusty sword that only does 17 damage in Warband.

If we go by your definition of linear progression being boring(always better), is this bad game design that a 30 damage sword is better than one that does 17 damage?
Not sure how you got to arms from armor, but works just as well I guess. Yes, it would be bad game design if all we had was essentially the same sword with various textures that costs a bit more depending on its damage stat. It would be better game design if some excelled at damage, some at speed, some at reach. It would be better game design if some crushed, some cut, some pierced. It would be even better game design if they collided with the environment - giving short weapons more utility in close quarters and long weapons more utility in open areas. And so on. Naturally, this can be abstracted further to not just describe weapons or armor - but troops. For that I will simply quote Jacob as he has made the point quite well already.
I agree. Linear upgrades kill any chance of tactical play in the lategame. The worst thing about a lot of mods is that they add super powerful troops or weapons with no downside except that they're expensive, meaning that once you acquire them there's nowhere else to go.

This is why I'm worries about the amount of heavy armour in this game. I'd prefer more specialised troops whose primary focus isn't just in the obvious stats like health and attack strength, but in speed or shield size or morale or even blocking skill, so that they fill a niche rather than just being generic powerhouses with no counter.

The MP perks are similar to Call of Duty where you can choose to either have spears or better shields for your troops, and if you want them to do more damage or have more health. You can't have all of them at the same time. Not sure what was the point of bringing up perks when the point of the multiplayer perks, based of Callum's words, is to bring diversity to troops in the multiplayer.
We all know that the primary motivation is balance and accessability. Pretty sure that at least the former was mentioned by Callum as well. The point is that it is a downgrade or simplification in comparison with Warband and that (at least from my impression) is what quite a few people dislike. Linear upgrades like the ones we are discussing represent the most simplified possibility.
 
Mount and Blade is an action RPG many rpgs have skill and progression. If the player does not have stuff to work towards to better himself (like better armor and weapons), then it loses the RPG part of the game

Nobody is suggesting that there should be no linear progression at all. I just think it's completely missing the point of a video game if you don't have to make a choice. Games with overall linear item progression might as well not even give you the choice, since the better option makes all previous options completely obsolete.
An RPG isn't just stats and progression. By that metric almost every modern game is an RPG. A Role Playing Game suggests you can make choices based on the type of character you want to be, and there is some kind of synchronicity between the mechanics and your own in-universe character choices. In warband this was basically "do you want to cut people or pummel them into the ground" or "do you want to burn villages or not", but these tied into the mechanics and hence warband is more of an RPG than anything bethesda has put out in the past 10 years.

If some items are objectively better than others in every conceivable way except initial cost, it boils the game down to "get more money". The reason stats are even shown in warband is because more expensive items might not always be better, and you are expected to make a choice about which items to get (you might prefer speed over damage, or something), rather than just scrolling up to the most expensive one like a numbskull.
 
Oh, I've forgot how look this map but my opinion as maybe mountains has dissappeared by time of Warband due to ellosion :lol: :lol: :lol:. On a serious note, is weird as Calradia in Bannerlord has become Andes, Rocky or Himalayas
 
There should be a purpose for different equipment; the progression shouldn't be completely linear.  Granted, there are obviously going to be "better" and "worse" items, with the only advantage of the "worse" item being cost, but there should be a viable reason to wear lighter or less protective armor for the mobility, weight, upkeep cost, or long-term durability.  Some armor should be designed for specific terrain, or for use against a specific adversary's equipment because of their long-term animosity.  When everything is a linear progression, there's no point in playing any other way than "go for the best", and then everything else in the game just becomes clutter.

As said, when everything is "uber", nothing is.  Too many mods try to make the game "better" by boosting everything up to "elite" stats, which effectively removes any progression in difficulty.  One "popular" mod started me out with heavy chain mail and a heavy axe (hilariously, my character was supposed to be a poacher), and nearly all of the bandits were wearing either chain or plate armor, yet the armorers were selling the usual padded armor, leather caps, and other items that were of zero use to anyone in the mod.  Once you get the "good stuff" in such an inflated game, there's nowhere to go but down, and you still have more than half of the campaign to play out.  The M&B game developers clearly understood that, and I hope they still do, rather than listen to the players who want bigger numbers on everything because it somehow makes them feel like they're better at the game.  Sometimes, the worst thing a developer can do is take the player comments seriously.
 
