Bannerlord infantry movement needs slower strafing

[yedrellow]

One thing that caught my eye in regards to the recent bannerlord devblog is the below gif

Something that is weird about this is the way that people seem to be able to move sideways at almost the same speed they move forwards. The two polearm users in the foreground show the consequences of this. Both people are able to disengage and re-engage continuously rather than being stuck in a continuous engagement. This sort of movement has existed in the past in the form of War of the Roses, and personally I believe that it is inferior to the form of movement we have seen in warband.

For those unfamiliar, side-strafing in warband is almost at a walking pace, and backward movement is also significantly slower than forward movement. This walking is superior to the jogging sideways movement as it forces people to turn their back to attempt to disengage; it is impossible to merely strafe and turn away.  Changing this movement will also help remove potential issues with long reach kiting, as it will allow people with shorter reach to close distance more efficiently. I can't tell how slow the backwards movement is from this .gif, but I am not discounting the need to tinker with that as well.

 

[MadLad]

The people look totally weightless.

They can jump, sprint, hit easily, like they aren't wearing 30 pound armor.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

If armour weighed you down to the point where you couldn't sprint at all, you're either too unfit for the army or the armour doesn't function properly. Modern soldiers carry even more weight than that but they're expected to be just as active.

 

[Bjorn The Broken]

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They can move as much as a naked man would.

Edit:

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[yedrellow]

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They can move as much as a naked man would.

Edit:

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This is not an argument about realism at all, it's an argument of gameplay. If people can side-strafe almost as quickly as they can move forward, then there is very little forcing people to commit to combat. If people aren't forced to commit, they can just quickly strafe in and out with long reach weapons and poke for hits, something that isnt particularly satisfying for combat. This is why the two combatants in the foreground are able to naturally circle purely through strafing.

 

[Sundeki]

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They can move as much as a naked man would.

Edit:

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While the videos you show are definitely the case, you try doing that after being on the march for days or weeks, lugging yourself back and forth across the battlefield in 60kg of armor, fighting half a dozen people for hours on end and try and move like that. Now if the game represents itself in a certain manner, e.g un unrealistic battle arena, then you're probably right, but the thing that Mount and Blade tries to achieve is a certain level of realism to the best of the ability and capability of computing power at that time. I think that the representation of the real world in the game should probably be a middle point somewhere between the rested people in the first video and absolute zero. That's just my opinion.

But ultimately what yed was trying to get across, near as I can tell, is that the sideways and backwards movement seem to be at roughly the same speed as the forward movement, which is unacceptable when you take into account the incredibly slow attack animations.

 

[Scarf Ace]

隐藏

They can move as much as a naked man would.

Edit:

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Aside from the obvious fact that this hasn't got much to do with realism, you're fundamentally missing out on something here:
Footwork. You can't move sideways as quickly as you can move forward without turning your entire body and looking to your side. Obviously doing that as somebody's trying to hit you with a Dane axe is a bad idea.
The problem here is mostly down to crossing your legs: If you strafe in the speediest way possible, you'll make yourself unstable and unable to properly defend yourself. You're vulnerable to getting knocked down or tripped, and from a general body-mechanical perspective it really hampers you. It's always like this, whether you're fighting in unarmed combat, fencing with dinky smallswords or fighting with bigass polearms.
Thus, when moving sideways in melee combat, you have to always balance speed versus stability, and so from both a realism and gameplay perspective I'd argue it's better to have sideways movement be significantly slower than forward movement.

 

[Bjorn The Broken]

I do not deny that. I just share those videos for MadLad's post. It does not matter if you are naked or wearing armor, when you move sideways you wil be slower.

 

[Sundeki]

I do not deny that. I just share those videos for MadLad's post. It does not matter if you are naked or wearing armor, when you move sideways you wil be slower.

Oh I see, my mistake.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

While the videos you show are definitely the case, you try doing that after being on the march for days or weeks, lugging yourself back and forth across the battlefield in 60kg of armor, fighting half a dozen people for hours on end and try and move like that.

In no battle are soldiers expected to be in constant combat for hours and hours. Melee clashes might last for a few minutes until one side either breaks or withdraws, and this would continue over and over during the course of a battle. Even with no armour, you'd probably die of exhaustion if you were in full combat for an hour.
On top of that, battle manoeuvres might take place over days or weeks before any engagement. It wasn't common for armoured footsoldiers to march to battle and engage straight away, not least because of how easily formations break up when advancing across your average field.

 

[Duh]

While the videos you show are definitely the case, you try doing that after being on the march for days or weeks, lugging yourself back and forth across the battlefield in 60kg of armor, fighting half a dozen people for hours on end and try and move like that.

