Bannerlord Duels: Predictions vs. Reality

[Smug_Alpaca]

im refering to the main statement, once people are used to the block delay fights will take far longer
secondly the kicking part, never experienced any spinning except vs nw players who used the same movement as they would with a musket

I did not find any of it to be wrong, and found it to be pretty in line with my own experiences on the duel server. Yes, you can adjust to the block delay, but there are still feints/animations that can be nearly unblockable due to the current mechanics. Huge swing arcs cause bad footwork to go unpunished, and dueling has proven a somewhat low skill ceiling in this game.

Do you care to elaborate more on any of your statements?

 

[Caps]

I did not find any of it to be wrong, and found it to be pretty in line with my own experiences on the duel server. Yes, you can adjust to the block delay, but there are still feints/animations that can be nearly unblockable due to the current mechanics. Huge swing arcs cause bad footwork to go unpunished, and dueling has proven a somewhat low skill ceiling in this game.

Do you care to elaborate more on any of your statements?

Warbands combat never was the cream of the crop aswell, it had its clunkiness aswell even if it was far smoother than bannerlord. So you needed some time to adjust to it and learn what you can do or not.

For the kicking watch argentums kicking videos.

 

[RCC_God]

Warbands combat never was the cream of the crop aswell, it had its clunkiness aswell even if it was far smoother than bannerlord. So you needed some time to adjust to it and learn what you can do or not.

For the kicking watch argentums kicking videos.

Warband combat was the cleanest and the best of its genre however

 

[Alyss]

warband combat was skill based.

In warband there were basically 3 types of duellist: offensive, defensive, and counteroffensive. All three had their strengths and weaknesses, then some top players created their own style early in the game, before other top players arrived and created new styles. Basically from 2010 to 2016/2017 the styles evolved a lot. I don't think it will happen with current bannerlord combat system. Only viable style is ultra offensive, since counter-attacking in bannerlord is ultra risky, same as defensive style since block speed is way inferior to attack speed. The styles are already limited in the dawn of the game.

 

[Squirrelfart]

@Hans 77 I basically agree with all your points. Good post.

As for my thoughts, I really do think Bannerlord really ****ed up the core of Warband's system which was the back-and-forth tempo of a fight.

It's extremely telling when you watch or fight in a Warband duel and all you hear is the clanging of steel because for each and every moment in the duel, someone gains and loses initiative, and there's always an incentive to try to swing and there's always an incentive to try to block, and that preserves the back and forth of the duel (since blocking gives you frame advantage).

For me, the most enjoyable part of any duel was the constant back-and-forth, sort of rhythmic structure, until someone made a mistake and ****ed up. It's hard to describe what it's like trying to maintain your time-based footing in a duel, but thanks to the relevance of the tempo and its importance, fighting in a Warband duel (at least at my skill level) was constant, demanding, almost rhythmic, and extremely engaging.

Bannerlord duels just...don't have this. Why the hell would I even try to block if there's a ridiculous delay, and I can't know for sure if my block will come up in time thanks to 20 million variables that all affect its speed? Why the hell would I even try to interrupt someone's feint and punish them for not being aware of their initiative window if my swings are so ****ing slow and feints are so ****ing fast? Why the hell would I try to block someone's feint if I can just turn around and walk for a few seconds to get out of range, and blocking it is impossible?

Why give myself over to the tempo of the fight if doing so is going to get me killed 95% of the time? The optimal strategy is to constantly s-key and stay out of range because getting into the actual tempo of a fight is just going to get you killed. And the tempo of the fight was the most enjoyable and engaging part of Warband, and here it's just gone. Duels are 5-second ballerina shenanigans about who can get close enough first and spam their unreadable feints until the other person dies.

Although that's just my opinion.

 

[yedrellow]

The only point I'd disagree on is the kicks. If you hold w in to someone and kick (which you can do from feint or combo feint), you can follow up with left-strikes pretty reliably. It's to the point where if you figure it out kicks are pretty problematic to deal with, as you can catch people walking away.

 

[Gambles]

I've only just started really playing a lot more multiplayer after growing tired of single player bugs and what not. Although mostly captain mode when I do end up in other modes or fighting guys 1v1 on there it's always the same tactic they use of spinning in a circle swinging in 360's and it looks absolutely retarded lol although it works on my like half of the time cause the movement is kind of erratic and I just lose track of them if they hug me and do it. If I back off a lot of the time I can just watch them spin around in like figure 8's still trying to hit me when I'm like 10 feet away, it's pretty hilarious looking lol.

 

[Hans 77]

For me, the most enjoyable part of any duel was the constant back-and-forth, sort of rhythmic structure, until someone made a mistake and ****ed up. It's hard to describe what it's like trying to maintain your time-based footing in a duel, but thanks to the relevance of the tempo and its importance, fighting in a Warband duel (at least at my skill level) was constant, demanding, almost rhythmic, and extremely engaging.

I wasn't eloquent enough to accurately describe what Warband dueling is like, but this is exactly how I feel. The rhythm is the key. There's this ebb and flow that feels so effortless and organic. It's what makes Warband duels feel so "good". A ballroom dance if you will

Duels are 5-second ballerina shenanigans about who can get close enough first and spam their unreadable feints until the other person dies

Bannerlord duels feel the opposite of a well-executed dance. They're more like these herky jerky, hold-your-breath kamikaze runs. It's unfortunate.The dueling feels so shallow at the moment. Hopefully with the ironing out of movement and mechanics I hope it can improve over time.

 

[Squirrelfart]

I wasn't eloquent enough to accurately describe what Warband dueling is like, but this is exactly how I feel. The rhythm is the key. There's this ebb and flow that feels so effortless and organic. It's what makes Warband duels feel so "good". A ballroom dance if you will

"Dance" is a good word for it. There's a lot of footwork relevance, but also tempo and rhythm. An enemy duelist is a bit like a dancing partner but you're both trying to get the other to screw up and instead of music in the background it's both of you trying to cave in each other's skulls with swords. It's an excellent comparison.