Honved 说:
There should be a purpose for different equipment; the progression shouldn't be completely linear.  Granted, there are obviously going to be "better" and "worse" items, with the only advantage of the "worse" item being cost, but there should be a viable reason to wear lighter or less protective armor for the mobility, weight, upkeep cost, or long-term durability.  Some armor should be designed for specific terrain, or for use against a specific adversary's equipment because of their long-term animosity.  When everything is a linear progression, there's no point in playing any other way than "go for the best", and then everything else in the game just becomes clutter.

As said, when everything is "uber", nothing is.  Too many mods try to make the game "better" by boosting everything up to "elite" stats, which effectively removes any progression in difficulty.  One "popular" mod started me out with heavy chain mail and a heavy axe (hilariously, my character was supposed to be a poacher), and nearly all of the bandits were wearing either chain or plate armor, yet the armorers were selling the usual padded armor, leather caps, and other items that were of zero use to anyone in the mod.  Once you get the "good stuff" in such an inflated game, there's nowhere to go but down, and you still have more than half of the campaign to play out.  The M&B game developers clearly understood that, and I hope they still do, rather than listen to the players who want bigger numbers on everything because it somehow makes them feel like they're better at the game.  Sometimes, the worst thing a developer can do is take the player comments seriously.

True is your honest opinion
 
Honved 说:
Sometimes, the worst thing a developer can do is take the player comments seriously.

I would go further in that anybody who hasn't studied game theory even a little bit should be completely ignored in game critique. As with most media, what the audience wants and what the audience would actually enjoy are usually polar opposites.
 
Kentucky James 说:
I would go further in that anybody who hasn't studied game theory even a little bit should be completely ignored in game critique.
Easy for you to say with your PHD in Gameonomics.
 
Rainbow Dash 说:
So how is adding a version of armor that is only useful in desert situations a way to make the game fun?
At the very least the player will just buy 2 sets of armor, and is just another money sink that does not add anything fun to the game.

Are we playing the same game? The Sarranids have cavalry that is equal to Swadian Knights and archers that can rival Vaegir marksmen, in exchange for weaker infantry. Sarranid infantry intentionally being weaker was a game design and balance choice. Also, Khergit mobility dosen't matter because they straight up suck in Warband.

This is more of a problem with the AI than troop stats, and nerfing other factions won't fix the bad AI.

Sure, the AI not knowing what to do is a massive issue.  As for the Sarranids, hmm, their elite troops on just about any field are excellent. I am not questioning that. Same goes for all factions I would say. However, in my experience the Sarranid mid-tier troops, or the bulk of most Sarranid armies, aren`t really a match to for example Rhodok troops of the same tier. If the AI could use the Sarranid strong troops like light cavalry or javelin-armed skirmishers effectively, this wouldn`t be a issue.
However, since it can`t, I think it would simply be nice to give them a defensive advantage at least on the campaign map.

As for the armor, I would say it could be used to force the player to plan ahead for campaigns. If TW doesn`t want to force players to buy new armor suits, they might at least encourage you to, say, buy a covering tabard for your armor. Similarly, if you intend to campaign in the far north, I don`t think it`s an overstretch to make you purchase warm clothing. But I will state again that I`m mostly interested in campaign map effects.

I thought about proposing the addition of water as a resource that you have to worry about, but that would probably cause too much micromanaging.
 
If the AI could use the Sarranid strong troops like light cavalry or javelin-armed skirmishers effectively, this wouldn`t be a issue.
However, since it can`t...

This is where your argument starts falling apart.

We do have improved AI in Bannerlord. The new captain sergeant system in Bannerlord was literally made to help set up formations, manuevers and tatics, for this exact reason. Not to mention the improved individual AI itself during battle. Just watch some gameplay videos and you can see them in action.

This is why I still don't believe at all in adding in a mechanic that is essentially just a nerf in all other factions for a small buff that still ignores major issues in the old games like AI and certain tatics being useless, all for the sake of realism.
 
Rainbow Dash 说:
If the AI could use the Sarranid strong troops like light cavalry or javelin-armed skirmishers effectively, this wouldn`t be a issue.
However, since it can`t...

This is where your argument starts falling apart.

We do have improved AI in Bannerlord. The new captain sergeant system in Bannerlord was literally made to help set up formations, manuevers and tatics, for this exact reason. Not to mention the improved individual AI itself during battle. Just watch some gameplay videos and you can see them in action.