In no battle are soldiers expected to be in constant combat for hours and hours. Melee clashes might last for a few minutes until one side either breaks or withdraws, and this would continue over and over during the course of a battle. Even with no armour, you'd probably die of exhaustion if you were in full combat for an hour.
On top of that, battle manoeuvres might take place over days or weeks before any engagement. It wasn't common for armoured footsoldiers to march to battle and engage straight away, not least because of how easily formations break up when advancing across your average field.

Not to mention that only the heaviest of plate would reach 60kg worth of weight (used in tourneys). Regular soldiers were much more likely to carry the same or even less than modern soldiers (around 28kg).

This is not an argument about realism at all, it's an argument of gameplay.

It does seem like some people are arguing "muh realism". In terms of gameplay, I find it quite difficult to judge whether the current strafing speed is well designed without having played it. I do think that slower movement can enhance a certain game style (see Vikingr f.e.), but that may not be what TW is aiming for.

 

[lolbash]

The people look totally weightless.

They can jump, sprint, hit easily, like they aren't wearing 30 pound armor.

no

隐藏

They can move as much as a naked man would.

Edit:

隐藏

Aside from the obvious fact that this hasn't got much to do with realism, you're fundamentally missing out on something here:
Footwork. You can't move sideways as quickly as you can move forward without turning your entire body and looking to your side. Obviously doing that as somebody's trying to hit you with a Dane axe is a bad idea.
The problem here is mostly down to crossing your legs: If you strafe in the speediest way possible, you'll make yourself unstable and unable to properly defend yourself. You're vulnerable to getting knocked down or tripped, and from a general body-mechanical perspective it really hampers you. It's always like this, whether you're fighting in unarmed combat, fencing with dinky smallswords or fighting with bigass polearms.
Thus, when moving sideways in melee combat, you have to always balance speed versus stability, and so from both a realism and gameplay perspective I'd argue it's better to have sideways movement be significantly slower than forward movement.

I can already see the battles playing out. Feinting is nerfed in Bannerlord. The melee is also significantly slowed down compared to warband. People wearing heavier armor now run significantly slower compared to the “lighter” infantry. And now side strafing is about the same speed as running foward.

In other words, wearing nothing is going to be the meta, because wearing armor is a massive disadvantage.

Bannerlord multiplayer is not looking good at all.

Until we can get a playable beta to see how the changes actually effect gameplay, I guess I won’t be buying Bannerlord for the multiplayer.

 

[Kehlian]

隐藏

The people look totally weightless.

They can jump, sprint, hit easily, like they aren't wearing 30 pound armor.

no

隐藏

They can move as much as a naked man would.

Edit:

隐藏

Aside from the obvious fact that this hasn't got much to do with realism, you're fundamentally missing out on something here:
Footwork. You can't move sideways as quickly as you can move forward without turning your entire body and looking to your side. Obviously doing that as somebody's trying to hit you with a Dane axe is a bad idea.
The problem here is mostly down to crossing your legs: If you strafe in the speediest way possible, you'll make yourself unstable and unable to properly defend yourself. You're vulnerable to getting knocked down or tripped, and from a general body-mechanical perspective it really hampers you. It's always like this, whether you're fighting in unarmed combat, fencing with dinky smallswords or fighting with bigass polearms.
Thus, when moving sideways in melee combat, you have to always balance speed versus stability, and so from both a realism and gameplay perspective I'd argue it's better to have sideways movement be significantly slower than forward movement.

I can already see the battles playing out. Feinting is nerfed in Bannerlord. The melee is also significantly slowed down compared to warband. People wearing heavier armor now run significantly slower compared to the “lighter” infantry. And now side strafing is about the same speed as running foward.

In other words, wearing nothing is going to be the meta, because wearing armor is a massive disadvantage.

Bannerlord multiplayer is not looking good at all.

Until we can get a playable beta to see how the changes actually effect gameplay, I guess I won’t be buying Bannerlord for the multiplayer.

Well, if wearing no armor you die in one or two hits, while heavy armor allow you to live more than twice that, don't worry, heavy armor will still be meta

 

[lolbash]

隐藏

The people look totally weightless.

They can jump, sprint, hit easily, like they aren't wearing 30 pound armor.

no

隐藏

They can move as much as a naked man would.