Bannerlord duels feel the opposite of a well-executed dance. They're more like these herky jerky, hold-your-breath kamikaze runs. It's unfortunate.The dueling feels so shallow at the moment. Hopefully with the ironing out of movement and mechanics I hope it can improve over time.

The dueling is indeed super shallow. I think what Alyss said about player styles is probably the best example of how boring dueling is. Everybody fights the same, while Warband lets you create sort of your own fighting identity, or style. Even in some random duel server in Warband, you can see the different ways people fight. Bannerlord's current iteration of duel isn't as unique or complex, and everybody fights the same because there's a clear, and easily obtainable optimal way to play (ballerina spinning and unreadable feints).

It's quite sad. I hope TW can get their head out of their ass and make it better.

 

[Shemaforash]

Nice post, mimics my feelings accurately.

Warband is still the GOAT of medieval combat systems, bannerlord is worse than its contenders (for honor... even mordhau and last oasis)

 

[Caps]

Nice post, mimics my feelings accurately.

Warband is still the GOAT of medieval combat systems, bannerlord is worse than its contenders (for honor... even mordhau and last oasis)

mordhau has pretty decent combat wdym, especially if you compare it to chiv and chiv2

KEKW look at this in 2020....

 

[RCC_God]

mordhau has pretty decent combat wdym, especially if you compare it to chiv and chiv2

KEKW look at this in 2020....

From what I heard form chiv pros is that mordhaus a dumbed down chivalry. Mordhau has a huge problem rn with a community exodus even with a strong mp scene

 

[Shemaforash]

I'm comparing those games to Warband, chivalry is just a funny concept where people who don't care about combat being skillbased can have fun. This is not a mordhau discussion and I don't have much more input as I still haven't played it. Can't speak for chivalry 2 don't know anything about it, do you block attack directions now or is it still just completely timing based?

Watching some of the vids, being able to toss weapons and such is 100% funny, even for people who are bad at combat.

 

[๖Kern]

I think Mordhau has a great combat system, but I don't think it's comparable to Warband's. Blocking is basically just based on timing, no directional blocking involved, there're different mechanics and it's great combat for duels, but I doubt it is objectively superior to Warband combat.

 

[Caps]

I think Mordhau has a great combat system, but I don't think it's comparable to Warband's. Blocking is basically just based on timing, no directional blocking involved, there're different mechanics and it's great combat for duels, but I doubt it is objectively superior to Warband combat.

the teamwork is really wonky there and requires some gimmick mechanics to even somewhat work, you still need to block in the general direction

 

[grimsight]

In Warband, the level of skill taking place in duels reached as high as Mt. Everest. Skilled players had many tools to work with to overcome their opponent, and their opponent in turn had all the tools needed to nullify their them. This produced some very exciting (and in some cases very long) duels. Fights between highly skilled duelists could be quite lengthy affairs, and each second that passed only added to the suspense. On display was high level feinting, high level blocking, brinkmanship in the form of distance and timing "jousts" where both players would swing when they *just* within weapon range of one another, and meta-gaming (i.e. baiting out a kick, when to go for the spam when you think the opponent is going to feint, when to chamber, when to hold your swing for a fraction of a second when you think your opponent is going to try and chamber you). In all, this created such a deep and complex dueling culture that Warband enjoys like no other.

This is a reeeeeally great summation of Warband dueling. There is so much depth which is missing in Bannerlord. To be frank it took hundreds of hours of practice to begin to grasp what is going on in Warband's combat, and to understand why the gameplay was so fair and skill based

I don't think TW has developers who have reached that level of skill to understand or recreate it. The next best thing TaleWorlds can do is listen to the the Warband vets and take their feedback seriously. Which they aren't doing. What a shame

 

[Gambles]

From what I heard form chiv pros is that mordhaus a dumbed down chivalry. Mordhau has a huge problem rn with a community exodus even with a strong mp scene

The dev's of mordhau removed all the exploit crap from chiv, such as the extreme ends of drags and such. You can't do that classic weird looking bs like stabbing a guy in the head by looking up and stabbing him with an overhead attack from your back, real weird ****. They put a turn cap when swinging and stuff like that. Basically they got rid of all the **** that made chiv combat look silly. Towards the end of chiv's life the only people playing online looked like clowns exploiting these weird glitches constantly.

Mordhau's mass exodus can probably be attributed to very little content being added very slowly. Also the game modes tend to get super repetitive very quickly, and as people get better at the game they eventually chase out everyone that is even a slight bit casual. That and there's just not much of a clan scene. I played Chiv a good deal but played the hell out of mordhau for months, unfortunately it just got old eventually as even the new maps felt kinda crap with badly balanced spawn points, or open areas where you'd get run down by horses constantly, great combat in my opinion but lacking everywhere else.

 

[Cyber]

Caps is not entirely wrong. If you don't think kick slashing is viable in BL you unfortunately just don't know what you're talking about.

I sympathize with the rest of your points, although I'd like to see block delay reduced first, and give people a little time to get better before "nerfing" feints. Current situation is not optimal, but I prefer it to having almost every feint being easily readable.

 

[RCC_God]

The problem is that some feints are so insane that you don’t have tome to react. I’m a guy that could block just about anything, but some of the feints just feel unfair in bannerlord, I never got that in warband against anyone

 

[Caps]

once people start actually tryharding they will be able to block most of the feints, or just spam so the enemy cant feint them in first place. Your enemy can only spam feints if you let him do it. The ability of punishing it is tied to stuns though which makes it somewhat random.