This is why I still don't believe at all in adding in a mechanic that is essentially just a nerf in all other factions for a small buff that still ignores major issues in the old games like AI and certain tatics being useless, all for the sake of realism.
I`m sceptical of the new AI until I see it, I will admit that freely.
I`m excited about the sergeant thing, but honestly game AI rarely lives up to the hype in action. BL battles will be very complex and making a good AI is hard in any case. And I`m not trying to say I don`t have faith in TW, it`s just that AI is one of the hardest parts of game development.

I also don`t see why you think campaign map debuffs and/or performance debuffs for heavy armor in desert conditions would nerf other factions. Their ability to perform campaigns in faraway lands would be diminished and perhaps made more expensive, but they could still do it and win.  And it works both ways too, of course. If it`s hard for Sturgia to invade the Aserai, it should also be hard for the Aserai to invade Sturgia.

Environment already plays a part in WB: Rhodok homelands tend to result in hilly battlefields where their combat style is very effective and the rolling plains and steppe of Swadia and Khergit provide excellent battle ground for cavalry. Sarranids don`t have such a natural advantage and neither really do Nords or Vaegirs. Adding some debuffs of mandatory preparations for waging war in extremely hot/cold climates would fix this.

And a couple nitpcks:

In the segment you quoted I was specifically referencing the poor AI in WB and how it`s inadequacies leave certain factions (notably Sarranids and Khergits) weaker than what I think would be engaging.
I haven`t and do not make propositions on the grounds of realism. Just what I think would make game play more challenging and the factions more balanced. I don`t consider realism a valid concept in fantastic settings (which Calradia is, low fantasy made up by history geeks is still made up) and even in historical games I think its far more important to be engaging and educational than to be realistic.
 
Rainbow Dash 说:
If the AI could use the Sarranid strong troops like light cavalry or javelin-armed skirmishers effectively, this wouldn`t be a issue.
However, since it can`t...

This is where your argument starts falling apart.

We do have improved AI in Bannerlord. The new captain sergeant system in Bannerlord was literally made to help set up formations, manuevers and tatics, for this exact reason. Not to mention the improved individual AI itself during battle. Just watch some gameplay videos and you can see them in action.

This is why I still don't believe at all in adding in a mechanic that is essentially just a nerf in all other factions for a small buff that still ignores major issues in the old games like AI and certain tatics being useless, all for the sake of realism.
The sergeant system only comes into play if the player partakes in the battle. Everything else will most likely still be handled via auto-resolve, which we cant really discuss until we get the algorithm. Furthermore, even if auto-resolve is done well that would not take care of balance by itself. Nor may absolute balance be the goal. At least in warband a number of things were randomly set at game start, which played a part in making for a more varied experience (at least iirc). One key factor for the way factions fared was "contested" land or fiefs. The more factions had a claim on one of your fiefs the more wars you could/would be involved in and that typically caused the decline of the faction in question... but sometimes could lead to it steamrolling the map as well.
 
Rainbow Dash 说:
So how is adding a version of armor that is only useful in desert situations a way to make the game fun?
At the very least the player will just buy 2 sets of armor, and is just another money sink that does not add anything fun to the game.
I don't know if you've heard of the game 80 Days, but it has something like this and it actually ties into the gameplay very well. Basically, the game is a choose your own adventure about planning routes, finding the quickest, easiest way to get around the world, and you can get certain items at markets and shops that help reduce travel fatigue (I don't know if that's what it's actually called ) Sometimes you'll be in a situation where there's a route that doesn't cost as much fatigue but turns out to be longer, and there's a shorter route that costs more fatigue. However, if you have the proper items in your inventory you'll be able to take the shorter route with out taking that much of a fatigue hit, and also possibly finding an interesting story arc that you wouldn't have found had you taken the other route.
 
Kentucky James 说:
Nobody is suggesting that there should be no linear progression at all. I just think it's completely missing the point of a video game if you don't have to make a choice. Games with overall linear item progression might as well not even give you the choice, since the better option makes all previous options completely obsolete.

This, choices choices choices. So many games miss the point and provide the minimum amount of variety to give the illusion of having a choice. I'd really love it if different armors, horses weapons etc had different benefits and downsides.

The enemy uses lighter troops? You might follow his steps and try to go lighter, or double down and turn your soldiers into human porcupines. Perhaps the enemy uses his speed to attack your supply routes? So you go straight to their capital hoping for a quick victory, or set up a fleet that feeds your army without enemy intervention, or maybe you go full scorched earth to see if you can force your rival into a pitched battle.
 
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