Edit:

隐藏

Aside from the obvious fact that this hasn't got much to do with realism, you're fundamentally missing out on something here:
Footwork. You can't move sideways as quickly as you can move forward without turning your entire body and looking to your side. Obviously doing that as somebody's trying to hit you with a Dane axe is a bad idea.
The problem here is mostly down to crossing your legs: If you strafe in the speediest way possible, you'll make yourself unstable and unable to properly defend yourself. You're vulnerable to getting knocked down or tripped, and from a general body-mechanical perspective it really hampers you. It's always like this, whether you're fighting in unarmed combat, fencing with dinky smallswords or fighting with bigass polearms.
Thus, when moving sideways in melee combat, you have to always balance speed versus stability, and so from both a realism and gameplay perspective I'd argue it's better to have sideways movement be significantly slower than forward movement.

I can already see the battles playing out. Feinting is nerfed in Bannerlord. The melee is also significantly slowed down compared to warband. People wearing heavier armor now run significantly slower compared to the “lighter” infantry. And now side strafing is about the same speed as running foward.

In other words, wearing nothing is going to be the meta, because wearing armor is a massive disadvantage.

Bannerlord multiplayer is not looking good at all.

Until we can get a playable beta to see how the changes actually effect gameplay, I guess I won’t be buying Bannerlord for the multiplayer.

Well, if wearing no armor you die in one or two hits, while heavy armor allow you to live more than twice that, don't worry, heavy armor will still be meta

The light armor guy can run up to the heavy armor guy, smack him a few times, then easily run away. The heavy armor will not be able to catch up for a counter attack. This is already bad enough.

What makes this worse is that the light infantry guy can die around 6 times before he is out of the round. The heavy armor can only spare 2.


Of course this is all speculation, and only a beta can change our minds, but overall, theres alot more bad stuff to think about than good.

 

[Varrak]

Some people even asked TW to implement assassins creed's dodge because right/left/back movements are so slow, and now people complain about the movement speed of sideways. It's really hard to please this community 

For me, i will wait until i play the game and see if gameplay is fun or not.

 

[lolbash]

Some people even asked TW to implement assassins creed's dodge because right/left/back movements are so slow, and now people complain about the movement speed of sideways. It's really hard to please this community

people that only play singleplayer and GK_tdm =/= people that actually play the multiplayer enough to hold their ground and understand basic components of the combat that keep you alive like footwork and speed

 

[Ratvioli]

Agreed entirely with OP.

 

[wormydowg]

Some people even asked TW to implement assassins creed's dodge because right/left/back movements are so slow, and now people complain about the movement speed of sideways. It's really hard to please this community

How do you know if the community is pleased or not? Its not like people who are content with the game post about it.

Normal happy people don't post, and very opinionated and sometimes ignorant people (Maybe they are young, or don't know how hard game developing is) post a lot more. so in reality, all those who complained about dodging were probably just a handful of individuals.

I wonder how many people view the forums but don't have an account or don't post.

Rant

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I am not going to go as far as to call them ignorant, but if they actually used the words Assassins creed, Dodging, "Mount and blade and Should adopt" in the same sentence. Then.... are you sure they have even played a mount and blade game? How would that even work? Dodging only works on 1v1 fighting games such as batman, assassins creed, sleeping dogs.... This is 500 v 500? you going to implement dodging for the AI? They do an amazing job as it is, There have been plenty of times where id swing and the AI would simply step back and then Gut me. It could be better, but its one of the best systems iv ever seen out of any sword game.

 

[Varrak]

Some people even asked TW to implement assassins creed's dodge because right/left/back movements are so slow, and now people complain about the movement speed of sideways. It's really hard to please this community

How do you know if the community is pleased or not? Its not like people who are content with the game post about it.

Normal happy people don't post, and very opinionated and sometimes ignorant people (Maybe they are young, or don't know how hard game developing is) post a lot more. so in reality, all those who complained about dodging were probably just a handful of individuals.

I wonder how many people view the forums but don't have an account or don't post.

Rant

隐藏

I am not going to go as far as to call them ignorant, but if they actually used the words Assassins creed, Dodging, "Mount and blade and Should adopt" in the same sentence. Then.... are you sure they have even played a mount and blade game? How would that even work? Dodging only works on 1v1 fighting games such as batman, assassins creed, sleeping dogs.... This is 500 v 500? you going to implement dodging for the AI? They do an amazing job as it is, There have been plenty of times where id swing and the AI would simply step back and then Gut me. It could be better, but its one of the best systems iv ever seen out of any sword game.

It's a relative thing. A guy who wanted AC's dodging in Bannerlord may very well call you things as you called him. But this is a discussion between you and him.

Personally, i will wait until i play the game and see if gameplay is fun or not. In realistic way, a person should not be able to sideways as fast as he can move forward, but i don't really care realism as long as dragons wouldn't fly all around with fireballs

 

[lolbash]

Can we stop talking about someone that does not exist and focus in the issue at hand, which is strafing that is going to hurt the combat for bannerlord

Thank you